I love to play MMO's but the massive gear ladders are so tiring and so boring. Like everyone else, I do like to see new shiny stuff, but I sure don't like the gear dependence.

 

It's all just a huge grind and it feels like what really matters in the game is just gear, not the content, not the challenge, but just gear. Which = grinding treadmill.

 

I remember my first attempt on Battle of Ium with some friends a couple of months ago. We were having a blast, we were having fun, barely staying alive on the first boss....Then the engrage timer kicked in. Wipes and failure. Very frustrating and very lazy.

 

Jump ahead a month later. We run Battle of Ilum and fly right through it. It was so incredibly annoying because it wasn't skill or play that enabled us to succeed, it was having better gear.

 

So, is this what we have to look forward to? Grinding and Gear Gating? Isn't there a way to challenge players without gear dependency? What happens to players that take a summer break? Do they end up so far behind that end game content is now further than ever from their grasp?

 

Tell me there is more than just Gear Checks and Gear Gating, over and over and over and over again. I don't have the answer, but I am not in the business. If somebody does indeed figure this out, it will become the next generation of MMO's.

Tell me there is more than just Gear Checks and Gear Gating, over and over and over and over again. I don't have the answer, but I am not in the business. If somebody does indeed figure this out, it will become the next generation of MMO's.

 

Sorry, but I can't.

 

TOR is an extraordinarily vanilla-flavoured, cookie-cutter, I-wish-was-WoW game.

 

Once you've taken a character or two to 50 and ground out some gear... yeah... that's it.

 

And that's why people are leaving in droves.

 

Zzzzzzzzzzzzz...

Edited May 4, 2012 by blur

I love to play MMO's but the massive gear ladders are so tiring and so boring. Like everyone else, I do like to see new shiny stuff, but I sure don't like the gear dependence.

 

It's all just a huge grind and it feels like what really matters in the game is just gear, not the content, not the challenge, but just gear. Which = grinding treadmill.

 

I remember my first attempt on Battle of Ium with some friends a couple of months ago. We were having a blast, we were having fun, barely staying alive on the first boss....Then the engrage timer kicked in. Wipes and failure. Very frustrating and very lazy.

 

Jump ahead a month later. We run Battle of Ilum and fly right through it. It was so incredibly annoying because it wasn't skill or play that enabled us to succeed, it was having better gear.

 

So, is this what we have to look forward to? Grinding and Gear Gating? Isn't there a way to challenge players without gear dependency? What happens to players that take a summer break? Do they end up so far behind that end game content is now further than ever from their grasp?

 

Tell me there is more than just Gear Checks and Gear Gating, over and over and over and over again. I don't have the answer, but I am not in the business. If somebody does indeed figure this out, it will become the next generation of MMO's.

 

Ok i see what you dont like, now please try tell us what you want out of an MMO?

 

Gearing is a path, I enjoy our weekly ops. Ill go in geared knowing theres nothing at all going to drop for me but it helps gear our new guys and we do have a laugh.

 

Next gen MMO? bring it on, Like you i just cant see where they should go, all I can do is make the most of what we get.

The gear grind is one of the carrots on a stick that MMOs use to keep players paying for subscriptions. They've even come up with this neat little trick to create multiple tiers of difficulty for the same content. Do a FP on EZMode and get gear. Then once you have that, do it on harder mode and get gear++. They get twice the mileage out of the same flashpoint for tweaking a few numbers.

 

That's not a bad thing if the players enjoy it.

 

The drawback to the gear treadmill in this game is that sometimes the carrot is rotten and shriveled and smells all funky and you have to wait an hour on queue for the treadmill, if one is even available.

The gear grind is one of the carrots on a stick that MMOs use to keep players paying for subscriptions. They've even come up with this neat little trick to create multiple tiers of difficulty for the same content. Do a FP on EZMode and get gear. Then once you have that, do it on harder mode and get gear++. They get twice the mileage out of the same flashpoint for tweaking a few numbers.

 

That's not a bad thing if the players enjoy it.

 

The drawback to the gear treadmill in this game is that sometimes the carrot is rotten and shriveled and smells all funky and you have to wait an hour on queue for the treadmill, if one is even available.

 

An additional drawback to gear grind and gear score is that the player base can become quickly segregated and there are those players that adopt an aura of superiority about how elite they are and refuse to help out or train others to even compete. There becomes a wide divide. I am not talking about "putting in the time" or not or trying to get something for "free". I am talking about having such a large gap in upper level gear scores that it then becomes extremely hard to catch up to even see end game content. Case in point the state of WoW today for the most part.

An additional drawback to gear grind and gear score is that the player base can become quickly segregated and there are those players that adopt an aura of superiority about how elite they are and refuse to help out or train others to even compete. There becomes a wide divide. I am not talking about "putting in the time" or not or trying to get something for "free". I am talking about having such a large gap in upper level gear scores that it then becomes extremely hard to catch up to even see end game content. Case in point the state of WoW today for the most part.

 

This issue is even worse when you factor in the gear split between PvP and PvE play. You now have 2 separate gear types to get, and the player base is split down the middle, with no way for lower tier players to compete or participate with established characters.

 

The current model only serves to lock out the majority of the playerbase from actually playing together. You have Rakata and I have quest gear, we cant play together. You have PvP gear and I have quest gear, we cant play together.

 

So the only real shared play is from 10-49 in warzones when everyone is on semi- even ground. And even then gear and level difference creates advantage, but at least theres some parity and inclusiveness.

 

There just seems to be multiple factors to keep players apart and segregated into gear/level groupings, but so little to bring players together for shared play on even footing.

 

Theres a major disconnect between the ideal of MMOs and the reality of playing one.

You don't want the next generation of MMOs. You want the previous generation of MMOs.

 

In MMOs past gearing up was a means to an end not an end in and of itself. You grinded out the best gear in the game so you would have best stats for pvp so your guild could take over a castle/town/area/resource. This game doesn't have that and it's a major oversight which I hope they are fixing.

 

But while we are talking about gearing up the worst part right now is that in effect you need 3 sets of armor to have the best armor in the game. 1 full set of war hero, 6-7 pieces of war hero to pull mods and enhancements from then a full set of campaign gear for the armoring.

I love to play MMO's but the massive gear ladders are so tiring and so boring. Like everyone else, I do like to see new shiny stuff, but I sure don't like the gear dependence.

 

It's all just a huge grind and it feels like what really matters in the game is just gear, not the content, not the challenge, but just gear. Which = grinding treadmill.

 

I remember my first attempt on Battle of Ium with some friends a couple of months ago. We were having a blast, we were having fun, barely staying alive on the first boss....Then the engrage timer kicked in. Wipes and failure. Very frustrating and very lazy.

 

Jump ahead a month later. We run Battle of Ilum and fly right through it. It was so incredibly annoying because it wasn't skill or play that enabled us to succeed, it was having better gear.

 

So, is this what we have to look forward to? Grinding and Gear Gating? Isn't there a way to challenge players without gear dependency? What happens to players that take a summer break? Do they end up so far behind that end game content is now further than ever from their grasp?

 

Tell me there is more than just Gear Checks and Gear Gating, over and over and over and over again. I don't have the answer, but I am not in the business. If somebody does indeed figure this out, it will become the next generation of MMO's.

 

Hate to say it but grind grind grind and grind some more for your gear is what swtor is all about.

PVP is more about gear and less about skill in swtor...very gear dependent .

And for those who say otherwise...throw on some lvl 50 blue gear then take a shot in a pvp match against a guy in a full set of the top pvp gear and let me know how that goes.

It was the same in Age of Conan. A ll I did was pvp and had all the top gear and new players without the gear had no chance no matter how good they may have been.

Edited May 4, 2012 by kiddynomite

That's part of the reason why I still think Bioware is better off making Kotor 3.

For any MMORG that has gear that gives you more stats (makes you stronger0, there will always be a "progression" where you are constantly improving your gear, until you get to the maximum gear levels available at the time (or give up trying and go to the forums to cry about it).

 

WoW has this, SWTOR has this, any gear based MMORG will have it.

 

If you don't like it, then go find a non gear-based MMORG.

What grind? Very casual player here and after finding a reasonable and fairly matured guild to raid with, everything became pie, in an enjoyable way. OPS ( EV and KP) are pretty easy. EC is a bit of a challenge but we will get there.

 

Be a in a terrible guild who have "schedules and requirements" and it becomes a grind. More so if you are trying pug it and spend 3 hours trying to clear EV HM.Not fun.

 

To your question however, being in a good guild matters. Being full rakata I honestly don't need to do any of the raids anymore( It will be a while before we hit EC HM) but I still run with my guild because for some odd reason, I do find the raiding in SWTOR more enjoyable.If nothing helps, then perhaps it is best to lay off MMOs for a bit.

Edited May 4, 2012 by arare

The actual question is:

 

What is an appropriate challenge for players?

 

 

Sadly there is not a single answer to this since players are different, like different things, have a different backgrounds, have different skills/knowledge.

A company doesn't want to frustrate some players and replaces skill with time spent. A positive side effect for the company is that it allows them to lead players through the game with a relatively small potential for frustration.

 

 

Another thing is that MMOs are so combat centered that players seem to expect if they fight a monster of their own level they must eventually win at some point.

 

A different kind of challenge could be that a raid group has to split up. One half must distract an opponent that is invincible. The other half is trying to achieve some game goals within the same area. And the raid has only a specified time frame until their resources run out.

Or you could have the players solve some puzzles. But then out of lazyness a considerable chunk of players will probably resort to solvers (even for easter eggs like an in game mastermind game).

I hate the gear grind. I played Two MMOs pre-WoW, Ultima Online and FFXI. They had small gear grinds hell in UO you could get by with just a robe and hat or even naked with a HQ craftable item that were easy to come by. In FFXI the gear grind was more, but most of the items (At least in the early stages) were tradeable, therefore making it much more accessible to everyone. When I played WoW and saw Bind on Pick up or Bind on Equip I was shocked.. I was like what? I can't trade this after I've used it? Or even trade it at all? Much less Stats were priority rather than skills themselves.

 

Rather than Gear grinds I rather go back to the old days of MMOs where I can do anything I wish and not miss out on the general population or friends progress because I am lacking gear. I rather be able to do anything I wish, own a house, own some meaningful pets (dragons, bears, horses etc), Set sail to anywhere I wish to fish or treasure hunt, kill whoever I wish to kill or even steal (pickpocket), run a little store, declare guild wars. Just have my own adventure. Sure they can setup quests if they wish or even raids but make them dynamic without the gear checks.

 

It's funny that I see time and time again developers or companies make more and more themepark MMOs only to dwindle in size weeks or months afterwards.

Edited May 4, 2012 by Aricus

IIsn't there a way to challenge players without gear dependency? What happens to players that take a summer break? Do they end up so far behind that end game content is now further than ever from their grasp?

 

Fundamentally, players need something to strive for. Gear has become that. However, you only have so many resources available, so you turn things into grinding to get gear. If you look back at Everquest, it was a never ending quest. It took insane hours of killing mobs over and over to get levels. If you died, you lost XP. At high levels, this meant losing levels!

 

So MMO, but their nature, will have a grind to it. I think if you want a model of how to make it feel less like a grind, look at DAOC:

 

1. No PvP Gear

2. Rewards give slight improvement to your character, but not something that is unbalancing

3. Open world PvP (not instanced warzones.)

4. Gear comes from PvE.

5. No real grinding to get gear anymore (that is you don't run the some quest over and over to get the item you want.)

6. Multiple ways to get gear.

7. Gear is important, but up to a point. Gear won't really let you win, but it will get you killed.

 

So the best solution would be to allow the PvE people to keep grinding, and then redo PvP to be along DAOC lines. If you are out there fighting other players over real objectives, earning realm ranks, then you are having fun and not grinding.

Sorry, but I can't.

 

TOR is an extraordinarily vanilla-flavoured, cookie-cutter, I-wish-was-WoW game.

 

Once you've taken a character or two to 50 and ground out some gear... yeah... that's it.

 

And that's why people are leaving in droves.

 

Zzzzzzzzzzzzz...

 

yup that pretty much covers it for me, i was really looking forward to exploring and getting lost in these 'huge' planets they have creatred for us but once you're don lvling on that planet, aside from datacrons you really have no reason to come back there

It's funny that I see time and time again developers or companies make more and more themepark MMOs only to dwindle in size weeks or months afterwards.

 

It is because WoW changed the economics. WoW introduced console gamers to the hobby. It also brought in an insane amount of money. Companies (EA) want that huge amount of money. That requires a huge investment. They also know they will need to get the WoW players. This creates a problem:

 

If they make the game too different from WoW, then your WoW players won't like it. This means a small population. If it is too much like WoW, then they think why not just go back to WoW? To have a large population on a game and one bringing in lots of money, you have to balance this. Adding on to this, you have companies that need to handle the influx of one million players and then have to deal with the drop off. You have to handle the drop off in a way that keeps people around and does not create a bad signal to other people to stay away.

 

Now, if you want really good games, you will need a company that is content with smaller revenue due to fewer players. It will also mean getting people to play it even with older looking graphics. For example, you can look at Dominus (basically DAOC in space). It was trying to do that, but ran out of money and as of May 1st, development stopped and it is not coming out.

 

Game development costs are too high and investors are too risk adverse to try something different.

It is because WoW changed the economics. WoW introduced console gamers to the hobby. It also brought in an insane amount of money. Companies (EA) want that huge amount of money. That requires a huge investment. They also know they will need to get the WoW players. This creates a problem:

 

If they make the game too different from WoW, then your WoW players won't like it. This means a small population. If it is too much like WoW, then they think why not just go back to WoW? To have a large population on a game and one bringing in lots of money, you have to balance this. Adding on to this, you have companies that need to handle the influx of one million players and then have to deal with the drop off. You have to handle the drop off in a way that keeps people around and does not create a bad signal to other people to stay away.

 

Now, if you want really good games, you will need a company that is content with smaller revenue due to fewer players. It will also mean getting people to play it even with older looking graphics. For example, you can look at Dominus (basically DAOC in space). It was trying to do that, but ran out of money and as of May 1st, development stopped and it is not coming out.

 

Game development costs are too high and investors are too risk adverse to try something different.

 

WoW is the only Themepark MMO or any MMO to have HUGE succuess. It's an anomaly. No company is going to reach teh WoW sub numbers anytime soon by copying WoW. However, I understand what you're saying but this appoarch is something that other companies won't be successful in. In order for them to reach the success they need to turn away from Wow and develop a new type of MMO genre.

 

On a different prospective. For 60 years Disney cartoon movies were un-touch by the dozens of other cartoon studios out there. They all tried to make cartoon featured films by trying to copy Disney but in the end they all failed and it allowed Disney to capitalize on the cartoon movie industry for decades. Even in the cartoon business for decades until WB decided to take their cartoons to a whole new level. Same for Pixar/Dreamworks and their movies.

 

Point of the story you have to come up with something different rather than trying to copy your competitor to be successful. You'r enot going to beat WoW by making another WoW.. They already established a loyal fan base of customers and they won't leave until you give them something completely new and different.

 

But this is a sad fact for all businesses and industries. They see something working, copy it, paste your brand on it and sell it. Rarely does it ever work though.

Edited May 4, 2012 by Aricus

gear grind sucks and i dont care for that type of end game, what happend to crafting great gear by having to farm for great resources and getting dedicated crafters to create a thriving economy ?

Personally, I don't think content should be balanced around the best gear but rather the best gear should be hard to obtain (and not through RNG either). Maybe balance one ultra tough world boss around the best equipment (whose drops would be vanity items and titles, for everyone not just a RNG based roll), which would just be an accomplishment boss where you'd really have to go out of your own way to find as if he were a +10 datacron.

 

Also, I don't like the gear grind.

Edited May 4, 2012 by Agemnon

The fact that your character progresses through some sort of a grind, through both gear and leveling, is the basis for each RPG going all the way back to pen and paper, D&D-like games.

 

Take away those elements, and you may as well be playing Halo. Static characters with no progression would be quite boring to me.

The fact that your character progresses through some sort of a grind, through both gear and leveling, is the basis for each RPG going all the way back to pen and paper, D&D-like games.

 

Take away those elements, and you may as well be playing Halo. Static characters with no progression would be quite boring to me.

 

Every major MMO I have played is a gear grind at end game.

 

I honestly get a kick out of people that have this long term memory issue that other MMO's don't do the same.

 

Not saying this game is perfect but it has the same motivation to play as other MMO's. Gear or AA. Not much more to it.

 

People keep talking about all this exploring...it would keep you in the game for possibly one more subscription cycle at best...once you roam that empty planet and look over that last hill, how many times are you going to go back?

Every major MMO I have played is a gear grind at end game.

 

I honestly get a kick out of people that have this long term memory issue that other MMO's don't do the same.

 

Not saying this game is perfect but it has the same motivation to play as other MMO's. Gear or AA. Not much more to it.

 

People keep talking about all this exploring...it would keep you in the game for possibly one more subscription cycle at best...once you roam that empty planet and look over that last hill, how many times are you going to go back?

 

Not all major MMO's were gear grinds. UO and FFXI wasn't a huge gear grind like today. In fact they were very minimal. In UO the game did focus on exploring along with other stuff like housing, player economy and etc. FFXI was pretty similar except gear played more of a role but nothing close than today's standards. that game was more of a leveling grind though.

Gear grinding is what is killing MMO in my case. I see gear as a tool, not a reward, so the endgame content of most game meant end of game for me. Getting gear that will allow you get better gear is a carrot I'm not interest in. The system that fitted me the best was the one in DAoC (I stopped playing a few months after the first expansion...), where you could craft the armor you wanted, with the bonus you wanted, to complement your skills.

 

The redeeming quality of SWTOR for me is the multiple stories of the classes. I've always have alts, but now it's just better. I find playing other classes much less repetitive than doing the same instances/battlegrounds (flashpoints/warzones) over and over again. The worse is if it is for a random drop...

 

MMOs have become a little too much themeparkish if you ask me, the number of rides in the parks are getting smaller too.

Nope you are not the only one... I hated it in WoW after a year of chasing the carrot for the sake of "WAITING" for it to change, but it never happened.. As one gent said.. This is all about money and what is easy.. Blizzard found out you can get MORE content just by adding in "tiers" on Diablo 2.. It is cheap and easy to use the same dungeon for different levels (normal , hard mode).. and when that isnt' enough they'll come up with expert level for a new tier.. or whatever.. Sheep are easily entertained with treadmills.. Here is to hoping that one day a dev will say.. NO to gear grinds, and YES to character development in a dynamic world.. OOPS.. that takes more money.. lol

Every major MMO I have played is a gear grind at end game.

 

I honestly get a kick out of people that have this long term memory issue that other MMO's don't do the same.

 

Not saying this game is perfect but it has the same motivation to play as other MMO's. Gear or AA. Not much more to it.

 

People keep talking about all this exploring...it would keep you in the game for possibly one more subscription cycle at best...once you roam that empty planet and look over that last hill, how many times are you going to go back?

 

Of my MMO experience: SWG, DAoC, FFXI, WAR. None of those are gear grinds at all.

 

In SWG and DAoC, a lot of the best gear (at least until later expansions in DAoC) was made by crafters which was purchased and put to use in PvP.

 

In FFXI, some of the best gear was crafted while others were dropped from various bosses or dynamis or other large group dungeons. One goal of the game was to get the best gear, but there were a lot of other things to do which required better gear to participate in, so the goal alone wasn't the goal.

 

In WAR, gear was sold by vendors or won from lottery rolls as you participated in PvP, so it was essentially given to you as you participated in the focus of the game.

 

The problem, as I see it, is that in themeparks games such as this, having the best gear is the ultimate goal in the game, therefore everything that you do to reach that goal is a grind. In other games, the gear was simply a means to allow you to participate in the ultimate goal of the game, which was other content (FFXI) or PvP (SWG, DAoC, WAR).

 

The gear rewarded by the current top raids in WoW, SWTOR, Rift, and other similar games has no purpose whatsoever until the next level of content is released and even then, it's not necessary to have collected the gear from the previous content. This was not always true for WoW. During Classic and BC, simply beating a raid was a real accomplishment on its own merit and the gear obtained from a raid was often needed in order to be able to beat the next boss in the same raid all the way up to the final boss. This gave something for players to work toward as they progressed, but it is not the case anymore as there are fewer steps between gear levels, so it's easy to get the gear that is one step below the best, which is plenty good enough to kill all of the bosses in the top raid.