Extended DPS a slinger will pull ahead.

Low set up burst damage either AOE or single target is a commandos party trick.

The notorious differences being the unmatched first strike damage of the Grav->Demo opener of a commando and the extremely long deployment of a gunslingers best AOE during which a commando can have launched MV, Sticky and Pulse Cannon.

In a long fight a slinger can get over having to apply armour debuffs and the slower damage ramp up but gunnery commando will spike harder faster.

Extended DPS a slinger will pull ahead.

 

Low set up burst damage either AOE or single target is a commandos party trick.

 

The notorious differences being the unmatched first strike damage of the Grav->Demo opener of a commando and the extremely long deployment of a gunslingers best AOE during which a commando can have launched MV, Sticky and Pulse Cannon.

 

In a long fight a slinger can get over having to apply armour debuffs and the slower damage ramp up but gunnery commando will spike harder faster.

Eh, in a raid most slingers should be precasting flyby (can't do that with MV), and if you have a commando or guardian applying the debuff they don't have to worry about it (which is my excuse for always bringing my commando rather than gearing up my gunslinger and bringing that). After that depends on spec. Dirty FIghting/Hybrid does indeed have a longer rampup for their burst since they have to get 3 set up abilities before they use Wounding Blasts (I *think* that's the cull analog. More used to sniper terminology). I'd argue that Sabo has pretty crazy AoE burst without all that much setup but you have to be good at rolling in place most of the time. I'd also argue that Sharpshooter bursts just as hard and quick as we do, especially if they precast Flyby and have someone else to armor debuff.

Precast flyby > Speed Shot > All Offensive cooldowns (which are off the GCD) > Trick Shot > Speed Shot > Normal rotation. It's absolutely crazy and they never ever EVER have to waste a GCD on their auto attack.

If we go Grav > Relic/Adrenal (yeah I'm sticking with clicky power) > Demo > CoF buffed Full Auto, and get the Demo and a few ticks of FA to crit then we CAN burst harder there. I won't deny it, it's just so much less reliable. They'll beat us if the Demo doesn't crit, or we don't get that CoF proc. Downsides of playing proc based DPS class.

Regardless, I think we can all agree that a geared and skill gunslinger of any spec should out DPS an equally geared commando. Just the nature of the beast. That being said, our DPS overall is pretty good in the grand scheme of things. Someone has to be on top, and I won't begrudge gunslingers that spot.

Surprisingly lethality operatives are on par with the hybrid/MM sniper kings on parses. The only build that out dps' them all are the engineering sniper which, tbh, is pretty cheap as it is. They are however stupidly difficult to handle and a messed up rotation is a huge dps loss. The other thing is they are melee and this game doesn't like melee D:

Which begs the question: Why bring a lethality operative when you can bring a lethality sniper who can do everything from 35m?

Based only in my humble experience/opinion:

Almost all of my gear is Conqueror stuff (but 3 or 2 pieces I cant remember), reflex augments, all datacrons, stim etc etc and only in one WZ I was out-dpsed by two snipers, first and second place in DPS, I was third place, both of them spamming poison grenades all over the place... throw and hide the whole warzone.

Pro-tip: Use Field Aid to remove the poison effect

Based only in my humble experience/opinion:

 

Almost all of my gear is Conqueror stuff (but 3 or 2 pieces I cant remember), reflex augments, all datacrons, stim etc etc and only in one WZ I was out-dpsed by two snipers, first and second place in DPS, I was third place, both of them spamming poison grenades all over the place... throw and hide the whole warzone.

 

Pro-tip: Use Field Aid to remove the poison effect

If you want to get top damage in a warzone there's nothing like tab-dotting. This does not a great DPS class make especially in PVP.

That being said, Lethality and Hybrid snipers can be pretty sick.

Which begs the question: Why bring a lethality operative when you can bring a lethality sniper who can do everything from 35m?

Mobility. Also, lethality operatives out-dps lethality snipers, it's just that marksman and hybrid do a bit better still and are roughly on-par with lethality operatives. Lethality operatives also bring an entirely different set of raid utilities, which may or may not be valuable depending on your setup.

Mobility. Also, lethality operatives out-dps lethality snipers, it's just that marksman and hybrid do a bit better still and are roughly on-par with lethality operatives. Lethality operatives also bring an entirely different set of raid utilities, which may or may not be valuable depending on your setup.

Question answered! I tend to favor ranged DPS way more personally though. Ranged is a utility all its own, and to be honest there aren't as many fights where mobility is super important. Dash'roode and Kephess the undying are the most obvious of these.

Writhing Horror is a Turret fight. Have to move some for debuff circles, but otherwise not horrible.

Dread Guard DOES require movement, but little movements at a time, and the sniper utility here to covered escape through lightning field and doom is pretty non-trivial.

Operator IX is actually a turret fight. All the movement is basically enforced downtime.

Kephess the Undying is a fight that DOES indeed require a ton of mobility, but when the towers collapse you can stand and deliver as a turret spec.

TFB is a turret fight unless you're kiting spit, but Operatives can't do that, and even kiting spit is basically short movements and then back to turreting.

Dash'roode is truly a high mobility fight, though Entrench is useful utility during the stationary phases and of course Orbital Strike is super useful in this fight. Actually given his size and the multitude of adds, I'd think Engineer/Saboteur is probably the best DPS spec period herre.

Titan 6 requires movement but not during real DPS phases and you can always make sure you're in the right spot to start DPSing again as soon as he lands.

Thrasher on the ground is a pure turret fight. This is where all the turret specs shine actually since from their perspective it's a tank and spank. I think Engineer Snipers rule this fight though.

Ops Chief is a turret fight for ranged.

Oolok is essentially a turret fight. Maybe some small movements to avoid orange circles in phase 1. In phase 2 you can turret the droids and in phase 3 you can plant yourself in the middle of the room and hit anything you need to hit whether that be the adds or oolok himself.

Cartel Warlords is a turret fight. Some enforced movement in phase 1 for Horric's spray and pray. Melee are somewhat of a liability here if you don't DPS sunder last.

Styrak is a turret fight for everything that matters. The only movement is to and from the lightning manifestation adds, and moving him to either the entrance or the throne in anticipation of soft enrage. This fight is also just generally not good for DoT specs and favors bursty specs with little to no ramp up.

Man when you write it all out like that, it's no wonder snipers do so well in so many fights >_<

Question answered! I tend to favor ranged DPS way more personally though. Ranged is a utility all its own, and to be honest there aren't as many fights where mobility is super important. Dash'roode and Kephess the undying are the most obvious of these.

Yeah… I wasn't going to bring that up. :-) Current content design is terrible for melee and generally not problematic in any sense for ranged. Which is…yeah.

Writhing Horror is a Turret fight. Have to move some for debuff circles, but otherwise not horrible.

Also, chasing down the boss after a burrow is really annoying for classes without gap closers (operatives and powertechs).

Dread Guard DOES require movement, but little movements at a time, and the sniper utility here to covered escape through lightning field and doom is pretty non-trivial.

Actually, this is a very high movement fight in Nightmare Mode, due to the higher drop rate on circles, red circles, and the doubled Doom stacks. Ranged are highly penalized. Of course, melee are penalized even worse because they drop circles in a less controlled fashion and can't DPS the boss during Lightning Field. So…that sucks.

Operator IX is actually a turret fight. All the movement is basically enforced downtime.

Yep. Ranged do extremely well on this fight.

Kephess the Undying is a fight that DOES indeed require a ton of mobility, but when the towers collapse you can stand and deliver as a turret spec.

Yeah, this is actually a fight where a melee DoT spec makes all the sense in the world. I think Lethality Op and (gasp) Madness Assassin (ideally played) do quite well on this fight. Certainly better than most ranged DPS.

TFB is a turret fight unless you're kiting spit, but Operatives can't do that, and even kiting spit is basically short movements and then back to turreting.

Even kiting spit, it's pretty turreted. Granted, you have to peel off to kill the adds, but that's not too much of an issue (especially since ranged can skill turret).

Dash'roode is truly a high mobility fight, though Entrench is useful utility during the stationary phases and of course Orbital Strike is super useful in this fight. Actually given his size and the multitude of adds, I'd think Engineer/Saboteur is probably the best DPS spec period herre.

Knockbacks kill sabo (we've tried it). Hybrid actually works unbelievably well, but Lethality Op works even better. On my DF Scoundrel, I can actually treat this nearly like a dummy fight, since the only part of my hard rotation which requires melee range is instant and can be delayed (there is an optional ability which is also instant and imposes some annoying positional penalties on dashroode).

So yeah, I'd say this is probably the best fight in the game for melee relative to ranged specs.

Titan 6 requires movement but not during real DPS phases and you can always make sure you're in the right spot to start DPSing again as soon as he lands.

In fact, ranged have an easier time of this than melee, since melee have to gap close.

Thrasher on the ground is a pure turret fight. This is where all the turret specs shine actually since from their perspective it's a tank and spank. I think Engineer Snipers rule this fight though.

Engineering absolutely destroys all other specs on this fight. There is a fair amount of movement in nightmare mode since positioning w.r.t. the snipers is important, but I think I'd still give the advantage to ranged.

Ops Chief is a turret fight for ranged.

And a stun fest for melee. This fight sucks.

Oolok is essentially a turret fight. Maybe some small movements to avoid orange circles in phase 1. In phase 2 you can turret the droids and in phase 3 you can plant yourself in the middle of the room and hit anything you need to hit whether that be the adds or oolok himself.

Yep. And you don't have to gap close back to the boss when he respawns.

Cartel Warlords is a turret fight. Some enforced movement in phase 1 for Horric's spray and pray. Melee are somewhat of a liability here if you don't DPS sunder last.

Melee are a super liability. They have to deal with a lot of movement killing Sunder and Vilas, which is completely gratuitous. Ranged can essentially ignore both Fixate and Vilas's teleport, which is completely unfair. The only thing that penalizes rDPS on this fight is Spray and Pray, which is trivially avoided via smart positioning and slight movement.

Styrak is a turret fight for everything that matters. The only movement is to and from the lightning manifestation adds, and moving him to either the entrance or the throne in anticipation of soft enrage. This fight is also just generally not good for DoT specs and favors bursty specs with little to no ramp up.

Yeah. DoT specs are completely screwed on this fight. I actually respec Scrapper here for exactly that reason. Melee aren't too highly penalized (Sentinels do extremely well), but ranged aren't penalized at all.

Man when you write it all out like that, it's no wonder snipers do so well in so many fights >_<

Don't remind me… :-)

Yeah… I wasn't going to bring that up. :-) Current content design is terrible for melee and generally not problematic in any sense for ranged. Which is…yeah.

Unfortunately, outside of making a fight with lots of movement for the whole fight which also requires constant proximity to the boss, it's hard to really design a fight which is much better for melee (who can DPS on the move within reason) while also punishing for ranged. Of course, as I type that I realize I just described Dash'roode and Kephis the Undying. As I think back to early content though, it seems to me that most of those fights weren't nearly as punishing, on the whole, for melee, so clearly there's a way to make mechanics that aren't so detrimental to only melee DPS.

Also, chasing down the boss after a burrow is really annoying for classes without gap closers (operatives and powertechs).

Yep. Much like Oolok, ranged can just stand in the middle and pew pew and only worry about moving out of debuff circles (which melee ALSO have to do).

Actually, this is a very high movement fight in Nightmare Mode, due to the higher drop rate on circles, red circles, and the doubled Doom stacks. Ranged are highly penalized. Of course, melee are penalized even worse because they drop circles in a less controlled fashion and can't DPS the boss during Lightning Field. So…that sucks.

I find personally, as a general rule mind you since my guild was forced to reform right as nightmare hit so we're still essentially gearing up over half of our people, that fights where you constantly have to move a little aren't nearly as bad for turret spec ranged DPS as fights where you have periods of very long movement. As a commando especially, it's almost easier for ammo management, and at least it gives you a reason to put sticky grenade on your bars. What sets a fight like KUD or Dash apart is that there is a nontrivial portion of the fight where you're moving for relatively long periods of time which doesn't really give you time to do all that much DPS.

Also, in this particular instance, as you say melee are penalized very heavily in phase 1 since only 1 can realistically DPS during lightning field. Even more problematic in 16 man where I don't think I've ever seen fewer than 4 melee.

Yep. Ranged do extremely well on this fight.

To be fair, no one really does poorly on this fight, though again, ranged is its own utility with the ability to switch to adds quickly in phase 2 and bring them down (as long as you can get them to remember that single targeting the adds is often much more successful than hoping they stay put in a 5m radius AOE, thanks again for that BW). There's also some small risk of losing shields due to people running through melee.

Yeah, this is actually a fight where a melee DoT spec makes all the sense in the world. I think Lethality Op and (gasp) Madness Assassin (ideally played) do quite well on this fight. Certainly better than most ranged DPS.

I'd think madness sorc would still do better than madness assassin (LOLsadness), though they DO channel FL a lot don't they? (My own sorc stays in lightning because I like turret specs and I only play her once in a blue moon anyway). This fight is interesting in that it also rewards high burst which madness notably lacks though. I don't have a scoundrel/operative (yet, I do want scamper eventually), but lethality sniper certainly has some non trivial burst at times, and I'd think the operative version would have at least something approaching that. Burst phases or no though, it's definitely a fight where being able to keep up good DPS as you traverse from North to South and back again helps a lot, and unlike other similar fights you can't really get away with just standing in the middle and turreting.

As mentioned though if there's one fight that would really benefit a good melee DoT spec, this one and Dash'roods are definitely it.

Even kiting spit, it's pretty turreted. Granted, you have to peel off to kill the adds, but that's not too much of an issue (especially since ranged can skill turret).

Yeah ranged are just overall better for this fight. They can kite the spit even in a turret spec, can easily switch from tentacles to adds, or from tentacles to hyper-beacons, all without putting themselves in danger of getting smacked (unlike certain melee who like to peel off and engage adds early on side tentacles and risk getting whacked for their trouble).

Knockbacks kill sabo (we've tried it). Hybrid actually works unbelievably well, but Lethality Op works even better. On my DF Scoundrel, I can actually treat this nearly like a dummy fight, since the only part of my hard rotation which requires melee range is instant and can be delayed (there is an optional ability which is also instant and imposes some annoying positional penalties on dashroode).

 

So yeah, I'd say this is probably the best fight in the game for melee relative to ranged specs.

Hmm interesting. Here my lack of good knowledge for DF Scoundrel comes into play. I'd think knockbacks would prove annoying for everyone. I was thinking sabo because of the hitbox and the number of adds. Not necessarily for ST damage on Dash himself, but the bats can't just be shrugged off by dropping a few Orbitals and Mortar Volleys. I always tell my ranged to ST them down (outside of the above mentioned abilities and maybe pulse cannon since those all hit so hard for the time invested). Still I know you run with good people so I won't doubt your own experience on it. =) I think I tend to worry about the adds more because I feel that they, if nothing else, are what causes wipes on this fight. Dash himself isn't really a DPS check even when stacking lots of turret specs.

That being said, we both agree that this is one of seemingly only two fights which might actually explicitly favor melee over ranged.

In fact, ranged have an easier time of this than melee, since melee have to gap close.

Yep. To be fair parses from ranged probably see a lot of AoE fluff here, but even so, they can always make sure they're in range to DPS as soon as the boss lands and just in general have an easier time. Not only do melee have to worry about gap closing, but they have to pay more attention when you have more than a few since sticking too close together is highly contraindicated by Lots of Missiles and Airstrike.

Engineering absolutely destroys all other specs on this fight. There is a fair amount of movement in nightmare mode since positioning w.r.t. the snipers is important, but I think I'd still give the advantage to ranged.

Agreed. In some ways, especially on difficulties lower than nightmare, this is the closest boss you can get to a dummy parse more or less across the board. At least for people who aren't dealing with adds. No surprise that engineering destroys everyone else for this. If there was more than one fight where the disparity was so very large I'd expect BW really would nerf the heck out of that spec. Or at least move pretty much all it's damage away from the scatter bombs.

And a stun fest for melee. This fight sucks.

At least it's blessedly short

Yep. And you don't have to gap close back to the boss when he respawns.

Not to mention problems during group 6 of phase 1 where the bodyguards seem to do way more damage on flame sweep if you stack melee on them. Ranged DPS is just too good in this fight though being able to quickly switch back and forth between adds and the boss (somewhat harder to do with melee, especially non-knight melee).

Melee are a super liability. They have to deal with a lot of movement killing Sunder and Vilas, which is completely gratuitous. Ranged can essentially ignore both Fixate and Vilas's teleport, which is completely unfair. The only thing that penalizes rDPS on this fight is Spray and Pray, which is trivially avoided via smart positioning and slight movement.

Yep. Fixate especially is super punishing for melee. Movement is one thing, but fixate comes quicker than you can always have taunts for, and is just brutal for melee who lose focus for even a millisecond. For ranged it's a dummy parse where you get all buffs and you occasionally have to target switch.

Yeah. DoT specs are completely screwed on this fight. I actually respec Scrapper here for exactly that reason. Melee aren't too highly penalized (Sentinels do extremely well), but ranged aren't penalized at all.

Exactly right. All the movement happens when there's no Styrak to DPS anyway, and Nightmare actually rewards bringing the ranged classes who have more PVP oriented utility likes roots and slows. On lower difficulties I actually consider this a pretty equitable fight, with the exception of spines where ranged don't really care whereas melee can quickly find themselves eating dirt if they aren't johhny on the spot.

Don't remind me… :-)

Yeah =/ The real problem is that of the fights that punish melee, it is very VERY detrimental to stack melee, whereas even the fights that punish ranged more aren't really noticeably difficult when you stack ranged. A 16 man op with 10 ranged DPS isn't likely to run into super major issues (the one possible exception maybe taking care of thrasher adds from up top?). Stacking melee though is just pretty much always contraindicated one way or the other though.

A DPS Sniper will/should blow a DPS Commando out of the water

lol no they are only a bit higher on the dps parses. top dps classes sniper/slingers, commando/mercs and marua/sents

A good Sniper will do more damage than a good Commando. This is mainly because MM Snipers never have to watch their energy. Ever. Unless they start spamming Suppressive Fire, chances are they never run out of Energy. All of their single target attacks just cost so little compared to Commando/Mercenary skills. They start off at near even damage but as the fight drags on, the Commando's DPS will start dropping due to sustained Ammo management issues. Over the course of a long 10+ minute fight, the Sniper will likely top the Commando with a few hundred more damage, because he never has to go lax to regen resources.

If a Commando messes up his rotation, his DPS and Ammo will drop severely. If a Sniper messes up his rotation, nothing happens. I know that because I play both classes with the same gear (mostly 72 with a few 75 items) and every time I play my Sniper I just feel amazed at how easy and forgiving it is to play MM spec. (Granted the best parses come from hybrid and engineering Snipers with decidely more difficult energy management, but still MM appears to be the most widespread DPS spec for Snipers.)

This is why I hope that Bioware will finally do something about our sustained Ammo management issues.

EDIT: This is on top of the fact that Commandos bring no utility to the team, whereas Snipers have a nice AoE protection buff, have better mobility and better offensive and defensive cooldowns. (Which is not saying much considering Commandos don't have any offensive cooldowns.)

A good Sniper will do more damage than a good Commando. This is mainly because MM Snipers never have to watch their energy. Ever.

 

If a Commando messes up his rotation, his DPS and Ammo will drop severely. If a Sniper messes up his rotation, nothing happens.(Granted the best parses come from hybrid and engineering Snipers with decidely more difficult energy management, but still MM appears to be the most widespread DPS spec for Snipers.)

 

EDIT: This is on top of the fact that Commandos bring no utility to the team, whereas Snipers have a nice AoE protection buff, have better mobility and better offensive and defensive cooldowns. (Which is not saying much considering Commandos don't have any offensive cooldowns.)

Don't think you're playing 36/3/7 on your sniper then, since that spec requires energy management and currently parses higher than DF, hybrid and sab (without the wallbangs). Mess the rotation up, and you'll find yourself casting Flurry of Bolts.

Commandos bring utility, actually.

- Kolto Bomb. Because it might save your raid, even if it's not a HoT in DPS spec.

- Advanced Medical Probe. Gunnery commando's can save any player who's near death if they happen to have 5 Charged Barrels up. It makes that probe an instant cast, thus another heal utility.

- Medical Probe. Slow cast but it's still a heal. Which is, raid utility.

- Battle rez. Snipers don't have this.

- Knockback, stunts takes care of adds and of course, both are needed on Styrak NIM. it's considered utility.

- 1 mezz, you know, to cc a target (non-boss).

And as for offensive abilities

- Tech Override (gunnery). Making 2 abilities instant cast, can even be used in combination with 1 medical probe to provide raid utility.

- Reserve Powercell. Because it makes anything cost no ammo (read: Plasma Grenade or for AP/Hybrids Incendiary Round).

- Recharge Cells. You can deplete your ammo, cast this, throw in a Plasma Grenade, a hammer shot, and you've done some DPS while regaining full ammo.

As for defensive, Commando's only have Reactive Shield. If you're specced into Gunnery, you can get a nice Absorb chance which makes it a bit easier for healers, thus brings a bit utility. Or the Diversion absorb talent, it dumps aggro (tanks will love you) and absorbs some damage.

As for MM Snipers / SS Slingers, they'll have to watch their energy because of:

- Sab Charge. Using this is actually a DPS increase, but it has to be done while having high energy

- XS Flyby. Having low energy and then casting this will make you use either Cool Head or spamming Flurry of Bolts.

- Vital Shot. Eats energy, but having full durations and refreshing it does a lot for DPS.

Only a few (or maybe even 1 player) managed to use the above abilities and never used Flurry of Bolts in their rotation.

I do agree with the fact that Commandos need an ammo regen boost or reduced cost of some abilities. I handle my ammo well now thanks to some guides here on the forum, but there's a large group that doesn't read anything said on this forum, they just head to Noxxic and read up rotations there and end up with a depleted ammo bar and just spamming hammer shot 24/7 till they're able to cast something again.

I also agree with the fact that Snipers have pretty much everything better when it comes to offensive and defensive cooldowns.

But on topic, Snipers/Slingers do the most dps in this game. It isn't odd either, devs play them.

Which begs the question: Why bring a lethality operative when you can bring a lethality sniper who can do everything from 35m?

A lethality operative does more damage. It's a fact lol. They're just squishier, have offheals, and are way more mobile.

Commandos bring utility, actually.

 

- Kolto Bomb. Because it might save your raid, even if it's not a HoT in DPS spec.

- Advanced Medical Probe. Gunnery commando's can save any player who's near death if they happen to have 5 Charged Barrels up. It makes that probe an instant cast, thus another heal utility.

- Medical Probe. Slow cast but it's still a heal. Which is, raid utility.

- Battle rez. Snipers don't have this.

- Knockback, stunts takes care of adds and of course, both are needed on Styrak NIM. it's considered utility.

- 1 mezz, you know, to cc a target (non-boss).

 

And as for offensive abilities

 

- Tech Override (gunnery). Making 2 abilities instant cast, can even be used in combination with 1 medical probe to provide raid utility.

- Reserve Powercell. Because it makes anything cost no ammo (read: Plasma Grenade or for AP/Hybrids Incendiary Round).

- Recharge Cells. You can deplete your ammo, cast this, throw in a Plasma Grenade, a hammer shot, and you've done some DPS while regaining full ammo.

 

As for defensive, Commando's only have Reactive Shield. If you're specced into Gunnery, you can get a nice Absorb chance which makes it a bit easier for healers, thus brings a bit utility. Or the Diversion absorb talent, it dumps aggro (tanks will love you) and absorbs some damage.

Healing and cleansing skills can't really be considered utility. You have healers to heal people. You have healers to cleanse people. You have healers to watch people's health bar and healers to save them and healers to resurrect them, should the need arise.

If you're a DPS, your job is to watch your and your target's frames and your cooldowns and do as much damage as possible. If you stop your DPS to cast heals and save people, you're not doing your job. You're a DPS and that means that you trust the healers to do their job well enough, to keep you and your team alive. You don't expect a Sentinel/Guardian/Gunslinger/Shadow DPS to heal/cleanse/save people. Why would you expect a Commando DPS to do so? (If we could stealth rez people like Assassins and Operatives, I'd agree, we'd have team utility. But not like this.)

As for offensive cooldowns, Recharge Cells shouldn't even be counted because every AC has a major energy regen skill, be that in tank, heal or DPS spec. Vanguards also get Reserve Powercell but they also get Explosive Fuel (or whatever the Rep name is). Reserve Powercell is a utility cooldown. Explosive Fuel is an offensive cooldown. We don't have offensive cooldowns.

A cooldown that boost Accuracy (Target Acquired) boosts damage, so it's offensive. A cooldown that boosts Alacrity (Polarity Shift) is utility because the frequency at which you can channel your skills, so both healers and DPS benefit from it. A cooldown that boosts Crit rating (Explosive Fuel) is offensive because it increases damage. Commandos have neither.

In a full Gunnery tree you can't have both Decoy and Reflexive Shield. Tenacious Defense I would trade for Decoy, but you can't. Besides, in PvE you can't drop your aggro in anticipation of an attack. If you dump it prematurely, you won't be able to use it, when you do take aggro. Better to take one big hit than to die if you take aggro off the tank for some reason. Add to that that Adrenaline Rush is pretty much useless in any situation.

Damage is fine for the most part. Even mobility is okay with Hold the Line. (Granted we're still the slowest class in the game but at least Hold the Line provides immunity from knockbacks.) But Commando sustained energy management, team utility and cooldowns need major attention.

In a full Gunnery tree you can't have both Decoy and Reflexive Shield. Tenacious Defense I would trade for Decoy, but you can't. Besides, in PvE you can't drop your aggro in anticipation of an attack. If you dump it prematurely, you won't be able to use it, when you do take aggro. Better to take one big hit than to die if you take aggro off the tank for some reason. Add to that that Adrenaline Rush is pretty much useless in any situation.

When you say you can't do you mean you have fixations on trivial talents which you won't let go to get both Decoy and Reflexive Shield.

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#800McZrffordokcrsZf.3

You can't if you want to double dip in the alacrity talents (first transponder and the passive talent in assault tree)

Also, quoting Odawgg:

Topping the dps charts is great and all, but if the raid wipes, and you could've help prevent it, what’s the point?

Which points towards any healing ability the commando has. Which is utility, because those abilities can make a difference and do make a difference in any fight if used. Utility is not just a scrambling field. It's anything that can either protect or heal the raid.

Healers can only cleanse one person at a time. Being able to cleanse yourself (and others) IS utility. It takes workload off the healers who can then focus on someone else / the rest of the raid. A good DPS isn't just about putting out numbers GOOD raids rather see people using whatever they have to survive while losing 50dps for a healing ability from a DPS than dying because of what could've been prevented.

A good example of this is on the Writhing Horror HM/NIM. Healers can focus on healing tanks while you can run to a safe spot and cleanse yourself (read: not near flowers)

Recharge cells can be used as an ammo replenisher, but if you're good at maintaining ammo then it can (also) be used as an Offensive cooldown (of sorts). Recharge Cells will allow you to burst DPS like a madman (i.e. spamming grav round till Curtain of Fire pops up). Burst after your opener, throw in a Plasma Grenade, Recharge Cells, Hammer shot, continue your rotation.

You can't if you want to double dip in the alacrity talents (first transponder and the passive talent in assault tree)

There's that can't again.

There, just moved one point.

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#800Mc0zZrffordokcrsZs.3

Don't think you're playing 36/3/7 on your sniper then, since that spec requires energy management and currently parses higher than DF, hybrid and sab (without the wallbangs). Mess the rotation up, and you'll find yourself casting Flurry of Bolts.

 

Commandos bring utility, actually.

 

- Kolto Bomb. Because it might save your raid, even if it's not a HoT in DPS spec.

- Advanced Medical Probe. Gunnery commando's can save any player who's near death if they happen to have 5 Charged Barrels up. It makes that probe an instant cast, thus another heal utility.

- Medical Probe. Slow cast but it's still a heal. Which is, raid utility.

- Battle rez. Snipers don't have this.

- Knockback, stunts takes care of adds and of course, both are needed on Styrak NIM. it's considered utility.

- 1 mezz, you know, to cc a target (non-boss).

 

And as for offensive abilities

 

- Tech Override (gunnery). Making 2 abilities instant cast, can even be used in combination with 1 medical probe to provide raid utility.

- Reserve Powercell. Because it makes anything cost no ammo (read: Plasma Grenade or for AP/Hybrids Incendiary Round).

- Recharge Cells. You can deplete your ammo, cast this, throw in a Plasma Grenade, a hammer shot, and you've done some DPS while regaining full ammo.

 

As for defensive, Commando's only have Reactive Shield. If you're specced into Gunnery, you can get a nice Absorb chance which makes it a bit easier for healers, thus brings a bit utility. Or the Diversion absorb talent, it dumps aggro (tanks will love you) and absorbs some damage.

 

As for MM Snipers / SS Slingers, they'll have to watch their energy because of:

 

- Sab Charge. Using this is actually a DPS increase, but it has to be done while having high energy

- XS Flyby. Having low energy and then casting this will make you use either Cool Head or spamming Flurry of Bolts.

- Vital Shot. Eats energy, but having full durations and refreshing it does a lot for DPS.

 

Only a few (or maybe even 1 player) managed to use the above abilities and never used Flurry of Bolts in their rotation.

 

I do agree with the fact that Commandos need an ammo regen boost or reduced cost of some abilities. I handle my ammo well now thanks to some guides here on the forum, but there's a large group that doesn't read anything said on this forum, they just head to Noxxic and read up rotations there and end up with a depleted ammo bar and just spamming hammer shot 24/7 till they're able to cast something again.

 

I also agree with the fact that Snipers have pretty much everything better when it comes to offensive and defensive cooldowns.

 

But on topic, Snipers/Slingers do the most dps in this game. It isn't odd either, devs play them.

Eh, while 36/3/7 isn't nearly as braindead on energy management as 36/5/5, compared to gunnery commando it's still pretty hilariously easy. It's no coincidence that Flyby and Burst Volley both have 45s cooldowns (Sharpshooter exclusive for that Flyby cooldown obviously). NO ONE is doing good DPS as a commando in an extended setting without using a LOT of Hammer Shots. Sabo Charge is the only real thing that should be messing with your energy, and you can out DPS commandos pretty handily without it.

Mess your rotation up and that's why you have Cool Head/Adrenaline Probe. I don't think it's ever not been up when I needed it, whereas if I'm doing things right on commando I'm eying that cooldown for recharge cells very closely.

Outside of Kolto Bomb, I don't consider any of our heals to be true raid utility. Kolto Bomb costs a GCD, is usable on the move, hits multiple people, love it. My guild ended up commando heavy and you better believe I tell people to throw those out when they can. The other heals? Get MUCH less usage, and I honestly HATE when AMP takes up Charged Barrel stacks. 9 times out of 10, if you're actually making judicious use of any heals other than kolto bomb, sometimes even that, you're gonna wipe anyway.

Battle Rez is meh, I like to have it, but there's lots of battle rezzes around most of the time. Concussion Round IS nice, but mostly for trash packs, though I suppose it's pretty useful if you just wanna focus your DPS on Oolok. Snipers not only have a knockback, but a ranged root, which we don't have, and almost anything you can stun you can flashbang, and from full range instead of 10m.

Tech Override does nothing to increase our damage, and even the argument that it lets us cast on the move isn't very compelling given the cooldown. You're actually gonna try to tell me that MM Sniper isn't leagues ahead of Gunnery commando as a turret spec and cite TO? What are you smoking? Worst offensive cooldown in the game.

Reserve Powercell is nice but the cooldown is WAY too long for the benefit provides.

Honestly do you know what the best raid utility a commando brings? An in rotation spammable armor break. I know I always love seeing a gunnery commando when I'm on my slinger. Shatter Shot is a distraction.

A lethality operative does more damage. It's a fact lol. They're just squishier, have offheals, and are way more mobile.

You're late to the party. See the walls of text at the top of the page detailing all the fights where sniper is better period. Mobility realistically matters in two fights.

When you say you can't do you mean you have fixations on trivial talents which you won't let go to get both Decoy and Reflexive Shield.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#800McZrffordokcrsZf.3

I'd agree with you, but I'll take my 90 second TO and 45 second Concussion Round (just for Oolok, Dash, and Kephess) over my 1 hit resilienced Diversion. It may be a choice between mediocre talents, but one is definitely more mediocre than the other.

When you say you can't do you mean you have fixations on trivial talents which you won't let go to get both Decoy and Reflexive Shield.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#800McZrffordokcrsZf.3

I wouldn't call Overclock trivial. It gives you burst in burn phases, so it does more to increase your DPS than Decoy. But other than that, Cell Capacitor, Field Training, Target Lock and Weapon Calibrations all affect your DPS in some way. The only talent I would ever consider swapping Decoy with is Reflexive Shield, but I wouldn't do that either because the Energy Redoubt effect gives you essentially a passive defensive cooldown.

The problem with Decoy, for me that is, is that it's linked to the aggro dump mechanic. If you anticipate a large incoming Tech or Force attack and use it prematurely, you won't have anything left if you happen to pull aggro afterwards for whatever reason. I like to keep my aggro dump in reserve for times when I actually need it.

If Decoy was a separate skill, kind of like how Dodge works for Smugglers, I would be totally okay with it. But the only situation I would ever consider bringing decoy is PvP, where aggro is not an issue. But even then, I wouldn't give up Overclock and what little burst we have or the reduced cooldown on Reactive Shield.

TL;DR: Decoy is probably a bad design like Frontline Medic. Separate Decoy's effect from Diversion and make it a separate skill with a duration of 3 seconds, which can be increased to 4,5/6 seconds if you put points in the Decoy talent. Then you wouldn't have to worry about prematurely dropping aggro.

You can't if you want to double dip in the alacrity talents (first transponder and the passive talent in assault tree)

Also, quoting Odawgg:

Topping the dps charts is great and all, but if the raid wipes, and you could've help prevent it, what’s the point?

Which points towards any healing ability the commando has. Which is utility, because those abilities can make a difference and do make a difference in any fight if used. Utility is not just a scrambling field. It's anything that can either protect or heal the raid. […]

If it is on you have to save the raid your Tanks and Healers did something wrong. It is not your first job as a Commando DD to help out with healing. Your healers should be able to do that themselves without much support, including the NM encounters. As DD its your job to do damage and Commando or not, you are expected to pull your weight, meaning some 20 percent of total damage.

The thing is: We are doing badly compared to Slingers even when we focus entirely on DPS and use everything we have to maximize damage. And doing anything else on top of that makes the gap even worse! So, how can I use my “great utility” as Commando when I cannot do equal damage on a max dps setting? This just doesn’t add up. If we are supposed to use utilities we need to be able to get the necessary damage in despite of using them. This is impossible, we barely do enough damage compared to Slingers and Sentinels.

Just ask yourself, what do you want? A Commando with 2.5k on Dread Guards or a Slinger with 2.8k? I’d take the Slinger in a heartbeat even if that means that my healers have to heal alone without the help of a Commando doing 2.4k DPS / 100 HPS.

Anyway, healing in a boss fight, especially emergency healing is a great way to screw up not only your rotation but your energy levels. We can throw in the odd Advanced Medical probe and Kolto Bomb if we have to but anything beyond that costs us dearly. Cleansing and stuff, while great, at least costs us one global cooldown. Worse if we have to stop what we are doing, interrupting a cast to cleanse someone.

And recharge cells, if you generally don’t use it as an offensive cooldown you shouldn’t play NM IMO. But as others have said, almost every class has something like this.

There's that can't again.

 

There, just moved one point.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#800Mc0zZrffordokcrsZs.3

Nice. With 2 points for Tech Override gone your dps will be even worse. You want the burst TO can provide.