Jump to content

Remove guard from dps please


omaan

Recommended Posts

This is ridiculous, 3 dps with a healer and two of them just cross guarding each other and our team has only one dps who has guard and no one can guard him. SO ofcourse our team will loose since enemy team is just hitting one target without need to switch while our team has to spend time on swapping and these swaps don't really help much since switching targets still takes time which helps enemy healer to heal up both dps easily. Only tanks must have guard since it's their role to save team mates from dps. When dps can both guard, spam taunts and do dps this is not normal and gives a huge advantage in heal/dps ranked games. Edited by omaan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please tell me this was 3 PTs too, that would make it all the funnier.

 

I mean I'm personally fine taking guard away from dps specs, as long as they get something in return for the loss of utility

Edited by KendraP
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I mean I'm personally fine taking guard away from dps specs, as long as they get something in return for the loss of utility

 

I don't think they need to remove it, but it is too effective a tool given how easy it is to use. I would nerf it to 25% damage reduction for dps specs. Or another option would be to make it take a lot resources to use, so that there's an actual cost. That way its impact will more closely match its ease of use.

 

While I wouldn't call it broken or anything, and there are clear strategies to counter it most of the time, there are very few good players that think dps guard is fine as is, and the ones that do are conveniently sin mains.

Edited by JediMasterAlex
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think they need to remove it, but it is too effective a tool given how easy it is to use. I would nerf it to 25% damage reduction for dps specs. Or another option would be to make it take a lot resources to use, so that there's an actual cost. That way its impact will more closely match its ease of use.

 

While I wouldn't call it broken or anything, and there are clear strategies to counter it most of the time, there are very few good players that think dps guard is fine as is, and the ones that do are conveniently sin mains.

 

far easier and more sensible it a) they lose the proc that form switching orginaly punished (no stun immune leap or autocrit burst) or b) just nerf their dmg by 25%. guard was always a dps thing, it just came with a big nerf to dps because your burst rotated around your stance. nerf dmg while guarding, ez change

Link to comment
Share on other sites

far easier and more sensible it a) they lose the proc that form switching orginaly punished (no stun immune leap or autocrit burst) or b) just nerf their dmg by 25%. guard was always a dps thing, it just came with a big nerf to dps because your burst rotated around your stance. nerf dmg while guarding, ez change

 

Yeah, that's a good idea too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While I wouldn't call it broken or anything, and there are clear strategies to counter it most of the time, there are very few good players that think dps guard is fine as is, and the ones that do are conveniently sin mains.

 

These strategies aren't working much tbh. One of main strats is make one of your team members sit on guarding player while others are sitting on guarded player. Yet it's still better for enemy healer to heal up the group instead of healing one, hardly zerged target since healers in swtor actually do more hps than dps specs do damage (healers do 6-10k hps while dps specs doing 5-7k dps). For healer healing splited damage much easier than to heal one zerged target. Thats why cross-guarding teams win teams with no cross-guard - they can sit on one target and non-guard team is forced to split or swap targets.

 

In addition to this, in swtor not all classes are good at swap - concealment operative doesn't have same close-up as fury mara has (obliterate, for example)and roll is pretty situational on mid-range (since it can push you too much farther than needed). So those classes/specs which are not good at swaping are in bad position against cross-guarders.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please tell me this was 3 PTs too, that would make it all the funnier.

 

I mean I'm personally fine taking guard away from dps specs, as long as they get something in return for the loss of utility

 

I'm not sure why people think that removing a game-breaking mecahnic warrants some kind of reimbursement. Not all DPS can guard, so its not like you ''need the utility''. Broken mechanic is broken. Just fix/remove the ability for DPS to guard. Should have happened years ago.

 

 

EDIT:

Edited by SOULCASTER
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not sure why people think that removing a game-breaking mecahnic warrants some kind of reimbursement. Not all DPS can guard, so its not like you ''need the utility''. Broken mechanic is broken. Just fix/remove the ability for DPS to guard. Should have happened years ago.

 

 

EDIT:

Actually just found this in another thread. Good example on why DPS being able to guard is retarded.

Screenshot: https://imgur.com/a/oZja4Qf

(Image source: page 2 of: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=968693&page=2)

 

Those are tanks... Dps guarding grants a nice complexity to pvp in this game. The risk/reward is there too so im happy it is staying the same.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Those are tanks... Dps guarding grants a nice complexity to pvp in this game. The risk/reward is there too so im happy it is staying the same.

 

Whoops correct, wrong screenshot. I'm so used to DPS doing that much protection that I didn't even catch that its the wrong screenshot. Let me go back and get it.

 

There isn't really a risk/reward for guarding as a DPS. The only risk is if your healer is bad.

Edited by SOULCASTER
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There isn't really a risk/reward for guarding as a DPS. The only risk is if your healer is bad.

 

When you guard someone as a dps, you cannot get guard in return(be guarded). If you do not know how to take advantage of that, then you might want to rethink how you pvp in this game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This sounds like bad target management or low DPS issue. I guess you can't fully counter-play guard if you have super single target focused specs. But even Concealment and AP could get some cleave damage happen which helps bursting the one who guards. Everyone else can put a decent chunk of pressure out. And having even one DoT spec is already a win in my book.

 

Basically, when DPS is guarding another DPS, you should be able to cleave them both and the one guarding will pretty much take 150% of the usual damage (I mean, that is what guard does, duh. But as he is not a tank and has no real mitigation, it doesn't bring much profit to guard full-time). Unless your team has no good damage dealers, I don't see how DPS guarding a DPS is an advantage in a 3dd + heal game. It could help in a 4dd game when one person is just super hard focused. But in a 3dd + heal game PT or Sin will get completely blown up, jugg can do this longer but after he is out of ED stacks he should die pretty quick. You should be hard focusing the person who guards while dealing as much AoE damage as possible to the one who is guarded by him.

 

Healer should be cced as much as possible. To be honest, even a freecasting healer won't be able to keep the guarding DPS alive for long (unless again, your group has no damage) but cc will make it much easier.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When you guard someone as a dps, you cannot get guard in return(be guarded). If you do not know how to take advantage of that, then you might want to rethink how you pvp in this game.

 

It seems you are not playing ranked much. Two guardians can't keep guard at same time on each other but they just drop guard when they are low hp so other dps with guard can guard him. This cross guard makes their healer much easier to heal up compared to enemy team with no cross guard. Literally cross-guard team sits on one target and mezzes healer forcing that target to use defenses fast while another team is forced to swap two targets and take out BOTH TARGET'S defenses which gives team with cross guard great advantage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This sounds like bad target management or low DPS issue. I guess you can't fully counter-play guard if you have super single target focused specs. But even Concealment and AP could get some cleave damage happen which helps bursting the one who guards. Everyone else can put a decent chunk of pressure out. And having even one DoT spec is already a win in my book.

 

Basically, when DPS is guarding another DPS, you should be able to cleave them both and the one guarding will pretty much take 150% of the usual damage (I mean, that is what guard does, duh. But as he is not a tank and has no real mitigation, it doesn't bring much profit to guard full-time). Unless your team has no good damage dealers, I don't see how DPS guarding a DPS is an advantage in a 3dd + heal game. It could help in a 4dd game when one person is just super hard focused. But in a 3dd + heal game PT or Sin will get completely blown up, jugg can do this longer but after he is out of ED stacks he should die pretty quick. You should be hard focusing the person who guards while dealing as much AoE damage as possible to the one who is guarded by him.

 

Healer should be cced as much as possible. To be honest, even a freecasting healer won't be able to keep the guarding DPS alive for long (unless again, your group has no damage) but cc will make it much easier.

 

Not playing ranked much too? Most of dot specs are squishy in swtor so they are focused and stunned hard. They cant survive long against 3 dps siting on them long enough to make high aoe pressure. Secondly, when enemy healer see that opponent's team has 2 burst specs and 1 aoe he just stacks with his cross guarding team mates to get some damage and avoid being cce'd which makes his healing of two cross guarding juggs or sins even easier. Thirdly, don't forget that those classe who have guard also have some utilities or abilities against dot or aoe pressure. Sins have shroud and juggs have utility which makes threatening scream reduce aoe damage taken

Edited by omaan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It seems you are not playing ranked much. Two guardians can't keep guard at same time on each other but they just drop guard when they are low hp so other dps with guard can guard him. This cross guard makes their healer much easier to heal up compared to enemy team with no cross guard. Literally cross-guard team sits on one target and mezzes healer forcing that target to use defenses fast while another team is forced to swap two targets and take out BOTH TARGET'S defenses which gives team with cross guard great advantage.

Not playing ranked much too? Most of dot specs are squishy in swtor so they are focused and stunned hard. They cant survive long against 3 dps siting on them long enough to make high aoe pressure. Secondly, when enemy healer see that opponent's team has 2 burst specs and 1 aoe he just stacks with his cross guarding team mates to get some damage and avoid being cce'd which makes his healing of two cross guarding juggs or sins even easier. Thirdly, don't forget that those classe who have guard also have some utilities or abilities against dot or aoe pressure. Sins have shroud and juggs have utility which makes threatening scream reduce aoe damage taken

 

As much as it pains me to agree with him, Omaan is clearly right about this. In a healer game, assuming anything resembling equal skill, the team that has to split damage onto two targets due to alternating cross guarding will always lose to the team that has the luxury of focusing one target. There's no way around that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It seems you are not playing ranked much. Two guardians can't keep guard at same time on each other but they just drop guard when they are low hp so other dps with guard can guard him. This cross guard makes their healer much easier to heal up compared to enemy team with no cross guard. Literally cross-guard team sits on one target and mezzes healer forcing that target to use defenses fast while another team is forced to swap two targets and take out BOTH TARGET'S defenses which gives team with cross guard great advantage.

 

My favorite part with these arguments is the fact you all use the double guardian/jugg as your example and only example. They are the best of the cross guard because they have 2 lives each and suffer the least in uptime since they have no escapes. Shadows can vanish out and leave combat for 20 or so seconds while pts have no escapes either but do not have 2 lives.

 

If two pts cross guarding was an issue as the weakest form of cross-guarding, then you have a good reason to say that dps guarding is too good.

 

I am not playing ranked these days and i do not need too. The general meta has been the same for years now with no dramatic changes to pvp outside of the removal of 30% dr while stunned to dps specs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My favorite part with these arguments is the fact you all use the double guardian/jugg as your example and only example. They are the best of the cross guard because they have 2 lives each and suffer the least in uptime since they have no escapes. Shadows can vanish out and leave combat for 20 or so seconds while pts have no escapes either but do not have 2 lives.

 

If two pts cross guarding was an issue as the weakest form of cross-guarding, then you have a good reason to say that dps guarding is too good.

 

I am not playing ranked these days and i do not need too. The general meta has been the same for years now with no dramatic changes to pvp outside of the removal of 30% dr while stunned to dps specs.

 

Whoever the theoretical "best" at crossguarding is irrelevant. Sins crossguarding is by far the most common occurrence of it. 95% of offguarding in solo ranked is by sins. They can alternate guarding each other and stealthing out, and it's not hard, yet it is very hard to counter, especially when they have a healer. Zurules still mistakenly thinks that offguarding as a dps is some deeply complex high level strategy, when the reality is that it's totally straightforward and easy, especially considering how impactful it is.

 

I've personally only seen two pts on the same team twice in the last year+, in all the ranked matches I play. They simply aren't played because they're so bad in solos. I think if two really good pts cross guarded each other in a healer game, that would still be very difficult to beat, because they will be focusing only one of your team, and pts have some of the highest dps potential.

 

Again, I've still never seen anyone defending guard on dps specs except sin mains.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When you guard someone as a dps, you cannot get guard in return(be guarded). If you do not know how to take advantage of that, then you might want to rethink how you pvp in this game.

 

Yes I'm quite aware of this. I have done quite a bit of ranked pvp in this game, to say the least.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I played on pts and i can confrim that cross-guard is even more opped there since juggs have greet teeth and sins two vanishes. double dps guard teams will dominate solo ranked totally while teams with only one guard dps teams...you can just /stuck or quit when you see that enemy team has 2 guard dps and your team has none or only 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guard in T/H games seems justified in the way that it functions but what the dev team overlooked was that in PVP the population would dwindle and not all be T/H games thus giving DPS the abillity to use a tank only abillity in a role they didn't even q as. Edited by BrantMerc
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The SWTOR Combat Dev team gave a statistic in the PTS discord that's been setup, the statistic they gave is that the 2nd highest win rate comp in solo ranked consists of a healer an ap pt and a deception assassin. They gave this as counter evidence in response to people saying that ap pt needed a defensive buff. What they didn't realise is that this statistic only proves how ridiculously strong off-guarding and cross-guarding is in PVP, that the weakest defensive class (pt) and the second weakest defensive class (assassin) have ridiculously high win rates together purely due to the ability to cross-guard.

 

If this is true, that is just damning evidence that Bioware has no clue about pvp in this game. Talk about cherry picked statistics. There are probably 1000 other stats relating to pts that show them being played less than any other class, getting globaled more than any other class, and losing more than any other class.

 

The last direct comment I remember Bioware making about pvp balance was something about mercs being underpowreed because they can't catch up to enemies with enough speed, roots, slows.

 

I don't think anyone on Bioware's staff understands their own game's pvp and it's really disturbing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The SWTOR Combat Dev team gave a statistic in the PTS discord that's been setup, the statistic they gave is that the 2nd highest win rate comp in solo ranked consists of a healer an ap pt and a deception assassin. They gave this as counter evidence in response to people saying that ap pt needed a defensive buff. What they didn't realize is that this statistic only proves how ridiculously strong off-guarding and cross-guarding is in PVP, that the weakest defensive class (pt) and the second weakest defensive class (assassin) have ridiculously high win rates together purely due to the ability to cross-guard.

 

Of course there are ways to try to play around guarding and cross-guarding but the point remains, it's just simply far too powerful and therefore needs to at least be tweaked or arguably removed full stop.

 

3 man comp has second highest win rate vs composition of 4 players lol. How many times has that composition even occurred out of the thousands of games played and were the people in those games any good to even start off. Also, Deception assassin is not the second worst defensive spec in the game. Hatred assassin and lethality operatives are both weaker. Way too much info missing here for me to take this one seriously.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 man comp has second highest win rate vs composition of 4 players lol. How many times has that composition even occurred out of the thousands of games played and were the people in those games any good to even start off. Also, Deception assassin is not the second worst defensive spec in the game. Hatred assassin and lethality operatives are both weaker. Way too much info missing here for me to take this one seriously.

 

You're a bit of an idiot aren't you? Of course there was a 4th player, they didn't specify the class or spec but it doesn't really matter. Also, I referred to assassin as the second weakest class, I didn't specifically mention specs. I think we could spend some time debating whether lethality is squishier than deception but this is besides the point anyway.

 

And yes, it was a sorc healer too.

 

Just to clear up things, the combat dev just gave a few statistics in a conversation where pt survivability was being discussed so my original post may have been a little bit inaccurate, i'll edit it now.

Edited by ijwed
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You're a bit of an idiot aren't you? Of course there was a 4th player, they didn't specify the class or spec but it doesn't really matter. Also, I referred to assassin as the second weakest class, I didn't specifically mention specs. I think we could spend some time debating whether lethality is squishier than deception but this is besides the point anyway.

 

And yes, it was a sorc healer too.

 

Just to clear up things, the combat dev just gave a few statistics in a conversation where pt survivability was being discussed so my original post may have been a little bit inaccurate, i'll edit it now.

 

link to where they were talking about this?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...