A. a pack of cards contain a pack of cards, regardless if one of them cards has a higher face value, but lets face it there is not a single set of cards in production with any special cards with a Monterey value, that would be a lottery and has such gambling, here in the UK and also in some states in the US. and if it does contain some kind of lottery the UK loophole is "no purchase necessary" so you are not forced to gamble 1000000 of packets to have a chance.

.

try every single collectible card game ever made... when you buy a pack of Magic, pokemon or whatever card games kids play now it's completely random what cards are in side and many of said cards are rare and and by virtue of that rarity can be sold for much much more than the others... it's flat out gambling... now I suppose you could argue it's different since the card's aren't given back to the producer for the cash and the customers set the value but in reality it is the same since the producers control the cards value by setting how many are produced... it's more involved than straight up gambling but the end results are exactly the same... I can walk into a gas station buy a lotto ticket. scratch it off and then either loose or win and give it to the lady behind the counter for cash... or I can walk into a comic shop buy a pack of collectible cards, open them and either get crap not worth anything or a rare which I can then sell to the guy behind the counter and walk out with cash

only difference with Lockboxes in an online game is technically you don't own anything in the game... your character and all the "loot" it has is owned by the company who runs the game and you are just paying rent to use it... that little fact right there could probably be used as a loophole to get around any gambling laws

My question about thses lock boxes, will I need them to progress my toon ? are they something I will need to play the game ? or are they like a fun little grab bag, you pay for and see what you get ? Will I be forced to buy them or will be just an option ? if they are not needed for me to progress my toon what is the problem ? is some one afraid some one might get someting cooler out of a lock box than they have ? I am not a fan of random things when it does have a direct influence on my game play, but some thing on the side like this could be fun, I have already seen the dev's say nothing that special is going into them, armor that is already in the game.. I dunno I think I see allot of knee jerking reaction to a non issue once again.. /shrug

 

But maybe I am wrong time will tell, plus I don't really care..

the only answer people can give is by experience in other games and generally the answer is

The more lockboxes tht sell the more and more the game starts to be moulded around them. after the first few months lockboxes become the media of choice of releasing content.

You tried to argue that you do, in fact, know what's in the lockbox: gear.

 

Evidently you can't redefine "gear" broadly enough to cover sparkle powder, so here we are.

 

The fact is, you really don't khow what's in it. Nice try, saying "gear," though.

Nor do you.

But something is in there. That is all that matters.

So you can call sparkle powder gear or loot or sparkle powder. Make narrow enough categories and you can exclude a lot of stuff.

I never said that the boxes would contain nothing but things that you could wear and/or use as a weapon. You are the one that decided that that was what 'gear' meant.

Nice try putting words in my mouth.

Ah, who am I trying to kid? Not a nice try at all, just so much building of straw men.

So now your argument is that you know what isn't in the lockbox: anything of value.

Nope. That was my point all along.

Everyone else was using the card analogy so I stuck with that, but then someone wants to come along and make a big deal of that, so I decided to try and explain things in the clearest way possible.

Yet people valued the in the ingame items associated with the CE and VIP vendors enough to pay extra for the game. Because, whether or not you wish to assign those ingame items an actual value, people perceive value in such items as exclusive speeders and costume pieces that can't be obtained through gameplay.

What makes you think that you matter enough to have what you think has or should have value will actually have value for that reason alone?

Who cares if someone bought the CE for the trooper armor? The trooper armor has no real value.

The perceived value of these virtual items is enough that people will exhibit behaviors associated with gambling; and whether or not you concede that it's really gambling, lockboxes are proven to succeed at exploiting those behaviors.

 

Call it gambling, or not. It doesn't matter. People are going to spend their money gambling on those boxes.

So reality doesn't matter? Only what you think matters?

So have you called your local gaming commision or whatever authorities would be the ones to review this as a gambling issue?

Did you tell them that what the law says doesn't matter because you say it's gambling?

Nice try putting words in my mouth.

 

Ah, who am I trying to kid? Not a nice try at all, just so much building of straw men.

Nobody put words in your mouth: you said you know what's in the lockbox, that it's gear. Later you said you know what isn't in the lockbox. These statements formed the basis of your arguments and refuting them isn't building strawmen. The fact is, saying that the box has something, then that it has nothing, is just arguing semantics. You don't know what's in the box and neither does anybody else.

What makes you think that you matter enough to have what you think has or should have value will actually have value for that reason alone?

This sentence doesn't parse and could use some editing. Also it's a great example of what you tried to accuse me of doing: building a strawman argument. But I'll field it anyway.

My opinion of the value of a lockbox doesn't matter at all. What matters is that virtual items in games represent a value to mmo game customers. Whether they foolishly misappropriate a lasting value to the items or they more reasonably see an entertainment value in them, inasmuch as the virtual items ehance their enjoyment of the game, players do ascribe value to virtual items. A value for which they have demonstrated willingness to pay real money.

My opinion of this value, like yours, is irrelevant. People pay for virtual items and they will pay for lockboxes the contents of which are unknown, on the possibility that they may contain virtual items they want to "have."

So reality doesn't matter? Only what you think matters?

All along, that has been your argument, not mine. You know what's in the boxes, you know what isn't in them. Caveat emptor, there is nothing of value in lockboxes. But reality will tell a different story. Virtual items represent an entertainment value to mmo customers, and whether or not I would ever pay real money for a sparklepony, people buy them and value them.

Trying to say that lockboxes aren't gambling because that value isn't real is just arguing semantics. Semantic arguments may be sufficient to keep this issue out of court, but it doesn't justify the business practice of monetizing art assets through a system whose only purpose is to expoit gambling behaviors on the part of customers.

 

Once again, unless it is stuff that you have to have rather than merely things that you might like to have, then it doesn't matter.

 

And if you see some thing(s) that you want to have (want, not need, but want. There is a difference) and do not have enough of the Cartel coins, you can save them up and get the item next month.

 

I know. Saving money. Crazy concept, but every day I do not buy things that I want because I decide that I would rather do other things with my money, including saving it up for a bigger purchase later.

 

The fallacy of this argument is that as a paying subscriber I shouldn't have to pay any additional real money or save up my "monthly allowance" in order to get any sort of in game content. period.

I, like almost everyone here, bought this game before the F2P annoucement - when our expectation was that this is a subscription game

The fallacy of this argument is that as a paying subscriber I shouldn't have to pay any additional real money or save up my "monthly allowance" in order to get any sort of in game content. period.

 

I, like almost everyone here, bought this game before the F2P annoucement - when our expectation was that this is a subscription game

This still is a subscription game and will remain a subscription game after the f2p switch. You guys are freaking out about something that you made up in your head. Nowhere does it say you have to buy anything from the store.

This still is a subscription game and will remain a subscription game after the f2p switch. You guys are freaking out about something that you made up in your head. Nowhere does it say you have to buy anything from the store.

This thread is operating on several assumptions because of the lack of info. I was posting based on those assumptions.

Of course i wouldnt have to buy the items. but If i want them and they are ONLY available in the cash shop through the gambling lockboxes thats not the slightest bit fair to me as a subscriber is it?!

This still is a subscription game and will remain a subscription game after the f2p switch. You guys are freaking out about something that you made up in your head. Nowhere does it say you have to buy anything from the store.

This.

I know a lot of parents dealing with this kind of thing in other games, even if it's not a "gambling" situation, you have to monitor your kids when it comes to micro transactions. That's being a parent and teaching your kids to be responsible. Again, since this is all speculation, it's hard to debate it. Maybe there will be an age verification/parental controls when this system gets put in place. There are things similar to this in GW2 also, but I've felt no motivation to pursue them. The boxes just sit in my bank.

 

This also reminds me of those machines where you pick up stuffed animals with a claw. Those machines are programmed to miss for so many times. So those machines are kind of gambling in a sense. Yet they are legal. :/

Except in GW2 you actually have a chance of looting the keys or getting them as a reward.

I have looted 2 so far in just over a week, I have also been given one as a reward.. when opening my first BLTC chest i found another key inside it.. so its only gambling if you choose to open the cashstore and spend your coin.. if its an item that only drops via paid micro transactions then sure it wouldn't appeal to me.. but people forget it maybe be a game but its also a business.. how many people play the lottery every week in the UK or EU or US etc etc...only difference is, and I agree with the posts on here, there is no age verification as yet and that's where parents need to be extra vigilant with any game where there is exposure to adult material/content.

This thread is operating on several assumptions because of the lack of info. I was posting based on those assumptions.

 

Of course i wouldnt have to buy the items. but If i want them and they are ONLY available in the cash shop through the gambling lockboxes thats not the slightest bit fair to me as a subscriber is it?!

Actually yes it is fair.. you dont have to buy them, just like you dont have to buy a lotterry ticket.. you have a choice to spend or not and being F2P or a subber makes no differnece when it comes to buying items from the cashshop.

Additionally if you are a subber you will be getting CC's to spend ... how you choose to use those coins is up to you.

Keys in GW2 are purchasable via the trading store, yes but you can trade in game currency to convert to the gems whoich are needed to buy the keys... that's nothing new in other MMO's that have F2P cashstores. But at the same time the game needs to turn a profit otherwise... THERE WONT BE ANY GAME!

try every single collectible card game ever made... when you buy a pack of Magic, pokemon or whatever card games kids play now it's completely random what cards are in side and many of said cards are rare and and by virtue of that rarity can be sold for much much more than the others... it's flat out gambling... now I suppose you could argue it's different since the card's aren't given back to the producer for the cash and the customers set the value but in reality it is the same since the producers control the cards value by setting how many are produced... it's more involved than straight up gambling but the end results are exactly the same... I can walk into a gas station buy a lotto ticket. scratch it off and then either loose or win and give it to the lady behind the counter for cash... or I can walk into a comic shop buy a pack of collectible cards, open them and either get crap not worth anything or a rare which I can then sell to the guy behind the counter and walk out with cash

 

only difference with Lockboxes in an online game is technically you don't own anything in the game... your character and all the "loot" it has is owned by the company who runs the game and you are just paying rent to use it... that little fact right there could probably be used as a loophole to get around any gambling laws

The thing with trading card games is you are buying the cards, not the chance (of course the motivation is the chance, but motivation isn't easy to legislate for).

Lockboxes are a bit different, because you are buying the chance, NOT a phyisical product.

Which is why I'm amazed the EU hasn't come down like a ton of brick on as it is basially unlicenced gambling.

This thread is operating on several assumptions because of the lack of info. I was posting based on those assumptions.

 

Of course i wouldnt have to buy the items. but If i want them and they are ONLY available in the cash shop through the gambling lockboxes thats not the slightest bit fair to me as a subscriber is it?!

Why? Since you are getting an allowance it is still free-as-a-subscriber. That is the whole point of the getting the allowance in the first place. If the chance of getting the object is implemented over time as the same chance that you would get the similar item before f2p, then there is effectively zero change, but you want to complain because you are not getting the item for free. You would have had zero chance to get the time prior to f2p if you were not shelling out $15 a month for the privilege of being able to access that random drop in the first place.

the only answer people can give is by experience in other games and generally the answer is

 

The more lockboxes tht sell the more and more the game starts to be moulded around them. after the first few months lockboxes become the media of choice of releasing content.

QFT!! Just log onto STO and see whats happening over there, they have pillaged the playerbase to oblivion, withholding content to put it into these cash-grab boxes............Anyone defending such a blatant and almost criminal scam is a tool..........I swear some players just troll these boards because they are:

1) trolls with no life

2) The sort of player who has no skill, therefore NEEDS PTW.....

Seriously BW/EA and all the other fanbois, look before you leap, this game hangs on the edge and will go either way.....

QFT!! Just log onto STO and see whats happening over there, they have pillaged the playerbase to oblivion, withholding content to put it into these cash-grab boxes............Anyone defending such a blatant and almost criminal scam is a tool..........I swear some players just troll these boards because they are:

1) trolls with no life

2) The sort of player who has no skill, therefore NEEDS PTW.....

 

Seriously BW/EA and all the other fanbois, look before you leap, this game hangs on the edge and will go either way.....

This.

If they want to make money from a cashshop by selling us unique and cool items we want, fine. Sell us those items. Don't sell us a lockbox (cartel pack) with a chance to contain said item.

QFT!! Just log onto STO and see whats happening over there, they have pillaged the playerbase to oblivion, withholding content to put it into these cash-grab boxes............Anyone defending such a blatant and almost criminal scam is a tool..........I swear some players just troll these boards because they are:

1) trolls with no life

2) The sort of player who has no skill, therefore NEEDS PTW.....

 

Seriously BW/EA and all the other fanbois, look before you leap, this game hangs on the edge and will go either way.....

It they follow the STO model, then whilst they'll get a boost for maybe 6-12 months, this game active accounts will be lucky to be more than 100,000 by the Christmas after this one (14 months time).

i'm happy to see this thread is still going on, and without much flaming either.

personally going by what's in game at the min, we already have loot boxes only difference is these are not locked at the moment.

So those who think lock boxes are a good idea, i have a question for you. how many useful items have you got out of the already in game drop boxes? personally i've had about 1 item in 10 that's been useful the rest i think of has just credits. (stats i want but armor class thats useless!)

now how would u feel it you was to be charged for the same loot boxes.

the other thing that makes me think, is maybe the whole time f2p was on the cards, after all like i said loot boxes are allrdy in game and will be giving them some good stats to base lock boxes on.

QFT!! Just log onto STO and see whats happening over there, they have pillaged the playerbase to oblivion, withholding content to put it into these cash-grab boxes............Anyone defending such a blatant and almost criminal scam is a tool..........I swear some players just troll these boards because they are:

1) trolls with no life

2) The sort of player who has no skill, therefore NEEDS PTW.....

 

Seriously BW/EA and all the other fanbois, look before you leap, this game hangs on the edge and will go either way.....

So anyone disagreeing with you is a tool? Or a troll? Or can't play the game? Even if you don't agree, there's no need to be insulting. I disagree with you, but I respect your opinion.

DCUonline does this. They have a random box that drops and its locked. Sub players get to open these boxes for free. They drop low end to somewhat high end and rare appearance items that only come in these boxes. F2P players have to buy key rings that have 5 keys on it. You are limited how many boxes you get in 30 days (sub and f2p player).

If SWTOR brought this in I would be happy. It be a nice perk to keep us paying cutomers an advantage perk for paying.

If people want to moan and gripe about it than start paying than sub up and play.

Plenty of player grip over in DC that they have all these boxes and dont want to play to unlock them. To bad not sad we tell them as it a perk for us and its shared to them for a price.

Only thing is make the boxes bind on pick up so they cant be sold or traded.

DCUonline does this. They have a random box that drops and its locked. Sub players get to open these boxes for free. They drop low end to somewhat high end and rare appearance items that only come in these boxes. F2P players have to buy key rings that have 5 keys on it. You are limited how many boxes you get in 30 days (sub and f2p player).

 

If SWTOR brought this in I would be happy. It be a nice perk to keep us paying cutomers an advantage perk for paying.

 

If people want to moan and gripe about it than start paying than sub up and play.

 

Plenty of player grip over in DC that they have all these boxes and dont want to play to unlock them. To bad not sad we tell them as it a perk for us and its shared to them for a price.

 

Only thing is make the boxes bind on pick up so they cant be sold or traded.

I do think there needs to be something for the players who sub, like a chance to loot a key from npc's, whereas FTP players would have to buy the keys.

I do think there needs to be something for the players who sub, like a chance to loot a key from npc's, whereas FTP players would have to buy the keys.

In STO you can grind currency to buy the keys too (that is in addition to the stipends). But again people conveniently forget you can grind for a couple days to get enough currency to buy a 10 pack of keys as they rail against the system (I guess they are jealous over their misfortune in not being able to get a ship drop).

interesting, well i've been in contact with a few people over the last week. this is one reply i received today with a nice telephone meeting booked for tomorrow.

The Commission does have an overarching interest in technological developments and is monitoring developments in gambling-style social games and other innovations. Even where a product is not strictly gambling (ie there is no gambling for money or money's worth) we are keeping a close eye on developments to see if there are particular risks, especially to young people and other vulnerable groups, from the growing convergence of social gaming and commercial gambling that we should advise the government about. Also, technological advances are testing the boundaries of the Act so the Gambling Commission monitors what is going on across a wide range of activities, whether on-line or terrestrial, (such as lotteries, gaming machine sales and including social gaming sites) to ensure that unlicensed gambling (as defined by the Act) is not taking place.

 

Once more, thank you for bringing this to our attention.

that's from the commission, i think it means we already seen what's going on and we are watching.

Although some operators are outside of our regulatory authority we recognise the concerns over the way that these games are being marketed. Our advice is that players take this up with the operator directly in the first instance. and if you believe that their advertising is unfairly targeting young people then you can complain to The Advertising Standards Authority who are responsible for all advertising in the UK.

i think its just a matter of time before these company's start getting there hands smacked. just a matter of US players keeping the heat on. after all without our money these company's are nothing.

In STO you can grind currency to buy the keys too (that is in addition to the stipends). But again people conveniently forget you can grind for a couple days to get enough currency to buy a 10 pack of keys as they rail against the system (I guess they are jealous over their misfortune in not being able to get a ship drop).

156 was the average it took to gain anything of decent quality out of the sto boxes, now tell me how long it will take u to get 156 keys the free way? even someone that subs to sto would have to save longer than a couple of days.... there is no way in sto you can gain 10 keys for free in 2 days... and even if you could 10 keys if alot different to the 156 you would need.

That's exactly my damn point. Meaning that they're going to eventually put things in there that people HAVE to buy to have an edge, because from what we've seen so far, instead of make the game worth the subscription, they just want a cash cow, so they're going to do whatever they can to milk you, they have thrown integrity out of the window.

Yes they have, great replies!!!

And to answer the guys question about "what would you like them to put in there", I'd answer NOTHING that a subscriber doesn't have access to IN-GAME! Yet even that's going to be tampered with...just look at the new things that cost 350 BH comms...they'll make the grind so godawful long that nobody in their right mind would do it that way.