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Class Changes: Medicine Operative / Sawbones Scoundrel

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Scoundrel / Operative
Class Changes: Medicine Operative / Sawbones Scoundrel
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Kyuuu's Avatar


Kyuuu
08.18.2017 , 12:28 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by ultimarb View Post
so nerfing burst heal and aoe heal for sorcs was ok?
with logic they use sure, by there logic "at target dps" means it over performing need to be nerfed, logic rest world uses it means there performing "at target dps"

funnypat's Avatar


funnypat
08.18.2017 , 12:30 PM | #22
It didn't render the class useless, please if you still think a pure op medicine nerf without giving them a minor boost on burst would be the same as a sage/sorc nerf - get one up to 70 and try healing yourself.
The healing on operative is "a little" more complex than the other 2.

So if you want to complain how unfair it is, at least know what you're complaining about.

I bet you can't even do 4k hps if you tried.
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masterceil's Avatar


masterceil
08.18.2017 , 12:30 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Hey folks,

As we continued to look at the changes we had planned, supporting data, and player feedback, we have decided that we are not going to be making any changes to Operative and Scoundrel healing in 5.4. Right now, these Disciplines are overperforming in HPS and we do feel that they will need to be nerfed at some point. However, even though their HPS is high, due to the Disciplines lack of burst healing it can be quite challenging to keep players, especially tanks, alive. For that reason we are going to hold off on any broader HPS nerfs until we address the burst healing issues of the Class.

We are going to take a look at this for 5.5 and see if that will be the time to make these adjustments. Once we get closer to that update I will let you know what our plans are for Medicine and Sawbones! Thanks everyone.

-eric

Eric, yall need to look at EHPS/effective EHPS (Absorption+actual heals for Seer/Corruption), not raw HPS output. I'm glad you backed away from changes in 5.4, but it worries me that you're still looking at nerfs. Surely your combat team has a basic understanding of how and why Sawbones/Medicine has such a high HPS potential, but how this doesn't necessarily translate to real-world healing power in actual gameplay.

Sawbones/Medicine keep probes on key players at all times - much of the healing done by these probes actually goes to waste, but it's still a necessary part of how the class is played. Two of the seven heals afforded to the class (including the previously mentioned probes) are AoE heals, which do not always benefit all 4-8 players they can affect - again, wasted heals.

That leaves us with four single-target heals that usually don't contribute to overhealing (pub names used because I'm a filthy pub):
  • Diagnostic Scan Basic energy regen, barely classifies as a heal. It takes two GCDs to heal 1/3rd to 1/2 has much as most of the other heals.
  • Emergency Medpac is the second-weakest single-target heal, and also contributes indirectly to the overhealing (high-HPS) nature of the class by refreshing a pair of probes, if present. It is cheap and instant, but does require an Upper Hand to use (but at least it does refund it once per ten seconds with the Lv44 passive).
  • Underworld Medicine is the strongest up-front single-target heal, but also the slowest - with 1362 (12.30%) Alacrity, it takes me 1.78 seconds to cast, more than a full GCD, and easily interruptible in both PvP and PvE.
  • Kolto Pack is the strongest overall single-target heal, but roughly a third of that is spread out over 9 seconds (and again, being a HoT, easily contributes to a deceptively high HPS while potentially not adding to EHPS). This move also takes a full GCD to cast, and requires/consumes an Upper Hand.

TL;DR: Sawbones has five abilties (Kolto Waves, Kolto Cloud, Kolto Probe [plus Emergency Medpac's refresher on two stacks], and Kolto Pack) that contribute to overhealing, which isn't necessarily beneficial to the group most of the time. Sure, in a burn phase, all these HoTs and AoEs come in handy - but if you straight nerf the spec like you did Seer with a flat reduction in healing capability to try to bring them down to an HPS target that really only matters during said burn phases (or when groups are otherwise all taking sustained damge), you're going to cripple the class's capabilities during normal healing phases. Actual effective heals with the class can be as low as 60-70 percent - we need to be able to do (example numbers) 13k HPS just to be able to maintain 10k EHPS overall. If you bring us down to (again, example) a 10k HPS target and we start healing for 7-8k EHPS for most of most fights, nobody is going to take Sawbones anymore, because it just wouldn't be able to keep up with Combat Medics and Seers with a higher percentage of effective heals doing 9-9.5k.

Okay, so not that much of a TL;DR. But still. Please look at actual effective healing, and not 'potential' output if everybody in the group is constantly taking damage.
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Lundorff's Avatar


Lundorff
08.18.2017 , 12:30 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
However, even though their HPS is high, due to the Disciplines lack of burst healing it can be quite challenging to keep players, especially tanks, alive.
I bet the changes will make this class FOTM for PVP. Nerfing the HPS slightly for PVE while simultaneously given it a better burst, is going to make everyone and their sister flock to this class. And those who currently excel will only shine the brighter. And then people will complain and the class will be over-nerfred sometime next year

ivanhedgehog's Avatar


ivanhedgehog
08.18.2017 , 12:40 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by DenariusJay View Post
We are so overpowering in HPS that we can barely keep a tank alive!

And therein lies the reason why you shouldn't be balancing solely off numbers and dummy parses.
Keeping tanks alive or hitting dps checks is unimportant dont you understand? As long as you meet their super secret dps/hps targets all will be good and there will be peace and happiness. Little things like all classes being able to do all content is unimportant.

FerkWork's Avatar


FerkWork
08.18.2017 , 12:57 PM | #26
Ok.. main issue the class has is PvP to easy to interrupt, perhaps make stim boost grant x amount of seconds of interrupt immunity maybe haven't really thought it out. In PvE I guess some burst changes but really as long as the trade off is equitable and balanced I guess it's fine. But same time can't have best AoE and great burst there has to be compromise and each healer have unique strengths and weaknesses. Just my 2 cents.

wainot-keel's Avatar


wainot-keel
08.18.2017 , 01:06 PM | #27
Well, I'm pleasantly surprised. I was totally expecting a flat out nerf to our healing and that it was going to be it regarding balancing this spec

Rion_Starkiller's Avatar


Rion_Starkiller
08.18.2017 , 02:05 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Glzmo View Post
So now you are looking at other things than raw HPS/DPS all of a sudden? Why not when balancing DPS classes and also Sage/Sorcerer healing before?

I hope you've finally learned that only bringing DPS/HPS to a level doesn't constitute balance and you have to take all kinds of things into account as well. Back to the drawing board, kids!
Sorc heals are fine. L2P and get your own thread.

Quote: Originally Posted by Exocor View Post
Good decision. However, in my opinion, the Scoundrel can stay, where it is. There just has to be a little nerf to AoE-healing - like increasing the CD of Kolto Waves for example.
Kolto Waves costs a lot of energy. An op/scoundrel healer that spams it will quickly run out of energy. Also, it is simply not worth using unless you are healing 4-5+ people. Kolto Cloud, however.... Kolto Cloud is the shizz!
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ultimarb's Avatar


ultimarb
08.18.2017 , 03:33 PM | #29
nobody consider a operativenerf same as sorc. we only question the logic behind saying know operative wont get nerfed cause the community have concerns about the nerf. the community had also concerns about the sorc nerf for pve. sorc is know useless for example brontes nim when you dont have some jumping easterbunny tanks exploting the smashes.

imo all healing classes was ok in pve the way the were. pvp was just an utility issue. but addressing utilites is not on their agenda....

Quote: Originally Posted by funnypat View Post
It didn't render the class useless, please if you still think a pure op medicine nerf without giving them a minor boost on burst would be the same as a sage/sorc nerf - get one up to 70 and try healing yourself.
The healing on operative is "a little" more complex than the other 2.

So if you want to complain how unfair it is, at least know what you're complaining about.

I bet you can't even do 4k hps if you tried.

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rylanadionysis
08.18.2017 , 03:50 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by kissingaiur View Post
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