So your opposition is based on "I don't like it." That's fine as that is the only rational reason to oppose AC change.

AC swapping is still a clunky process and doesn't really resolve the underlying concern. ACs should not even exist, and we should be able to respec into other trees without also having to swap ACs. If you swap your AC, you still have to respec (at least once) your other AC, possibly more than once as things advance. Makes more sense to take the AC out of the equation and simply go for the respec.

By moving all 5 skill trees under one main class, rather than 6 trees under two sub classes, you can eliminate the need for an AC swap and just stick to the basics of the field respec. Same result as an AC swap, less effort on our part (although just as much to implement by BW). Though getting them to add ANY kind of feature to a Free model is a shot in the dark, unless they make it SUB only. Even then, balancing it between Sub. F2P, and Preferred would be a night mare.

At this point, they are better off doing nothing at all, which is why they've remained silent on the issue. They know it will be a nightmare of compromise and implementation.

I do not support AC and the devs would have to be utterly stupid to support it as well being that revenue would drop.

Explain please? Players who are happily playing SWTOR aren't the ones who would be using this.

AC swapping is still a clunky process and doesn't really resolve the underlying concern

Whatever..

ACs should not even exist

OK, so now we know how the Superman_AZMMO will work.

Whatever..

OK, so now we know how the Superman_AZMMO will work.

My entire post, and this is all you reply to? Sounds to me like I have a valid point and you have jack squat for an actual rebuttal.

Page 501. While it is extremely humorous to see this thread still chugging along. I think that Bioware should put people out of their misery and just chime in stating that this is unlikely to ever happen.

I gotta imagine they have running bets on it...like when we hit page 500, I guarantee someone had to buy a buncha people lunch. Or maybe at 501 someone had to eat their own underwear. I'd never reply and just see how damn long it lives.

I gotta imagine they have running bets on it...like when we hit page 500, I guarantee someone had to buy a buncha people lunch. Or maybe at 501 someone had to eat their own underwear. I'd never reply and just see how damn long it lives.

It happens on 501st

Always here when you need them

Wasn't this on like page 12 yesterday?

Sadly, someone keeps bumping it. Even with nothing to say. Much like what I just wrote

AC swapping is still a clunky process and doesn't really resolve the underlying concern.

What is the underlying concern you have?

AC swapping clearly resolves an issue some players might encounter having selected the wrong AC at level 10, or the ability to open up role selection in end game content.

AC swapping certainly isn't as clunky as the 'AC merge' you seem to favour.

ACs should not even exist, and we should be able to respec into other trees without also having to swap ACs. If you swap your AC, you still have to respec (at least once) your other AC, possibly more than once as things advance. Makes more sense to take the AC out of the equation and simply go for the respec.

I think this shows how you've completely failed to understand the two stages of specialisation that SWTOR uses in its class structure.

The prime role of ACs is to segregate certain abilities away from certain specialisations (Roles).

It is probably over concerns about PvP balance with the ability to self heal as a tank. Now I know other MMOs have classes that cover all of the main roles under one roof, but having seen how effective Treek is (Tank that can self heal) compared to my other tanking companions I can't help but wonder how much more effective a player Tank/Heal would be.

By moving all 5 skill trees under one main class, rather than 6 trees under two sub classes, you can eliminate the need for an AC swap and just stick to the basics of the field respec. Same result as an AC swap, less effort on our part (although just as much to implement by BW).

As I mentioned above there is more ability segregation within the ACs than just those gained from the specialisation you choose.

In effect there are three groups of abilities:

Group 1 Abilities - Class

Group 2 Abilities - Advanced Class

Group 3 Abilities - Specialisation (Role)

Group 1 and Group 2 abilities are essentially the same for everyone that chooses that class and advanced class, they vary only in rank and have a credit cost to advance.

Group 3 Abilities are largely passive modifiers to those abilities from Group 1 and Group 2, with 2-3 active abilities that define the role. They are developed from level 10 with the use of training points that can be refunded when respeccing.

The largest hurdle an AC swap feature has to overcome is the retention of advancement in ranks of the other ACs Group 2 abilities. And, the need to point out before a player makes this choice they will need a reserve of credits (although with the ease of earning creditis through the CM and GTN this is less of an issue than previous).

Though getting them to add ANY kind of feature to a Free model is a shot in the dark, unless they make it SUB only. Even then, balancing it between Sub. F2P, and Preferred would be a night mare.

There are no balance concerns with the 'AC swap' feature. A level 55 Powertech, would still only have access to Level 55 Powertech abilities whether or not they had been a Mercenary at any point during their advancement.

And, it's more how useful a feature is at adding convenience and a likely source of revenue. AC swapping certainly shows a potential for implementation through the cartel market appealing to non-sub players as much, if not more so, than subs.

At this point, they are better off doing nothing at all, which is why they've remained silent on the issue. They know it will be a nightmare of compromise and implementation.

They have not remained silent on the subject. When asked directly they gave a clear answer. I don't feel they need to reiterate their original answer until such a time as they feel their views on the feature have changed.

Wasn't this on like page 12 yesterday?

The thread's nearly a year old. It'll probably keep on going until the dreaded 1000 page mark, then either be closed or remade by the mods.

They have not remained silent on the subject. When asked directly they gave a clear answer. I don't feel they need to reiterate their original answer until such a time as they feel their views on the feature have changed.

Not sure who the bigger apologist is anymore, Andryah or you. As to the topic at hand, I've given my opinion, explained my position on the matter, and am getting tired of circling the same old drain at this point.

People are free to quote me, or misquote me, but I have no further desire to perpetuate this thread. So, as of this post, I am no longer concerned with this topic, nor its ardent defenders. Good day.

People are free to quote me, or misquote me, but I have no further desire to perpetuate this thread. So, as of this post, I am no longer concerned with this topic, nor its ardent defenders. Good day.

"... and I had to post to tell you all that, rather than just stop posting, because I am JUST THAT IMPORTANT!!"

Now, please excuse me, I need to go find every thread I ever posted to and post to each thread that I am not going to post to that thread again, if that is indeed the case. Because I am important too, dangit. We all are!

It seems I have to say it again, since folks just cant seem to grasp the concept that they are not, nor are they ever likely to be the voices of the devs....

You do not likely speak for Bioware or it's employees. Stop making comments on their behalf, like "they have not commented because" and "it will not happen because they hate the idea" if you wish to present any sort of legitimacy when it comes to your opinions. You actually have no basis to make statements such as these.

Do not present your opinions with respect to the boon or folly of the AC system as facts, since they are most likely your opinion and nothing more. That means comments like "end of story", "thats the last word" and " will never happen" are comments that demonstrate a lack of self respect.

There is nothing wrong with presenting the opinion that AC change is a bad idea...I am of that opinion. There is something wrong with presenting the idea that you speak for Bioware or represent the last word on the matter.

Because it is very likely you do and/or are neither.

 

I think this shows how you've completely failed to understand the two stages of specialisation that SWTOR uses in its class structure.

The prime role of ACs is to segregate certain abilities away from certain specialisations (Roles).

It is probably over concerns about PvP balance with the ability to self heal as a tank. Now I know other MMOs have classes that cover all of the main roles under one roof, but having seen how effective Treek is (Tank that can self heal) compared to my other tanking companions I can't help but wonder how much more effective a player Tank/Heal would be.

The devs have said that they designed the game so that no single character has access to all three roles AT ANY TIME, and not just at the same time.

To this end, they designed the AC's (CLASSES) such that no single AC (CLASS) can tank, heal and DPS. They made the choice of AC (CLASS) PERMANENT. They even went so far as to advise each and every player at least 4 separate times by two different NPC's that your choice of AC (CLASS) was PERMANENT. They even require each and every player to confirm that they understand this by clicking the confirm box in the confirmation window, confirming that they are making the choice they want to make and that they understand it is a PERMANENT choice. .

As I mentioned above there is more ability segregation within the ACs than just those gained from the specialisation you choose.

In effect there are three groups of abilities:

Group 1 Abilities - Class

Group 2 Abilities - Advanced Class

Group 3 Abilities - Specialisation (Role)

Group 1 and Group 2 abilities are essentially the same for everyone that chooses that class and advanced class, they vary only in rank and have a credit cost to advance.

Group 3 Abilities are largely passive modifiers to those abilities from Group 1 and Group 2, with 2-3 active abilities that define the role. They are developed from level 10 with the use of training points that can be refunded when respeccing.

The largest hurdle an AC swap feature has to overcome is the retention of advancement in ranks of the other ACs Group 2 abilities. And, the need to point out before a player makes this choice they will need a reserve of credits (although with the ease of earning creditis through the CM and GTN this is less of an issue than previous).

Allow me to quote you:

Let's not confuse the term Class, Advanced Class, Specialisation and Role any more than we need to

IMO, the three groups would be:

Group 1 STORY

Group 2 CLASS (advanced class)

Group 3 SPEC

This is backed up by the previously quoted statements from the devs, which have never been contradicted and therefore remain the last word from the devs regarding AC's being different classes.

They have not remained silent on the subject. When asked directly they gave a clear answer. I don't feel they need to reiterate their original answer until such a time as they feel their views on the feature have changed.

Has there been ANYTHING from the devs in over a year and a half regarding class changes? NO

Have the devs even uttered a single syllable about class changes since that statement from over a year and a half ago? NO

Has there been even a hint of a whisper about class changes since that statement from over a year and a half ago? NO

Have there been multiple threads about class changes in that time, including this over 500 page thread? YES

Have the devs even once popped into a thread to indicate that class changes are even still on the wall of crazy? NO

Have the devs even made a statement at any of the cantina events that class changes are even still on the wall of crazy? NO

Have the devs addressed other issues that may or may not still be in development in that time? YES

Have the devs been much more forthcoming with information within the past year? YES

There has been no statement from the devs to tell us definitively that class changes are no planned in the foreseeable future, so you are correct when you say that the last word from the devs regarding class changes is the statement from over a year and a half ago.

That statement from over a year and a half ago is more or less valid then the last statements from the devs regarding AC's being different CLASSES.

If you want to find some excuse as to why there has been nothing further from the devs regarding class changes, or that the last word from the d3evs regarding AC's being different classes or any other logical fact that would indicate that class changes likely will not be implemented in the near future, no one can stop you.

The devs originally stated that housing was not coming to the game and that was that...your starship was your house.

Many threads and suggestions supported the idea of adding it to the game, with many folks arguing against. Again, not a single word from the devs on the issue for more than a year.

Then, out of the blue an announcement that strongholds were coming to the game.

Sometimes...not all the time....but sometimes they do not mention something until they are ready to show something to folks. That could be the case here.

I hope their silence means they decided against it...but I realize that may not be the case.

The devs originally stated that housing was not coming to the game and that was that...your starship was your house.

 

Many threads and suggestions supported the idea of adding it to the game, with many folks arguing against. Again, not a single word from the devs on the issue for more than a year.

 

Then, out of the blue an announcement that strongholds were coming to the game.

 

Sometimes...not all the time....but sometimes they do not mention something until they are ready to show something to folks. That could be the case here.

 

I hope their silence means they decided against it...but I realize that may not be the case.

First, I have repeatedly acknowledged that ANYTHING is subject to change. The fact that something CAN be changed does not meant that it SHOULD be changed, though.

Second, you neglect to mention that the announcement of player housing being implemented came only after after two or three games in development, or close to release, were going to have player housing.

IMO, the decision to implement player housing had much more to do with the fact that new games were approaching release which would have player housing and much less to do with player housing having been under development during the time in which they were silent on that matter. IMO, they were NOT working on player housing during their silence, but rather decided to implement it in response to outside influence(other games including player housing).

IMO, if they really had been working on player housing during their silence (over a year, according to some posters), then they would have said "here is player housing" and NOT "we'll give you player housing in a few months" and then have to push it back even further.

So, using your example of player housing, I guess if there were two or three games in development, or close to release, that would allow you to change your CLASS willy nilly, then we could see a sudden announcement that they will be developing a way to allow class changes.

The devs have said that they designed the game so that no single character has access to all three roles AT ANY TIME, and not just at the same time.

 

To this end, they designed the AC's (CLASSES) such that no single AC (CLASS) can tank, heal and DPS. They made the choice of AC (CLASS) PERMANENT. They even went so far as to advise each and every player at least 4 separate times by two different NPC's that your choice of AC (CLASS) was PERMANENT. They even require each and every player to confirm that they understand this by clicking the confirm box in the confirmation window, confirming that they are making the choice they want to make and that they understand it is a PERMANENT choice. .

Just like your body type was once permanent? Or how about your characters appearance? Oh, what about your characters name? And the server you picked!? What about the species you chose? Or this game being P2P only and space being on-rails only and NO housing?

Permanent like that huh? LOL!

MMOs are always fluid Rat. This isn't 1980 where they ship a game cartridge and that's it.

First, I have repeatedly acknowledged that ANYTHING is subject to change. The fact that something CAN be changed does not meant that it SHOULD be changed, though.

 

Second, you neglect to mention that the announcement of player housing being implemented came only after after two or three games in development, or close to release, were going to have player housing.

 

IMO, the decision to implement player housing had much more to do with the fact that new games were approaching release which would have player housing and much less to do with player housing having been under development during the time in which they were silent on that matter. IMO, they were NOT working on player housing during their silence, but rather decided to implement it in response to outside influence(other games including player housing).

 

IMO, if they really had been working on player housing during their silence (over a year, according to some posters), then they would have said "here is player housing" and NOT "we'll give you player housing in a few months" and then have to push it back even further.

 

So, using your example of player housing, I guess if there were two or three games in development, or close to release, that would allow you to change your CLASS willy nilly, then we could see a sudden announcement that they will be developing a way to allow class changes.

It's a reasonable point of view. I do think they have been working on the idea long before it was announced by other games though...in fact I think it is likely they started the day one new dev team discussion something like....

"Ok, this is a new day and we are going to do some things differently. The last dev team was the team of "NO", what kind of things did folks want that they said no to, and can we provide those things to players? Lets take another look at that wall of crazy."

I think, unfortunately, that AC change is one of those things, as indicated by the current dev staff most recently. This worries me certainly, and I am not convinced they are not still considering it.

Just like your body type was once permanent? Or how about your characters appearance? Oh, what about your characters name? And the server you picked!? What about the species you chose? Or this game being P2P only and space being on-rails only and NO housing?

 

Permanent like that huh? LOL!

 

MMOs are always fluid Rat. This isn't 1980 where they ship a game cartridge and that's it.

Why am I NOT surprised that once again, in your zeal to attack me personally, you ignore the fact that I have repeatedly acknowledged that anything is subject to change. In fact, one of those acknowledgements which you continue to ignore in your zeal to attack me personally was in the post DIRECTLY above yours.

Am I correct in stating that body type, appearance, name and species are ALL COSMETIC changes and NOT changes in fundamental game play mechanics? I think I am.

Am I correct in stating that a server change does NOT result in a change in fundamental game play mechanics for a character? I think I am.

Am I correct in stating that going from subscription based game to having a F2P option does not change the fundamental game play mechanics for any classes (AC's)? I think I am.

Am I correct in stating that allowing class change WOULD change the fundamental game play mechanics for the character that changes class? I think I am.

There is a difference in the items you listed and allowing class changes, but I am sure you will continue to ignore that difference as it does no mesh with your desire to see class changes implemented. I am also sure that you will continue to ignore those parts of my post that do not mesh with your zeal to attack me personally.

So, using your example of player housing, I guess if there were two or three games in development, or close to release, that would allow you to change your CLASS willy nilly, then we could see a sudden announcement that they will be developing a way to allow class changes.

Changing advanced class is a far cry from changing your "CLASS willy nilly". You are just being silly there. There is a wider variation within an advanced class than there is between a pair of advanced classes specced in the same tree or even same role trees. Comparisons to most other games' classes are sloppy at best.

Allow me to quote you:

Let's not confuse the term Class, Advanced Class, Specialisation and Role any more than we need to

 

IMO, the three groups would be:

 

Group 1 STORY

Group 2 CLASS (advanced class)

Group 3 SPEC

You can quote me any time you like, but at least I use the same definitions with regards to Class, Advanced Class, Specialisation and Role that SWTOR actually does. It helps tremendously in a discussion if you use the terms with regards to the game at hand and not as some other game (you seem to use World of Warcraft a lot) defines it.

You've been given a link to SWTOR classes on numerous occasions, I guess once more wouldn't hurt

Changing advanced class is a far cry from changing your "CLASS willy nilly". You are just being silly there. There is a wider variation within an advanced class than there is between a pair of advanced classes specced in the same tree or even same role trees. Comparisons to most other games' classes are sloppy at best.

EVERY assassin can stealth. NO sorcerer can.

Assassins are MELEE tank and DPS. Sorcerers are RANGED DPS and heals.

EVERY operative can stealth. NO sniper can.

Those seems to be a pretty BIG differences right there.

In fact, the assassin being a melee ranged stealth class is an AWFUL lot like WoW's rogue and the sorcerer being RANGED DPS and heals seems an AWFUL lot like WoW's priest.

I guess those similarities are meaningless since YOU declared them to be "sloppy at best".

You can quote me any time you like, but at least I use the same definitions with regards to Class, Advanced Class, Specialisation and Role that SWTOR actually does. It helps tremendously in a discussion if you use the terms with regards to the game at hand and not as some other game (you seem to use World of Warcraft a lot) defines it.

You've been given a link to SWTOR classes on numerous occasions, I guess once more wouldn't hurt

 

http://www.swtor.com/holonet/classes

You been shown more than once that that page lists the story classes. You been asked more than once how your class is listed IN GAME, but I guess once more wouldn't hurt.

What does your guild roster( the in game documentation) list as your CLASS?

In fact, I dare you to provide a screen shot of your guild roster. You won't, though, because it would definitively list the vast majority of the member's CLASSES as mercenary, powertech, sniper, operative, gunslinger, scoundrel, commando, vanguard, etc.

In fact, the assassin being a melee ranged stealth class is an AWFUL lot like WoW's rogue and the sorcerer being RANGED DPS and heals seems an AWFUL lot like WoW's priest.

To continue your example, how many class quests do Rogues and Priests share? How many companions do they share? Do Rogues and Priests share a specialisation tree? Does unlocking a Priest give the same class buff as the Rogue? How many core class abilities do they share?