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So what's the "design philosophy" behind SWTOR's PvP?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
So what's the "design philosophy" behind SWTOR's PvP?

Severith's Avatar


Severith
11.22.2018 , 11:38 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Seterade View Post
lel.

see now that is toxic. and.. you assumed beyond your ken, which means you trolled yourself. I didnt say whether a 248 skank gets bolstered.

but reading is hard.

I enjoy your posts severith. I really do. specially when you defend game exploits that in 6.0 because of players like yourself, bioware will have to step in and shut you down. cause self policing your own exploits is uber hard.

I want you to remember something from this exchange because I decided I wont gain anything by speaking to you.

"skank tanks" would not be being continuosly nerfed is a) they were not broken, b) if no one actually had issues and they were just fine, or c) they are "working as intended" game feature.
Bolster is 242 currently. If someone's gear isn't at 242, they're not having much of an impact, and it wouldn't be an issue for you. You claimed that skank tanks are getting more out of bolster than they deserve to get, which is blatantly false. Skank tanks getting bolstered are not effective in any way.

I've never defended exploits. Gear choice isn't an exploit. Even if it was, it would be impossible for me to defend an exploit in 6.0 because 6.0 doesn't even exist yet.

The only thing I'll remember about you, is that you mouth off about stuff you don't know about.

As to your last point, no one here, other than some white knights perhaps, has faith that the devs know what they are doing in terms of class balance, or intentions of class balance. The vast majority of people complaining about skank tanks don't even know the difference between damage per second and total damage done in a warzone. So I'll at least correct that in the hopes of an actual progressive discussion.

ultimarb's Avatar


ultimarb
11.23.2018 , 04:48 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Totemdancer View Post
You forgot, or d) “they were never intended as a spec to start with”
Bioware changed the old setup to a utility system in the hope of getting rid of hybrids (but failed).
Skanks are hybrids and a cancer in reg pvp. I’ve no sympathy for people getting upset because they get nerfed or it’s difficult to gear them up.
Tanks have now been buffed (so no more excuses) and if someone chooses a tank spec, then they should be gearing as a tank and not as skank.
If they want to dps, they should grab their proverbial balls and use a dps class and not hide behind tanks being harder to kill so they can spam AOE fluff damage for the scoreboard.
They don’t help the team, especially in arena where they are a hinderance and often need to be carried. They rarely guard the healer and if they do, the healer has to heal them more than normal because they aren’t real tanks.
I actually wish they’d nerf skanks more to make them completely unrealistic and unviable. Oh wine would be tasty.
skank tank needs to be carried in arena compared to full tank? good joke.
a viable healer dont need perma guard on themself and doesn't need the better dr of a full tank...what a viable healer benefits from is that his/her skank tank deals more damage in all situation.

most average healers cant deal with aoe/dot damage, and skanks add a lot of aoe damage to your group. those average healers are the ones who would benefit of a full tank guarding them. those 8 to 11k hps healers wont need a full tank so none of their mades in a premade will not list as skank tank
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Seterade's Avatar


Seterade
11.23.2018 , 02:44 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by ultimarb View Post
skank tank needs to be carried in arena compared to full tank? good joke.
a viable healer dont need perma guard on themself and doesn't need the better dr of a full tank...what a viable healer benefits from is that his/her skank tank deals more damage in all situation.

most average healers cant deal with aoe/dot damage, and skanks add a lot of aoe damage to your group. those average healers are the ones who would benefit of a full tank guarding them. those 8 to 11k hps healers wont need a full tank so none of their mades in a premade will not list as skank tank
correct, a skank does not under perform in arenas. the reason for this lies in why parsing is not relevant to pvp. the more damage you take in pvp (tunnel/focus) the less dps you do, regardless of class/spec or team comp. so if your tank is a little more squishy but puts out dps spec dmg value it balances out, because it lowers the oppositions dps values compensating for low mitigation. mitigation in pvp is dependant on not only stats but how much pressure/dps you put out. one of the key reasons pvp is "harder" than pve.

Severith's Avatar


Severith
11.24.2018 , 12:24 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Totemdancer View Post
You forgot, or d) “they were never intended as a spec to start with”
Bioware changed the old setup to a utility system in the hope of getting rid of hybrids (but failed).
Skanks are hybrids and a cancer in reg pvp. I’ve no sympathy for people getting upset because they get nerfed or it’s difficult to gear them up.
Tanks have now been buffed (so no more excuses) and if someone chooses a tank spec, then they should be gearing as a tank and not as skank.
If they want to dps, they should grab their proverbial balls and use a dps class and not hide behind tanks being harder to kill so they can spam AOE fluff damage for the scoreboard.
They don’t help the team, especially in arena where they are a hinderance and often need to be carried. They rarely guard the healer and if they do, the healer has to heal them more than normal because they aren’t real tanks.
I actually wish they’d nerf skanks more to make them completely unrealistic and unviable. Oh wine would be tasty.
Do you think NIM raider tanks are cancer? NIM tanks don't use tank relics, and replace mods with dps ones. But that doesn't serve the narrative, now does it? The best pvers are expected not to go full tank. So why are you insisting that pvpers should be forced to?

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
11.24.2018 , 11:45 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Severith View Post
Do you think NIM raider tanks are cancer? NIM tanks don't use tank relics, and replace mods with dps ones. But that doesn't serve the narrative, now does it? The best pvers are expected not to go full tank. So why are you insisting that pvpers should be forced to?
I don't NiM but as a HM raider I run dps relics with lethal b mods but shield/absorb enhancements. I assume they are referring to the enhancements as skanks generally run crit/alac instead of shield/abs.

That said, the issue with the def rating needs solving before they can lock tanks into gear. There is no point running the absurdly high def rating you currently get from "optimal" gear.

Severith's Avatar


Severith
11.25.2018 , 11:35 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
I don't NiM but as a HM raider I run dps relics with lethal b mods but shield/absorb enhancements. I assume they are referring to the enhancements as skanks generally run crit/alac instead of shield/abs.

That said, the issue with the def rating needs solving before they can lock tanks into gear. There is no point running the absurdly high def rating you currently get from "optimal" gear.
That's exactly how the NIM raiders I talk to say they gear their tanks. Lethal B with dps relics.

That being said, "lock tanks into gear" isn't going to work unless every class/spec is locked, which is problematic at best and sets up a dangerous precident at worse.

Did you know alacrity wasn't a dps stat? It was a healer "exclusive" stat. Back when 2.0 launched, I started to take a look at it, being a veng jugg. Ravage worked differently back then, and was actually a feared ability. It was so feared/damaging that pvpers would time their stuns/knockbacks to prevent the last tick of it against veng jugs, because that last tick hit so hard.

So I experimented with alacrity, and found a good spot so the stun immunity from the veng leap lined up with cast time for the ravage. It was easy to experiment because you could buy the alacrity enhancements directly with comms. It turned veng specs from a "noob killer that gets shut down by good pvpers" to a competitive spec.

I had won smaller dueling tournaments before this, and done very well on larger dueling events, but after I figured out the sweet spot, my full ravages always worked, which was a huge advantage and quite frankly a lot of fun. I kept telling people how great alacrity was and people assumed I was trolling. I gave up for the most part, but here and there I started to notice other pvpers, in other classes, adding in alacrity here and there.

So other people had been figuring out, for their own dps classes and specs, how to insert a "healer only" stat into their gear and have it work for them. I'm sure they had as much fun experimenting and figuring it out as I did.

The concept of locking people into gear isn't healthy for the game, because it removes the player's involvement for how their characters operate. I don't think it's going to happen, and if it did it would be the worst hatchet job Bioware Austin has attempted for class balance, and given their record that's saying something. If it "worked" then they'd use the same method to balance other classes.

Rafiknoll's Avatar


Rafiknoll
11.25.2018 , 12:08 PM | #27
Should they lock players into gear, the next stage will soon enough be replacing all stats with "stat" which simply applies different numbers to different attributes according to a fixed chart that has a row for each spec of each class.

There would be no practical difference between this obviously ridiculous system and locking the stats for classes (except for the ability to prioritize which attribute you wish to boost first if you don't have enough currency to buy all gear at once, but a fully geared player will be just as "customable" as with my fictional "stat". ZERO customization)

I really hope they never make that mistake...

AlrikFassbauer's Avatar


AlrikFassbauer
11.29.2018 , 05:06 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by WayOfTheWarriorx View Post
If you are looking for 'fair' you won't get it in PVP long as we have have the current paradigm with Mercs, Snipers, and Skank Tanks.
I believe that there are at least 2 kinds of players - and their styles.

- The "fair play" player, who wants a honest contest, no tricks.

- The "dominating player", who's goal is to dominate everyone, and thus uses everything possible to fulfill this, even the dirtiest tricks. And since this is in-game even encouraged by Baron Deathmark, people believe the devs are positive towards that style.

Bot player philosophies will most likely have the "fair play player" always be at the lower end of it, and thus getting disgruntled.

The "domination players", however, might be more that happy with the current system, especially if they are good players. They love farming the weaker players, with the strawman argument of "only farming makes them better", but never actually giving the weaker ones the chance to get better, because if they *really* got better players, rthere would be no-one to farm in the end, and thus all fun of domination wouldn not be there anymore.

Domination requires weak players to be there, so domination players are needing weaker players.

Bioware just doesn't have any psychologist in their team, so what they can only do with that "clash of PvP cultures" is ... just helplessness. Especially since they firmly believe that the amount of PvP players is so small they they can throw EVERYONE into the SAME brackets (seen in GSF, too !).
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AlrikFassbauer's Avatar


AlrikFassbauer
11.29.2018 , 05:23 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Totemdancer View Post
If only Bioware would hire someone from outside the game who specialises in pvp development, like someone from overwatch or league. Maybe poach someone from one of the more successful pvp games or e-sports games. Even if they just work as a freelance consultant for a while. Even an understudy from one of those games would have more of an idea about true pvp than the current Bio guys.
These professionals would go straight to level 70 PvP, and because of that completely ruin Lowbie PvP - or even completely eliminate that. It will be like GSF, then.

And GSF is already a closed circle.

Lowbies have no-one fight for them. Quite the opposite. Most PvP players I've read here in these forums even openly wrote that Lowbie brackets in PvP just shouldn't be there at all, so to say. (It's almost as if they didn't want anyone to actually learn through Lowbie brackets). They usually rather see Lowbie brackets as "infinite farming grounds", so that they can have fun dominating others.
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Mannok's Avatar


Mannok
11.29.2018 , 07:40 AM | #30
I think.
This is scratching the surface of something quite profound and I will offer my 2 cents, because I have been thinking about it for a week due to participating in the "premades in PvP" discussion.

Hopefully we can all make fun of eachother after this.


The underlying structure beneath PvP in general is the concept of Struggle.

Struggle is a process, that can't be finished unless you end at the absolute Pinnacle of PvP prowess. But when you reach the Pinnacle, you find the foot prints of others before you. You then realize that the only way to get better is a struggle with them - but they are no longer around.

Their stories are in the Star Wars Universe narratively those like Tulak Horde and varies old Jedi and Sith. In PvP these were the best of the best 1-5+ years ago of which most peaked at different times. Those that got to the top in a Group, find the footprints of other groups. They might end up being the goal of what we try to become.


Striking a Balance - Now comes the Dark and Light side Struggle of trying to make game balance.
It is a human fundamental that we want to improve ourselves and the world around us. The reason why alot hate the idea of making all equal, is that it shatters the underlying concept of Struggle - which is basicly how we improve.

I think there are 5 points of view colliding encapsulated in 5 archetypes we all inhabit (crude sketch just to show the idea) - all part of the equation..

1) The Roaring Lion that want to win no matter what, he never cries, he struggle and he wins.
2) The perfect Athlete to whom PvP is a fair sport.
3) A member of Team Social Club.
4) The Compassionate Mother Bear, that only takes pleasure in others success.
5) The special Snowflake that really, really wants to feel special.

We all have these elements in varies degrees and integrate them as we grow Wiser (another struggle).

The Perfect Athlete and member of Team Social Club - is `The Ladies Man´.
The Special Snowflake Roaring Lion is the - `Whiny Lioncub´ - that is easy to make fun of.
The compassionate mother bear Roaring Lion - feels shame for being a `Noob Basher´ and has identity issues.


So what I am getting at is:
PvP is a Struggle and that includes the forum. Ladies Man couldn't be a real ladies man if the Roaring Lions weren't complete azz holes. The Lioncub could never grow up if he was never made fun of. The Compassionate Mother Bear wouldn't feel any joy, if everyone was equal as no one would ever actually succeed.

Maybe the whole idea of balancing PvP - has been an attempt to please all the above (hysterically and at the same time) and that we should be truly and very grateful about the current game . Even tho I am critical about certain elements. I have not played as much good PvP in any game as SWTOR for like 15+ years of playing PvP.


/signed
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