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Ranked WZ is too hardcore as it is now, something needs to change.


Ashuranrx

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Ranked WZ is one of the most hardcore gameplay in SWTOR, only second to 16-man NM ops, or maybe even on par with it. It requires 8 players to form an ops group to que, just like 8-man ops PvE. But it is vastly more difficult and hardcore than 8 man ops PvE because:

 

1. In PvE, tactics stay the same for most part for each programed boss. In RWZ, Tactics vary in a moment’s notice depending on the opponent’s group composition and tactics.

 

2. In PvE, progression can be seen by how far the group brings the boss’ HP down to. In RWZ, a group may be improving, but can still be not good enough to compete, making progression difficult to measure.

 

3. In PvE, gear progression is gradual and its effect can be measured on performance in each boss fight. In RWZ, if a player is not decked out (Min/Max), then he/she can’t compete. Even then, it is difficult to measure gear progression.

 

4. In PvE, all classes and specs can participate and reach a good effectiveness to make progression. In RWZ, only a few selective “OP” classes and specs participate (bubble stunners, op healers, smashers, pyrotechs … etc.), or else the group can’t compete effectively and it is difficult to measure other classes and specs effectiveness.

 

5. This ties back to the above four. In PvE, progression can be seen and measured. In RWZ, a group may be making progress and still lose badly to a top group, making the experience frustrating and discouraging.

 

 

This is a comparison to show how difficult and hardcore RWZ is in the spectrum of all of SWTOR gameplay contents. On the scale of 1 – 100 with 1 being most casual and easiest and 100 being most hardcore and difficult, RWZ is definitely a 100. Because of this, only a few selected hardcore players have the time, effort, determination, and tenacity to take on the RWZ challenge. I dare to say less than 50 players, out of thousands, on each server would do RWZ consistently, and less than 100 players on each server would do RWZ occasionally. Surely even BW realize this with its metrics, which is why we have been on RWZ pre-season for almost a year and season 1 still has not started.

 

Without going into complicated topics like class balance, which is an entire topic on its own, here is what I am proposing for improve RWZ participation:

 

1. Make WZ and RWZ cross server to increase player pool. Although, BW doesn’t seem to like this idea because it kills the “community.”

 

2. Make RWZ 4-man que only, as oppose to 8-man. Yes, it would suck if a good group is stuck in a game with a bad group. However, this can also happen to the opposing team. What I am betting on is that over time, the good groups will get better ratings and pull ahead of the bad groups, and eventually the good groups will be teamed up and matched against each other base on ratings, and the bad groups will be teamed up and matched against each other base on ratings. Group ratings should be the average of all players’ ratings in the group.

 

 

I believe 2 is the best short term solution. Lowering the group limit from 8 to 4 will make it easier for less hardcore players to form groups to participate, and therefore increases participation in RWZ. In WoW, 2-man arena has more participation than 3-man, which has more than 5-man. Less people requirement makes it easier to participate; 8-man is just too much of a requirement for most players for PvP.

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I'm not sure why bioware thinks the cross-server would kill the community. We can't even talk to the other faction on our own servers. When I kill them in open world or in warzones, I dont even know WHO i killed because I dont bother even looking at their names because it doesn't matter.

 

This game HAS NO COMMUNITY......Im all for cross-server pvp

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this games pvp is based around 8 v 8

 

you cannot lower the number it will make people impossible to kill.

make it puggable and dice it all together

they have made it so there is no reason to play ranked other then to be competive ie trade coms + ewh being a total fix of what 5 main stat - 8 end - 3 sub stat - 2 sub stat per main piece.. hardly nescessary

 

while i agree its ******** that its classist to the degree where only the easist classes to play are generally accepted

i mean nobody can say bubble pyro smash or op heals even requires an ounce of brain power.

 

bioware simply have dug themselves into a deep and frankly, horrible hole with no way out but to decrease the time to kill even further by buffing everyone.

 

most of this is due to everyone being massive whingers about nerfs

 

but by the looks of the expansion leak everyones just going to get completely raped anyway

 

so who gives a whoop about balance the games pvp is rooted the pve is too easy to the point they have to nerf the operations cause to many people are keyboard turners and mouse clickers

 

find ranked too hard? you dont need to do it! problem solved, im sure most of the best teams could roll 8 shadows and still rape 3/4 of the others

ranked is for the hardcore. 4 man premades are for the casuals

Edited by Jumpchan
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I think 10-49 should be normal WZs, and then 50 should be RWZs with the only difference being you can queue an 8 man group up if you wanted, otherwise you could queue solo or queue any number of players and the system would just fill in the rest.

 

10-49 maybe should be everyone solo queues and there is no group queue. There should also be no comm cap at all in this game, and no valor or level requirement to purchase any gear. That way when you do hit 50 you have your gear and just man up and either form a group of your own or start facing groups without a group yourself.

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I'm not sure why bioware thinks the cross-server would kill the community. We can't even talk to the other faction on our own servers. When I kill them in open world or in warzones, I dont even know WHO i killed because I dont bother even looking at their names because it doesn't matter.

 

This game HAS NO COMMUNITY......Im all for cross-server pvp

 

SO FREAKING TRUE!!!! I agree with everything.

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You can't compare pve and pvp progression at all. By definition pvp will always be more dynamic ( this sentence sums up all your points) . If you plan on starting a ranked team you should know and expect to lose a lot until you get the experience and learn strategies ,setups and how to counter these setups.

 

The best thing you can do is queue up do your best and learn from your mistakes. Try to see why did you lose , the reasons can be gear , skill , tactics or team composition . If you can't do that or don't have the time to do it then you shouldn't do RWZ at all or at least expect to win a match. That's how life works, people that are dedicated succeed, people that don't put the effort will most likely fail.

 

Furthermore BW has catered to casual players quite a lot regarding pvp. Giving out incredible easy to play classes ( pyro pt and smashers). They also give out basically free gear , which you can get with little effort compared to how it was before.

 

If you want casual , stick to normal wz and story mode ops.

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I think the problem is just the lack of teams. Its discouraging for new teams when they queue and face the best teams on the server and get rolled, they usually stop queuing all together. They need cross server with an actual matchmaking, I am not sure if they even have one now but if they did it does not work when there are only three teams in the queue you are going to face both of them regardless of your teams ranking.
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1. X-server, hell yes. I remember that "community killer" bit from a while back and still disagree with it. It sounds good, but didn't reflect reality that the communities to be preserved were going extinct anyway. RWZ teams from different servers being able to face off? Sounds like more of a community builder to me than current state.

 

 

2. If # 1 was implemented wouldn't the perceived need for 4-mans be moot?

Edited by Joesixxpack
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I think the problem is just the lack of teams. Its discouraging for new teams when they queue and face the best teams on the server and get rolled, they usually stop queuing all together. They need cross server with an actual matchmaking, I am not sure if they even have one now but if they did it does not work when there are only three teams in the queue you are going to face both of them regardless of your teams ranking.

 

/agree

 

There closing door for any new team, cuz for example on our server we have 6-8 teams which playing together monthes and monthes and simply destroy every new team every time. Its really not fun for good players, which individually quite good, but dont play together as 8-man one team before...

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How would people co-operate via voice chat if there were two four man teams?

 

share a voice comm, it's not that unusual.

 

I agree with the original poster though. They've got to allow 4 man queueing. Right now about 5% of players queue for rated warzones an average of one night a week. The entire system is effectively non-functional. Queues tend to be lengthy (cross server comes in here). I cant even find a pug RWZ team anymore. its just grinding more normals, I'm kinda tired of it.

 

Just create a group finder for it that requires a tank, 2 dps, and a healer and go.

Edited by islander
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the design of ranked is flawed. it (like other aspects of TOR pvp) is extremely limiting.

 

-certain classes are needed to compete

-certain classes are not welcome aka, cannot compete

-requires 8 people

-requires products outside of what TOR offers (vent/teamspeak/etc, yes free but still, limiting)

-same WZs as pug matches, aka not offering new game side content

-need other groups of 8 to be available (or want to queue)

-two teams fighting over a 3rd tower in civil war for 20min doesn't simply mean they are both "good", it means the game mechanic is flawed.

-no guild vs guild mechanic

-no "practice/empty" WZs for new teams that want to start queuing

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What kills RWZ is the community itself, what ever team lost the match either gets slagged off or go on internal slag fests and blame each other.

 

People need to chill the **** out, if a guild want to run an all Merc RWZ team they should be able too, if the community was more friendly you would have more RWZ teams to play against which in turn would even out the playing field.

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1. X-server, hell yes. I remember that "community killer" bit from a while back and still disagree with it. It sounds good, but didn't reflect reality that the communities to be preserved were going extinct anyway. RWZ teams from different servers being able to face off? Sounds like more of a community builder to me than current state.

 

 

2. If # 1 was implemented wouldn't the perceived need for 4-mans be moot?

 

Why do we need X-server? There is only one server per region per server type now. The lag you'd get from a WC US game vs. Europe, not to mention to time zone and language differences, would make it pointless.

 

X-server was needed before the mega-servers. Now we need to preserve what we have and actually improve the quality of PVP, which is the reason people quit PVP to begin with. The roots are on fire, sprinkling water on the leaves now isn't going to save it.

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the design of ranked is flawed. it (like other aspects of TOR pvp) is extremely limiting.

 

-certain classes are needed to compete

-certain classes are not welcome aka, cannot compete

-requires 8 people

-requires products outside of what TOR offers (vent/teamspeak/etc, yes free but still, limiting)

-same WZs as pug matches, aka not offering new game side content

-need other groups of 8 to be available (or want to queue)

-two teams fighting over a 3rd tower in civil war for 20min doesn't simply mean they are both "good", it means the game mechanic is flawed.

-no guild vs guild mechanic

-no "practice/empty" WZs for new teams that want to start queuing

 

They need to have a some sort of custom games so you can practice the 8 man. Well written.

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i find it funny that some folks will say things like RWZ too competetive, but is this not what premades are doing to the regular warzone queue? many of these same people are defending the roflstomping of pugs, so why the complaint here?

 

I still believe that most people want to roflstomp. yes you have a few that will 'want good competetion', but those folks are usually the roflstompers saying that. When most folks get severe competition in rwz, they dont want to 'suck it up and get better teamwork/skills'. They want to be be competitive NOW without the pains of learning/growing. Then these folks run to the regular queue and rampage through pugs to feel better about themselves. Then run to the forum to defend their regular pug queue roflstomping, but then whine that rwz is TOO competitive they dont want to be roflstomped.

 

but this rant aside, i wish Bioware would do the same GuildWars 1 did: allow a taped-delayed copy of the entire WZ, so people can watch different matches a day later or something. People can learn from this, and its a good way to pass the time while waiting for wzs to pop or doing other stuff..

Edited by mulzii
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i find it funny that some folks will say things like RWZ too competetive, but is this not what premades are doing to the regular warzone queue? many of these same people are defending the roflstomping of pugs, so why the complaint here?

 

I still believe that most people want to roflstomp. yes you have a few that will 'want good competetion', but those folks are usually the roflstompers saying that. When most folks get severe competition in rwz, they dont want to 'suck it up and get better teamwork/skills'. They want to be be competitive NOW without the pains of learning/growing. Then these folks run to the regular queue and rampage through pugs to feel better about themselves. Then run to the forum to defend their regular pug queue roflstomping, but then whine that rwz is TOO competitive they dont want to be roflstomped.

 

Here let me give you some haterade! You seem mad bro!

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i find it funny that some folks will say things like RWZ too competetive, but is this not what premades are doing to the regular warzone queue? many of these same people are defending the roflstomping of pugs, so why the complaint here?

 

I still believe that most people want to roflstomp. yes you have a few that will 'want good competetion', but those folks are usually the roflstompers saying that. When most folks get severe competition in rwz, they dont want to 'suck it up and get better teamwork/skills'. They want to be be competitive NOW without the pains of learning/growing. Then these folks run to the regular queue and rampage through pugs to feel better about themselves. Then run to the forum to defend their regular pug queue roflstomping, but then whine that rwz is TOO competitive they dont want to be roflstomped.

 

You are talking like RWZs are common. They are not. There is no "most folks". Unless by "most folks" you mean less than 100 people per server (who actually play in organized teams). The Bastion is a very active pvp server but it hovers under 8 active RWZ teams/guilds.

 

You are also comparing 3-4 people grouping in pugs to RWZs. Which is a poor comparison. So many people will group with 2 people and yet never play in a RWZ. Not because of lack of skill but because RWZ is too limiting (like all TOR pvp but even more so).

 

RWZs are lacking for many reasons as others (and I), have posted.

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i find it funny that some folks will say things like RWZ too competetive, but is this not what premades are doing to the regular warzone queue? many of these same people are defending the roflstomping of pugs, so why the complaint here?

 

I still believe that most people want to roflstomp. yes you have a few that will 'want good competetion', but those folks are usually the roflstompers saying that. When most folks get severe competition in rwz, they dont want to 'suck it up and get better teamwork/skills'. They want to be be competitive NOW without the pains of learning/growing. Then these folks run to the regular queue and rampage through pugs to feel better about themselves. Then run to the forum to defend their regular pug queue roflstomping, but then whine that rwz is TOO competitive they dont want to be roflstomped.

 

Wow. I would love to run ranked all the time, our guild took a hit with no reason when we lost 8 players over the course of 2 weeks. We have not recovered and what ranked I do is always with someone who wants to plant me on a node to defend. There are guilds who run nothing but regs with premades who got their chops licked in ranked which sucks. It is a pain at first trying to get a new team started and most people expect things to go smoothly but that's not the case which leads to as you put it "run to the regular queue and rampage to feel better".

 

As of now there is no real incentive for new teams to start out. They just get blown away by the teams that have been doing ranked for months and quit, never putting in any effort which sucks. I have no issue being beat by a better team but some people obviously don't feel the same way. Adding in dailies and weeklies for ranked could help but then you just go back to people forming pugs just to get them done which is what was going on when you needed ranked comms for WH.

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the design of ranked is flawed. it (like other aspects of TOR pvp) is extremely limiting.

 

-certain classes are needed to compete

-certain classes are not welcome aka, cannot compete

 

Both these you can find being a problem in any MMO with a competitive environment.

 

-requires 8 people

 

Whats wrong with this?

 

-requires products outside of what TOR offers (vent/teamspeak/etc, yes free but still, limiting)

 

Whats wrong with using voice comms? The PvE'ers do it too should we make pve easier (the it already is in this) because of that?

 

-same WZs as pug matches, aka not offering new game side content

 

Whats wrong with that? With regs you can get a basic Idea and strats down for each map.

 

-need other groups of 8 to be available (or want to queue)

 

And? There are plenty of people out there who want to pvp.

 

-two teams fighting over a 3rd tower in civil war for 20min doesn't simply mean they are both "good", it means the game mechanic is flawed.

 

No it doesn't. Just because neither team can be coordinated enough to wipe the other doesn't make it a flawed game mechanic.

 

-no guild vs guild mechanic

 

Sure there is. Each guild can queue for rateds or queue sync. Guild wars would be nice though.

 

-no "practice/empty" WZs for new teams that want to start queuing

 

How do you practice in an empty warzone? Seriously? You can do that in regs.

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How do you practice in an empty warzone? Seriously? You can do that in regs.

 

Ok I'll bite.

 

1. You say that since other MMOs have specific class requirements for end game PvP that it's ok for TOR to have the same. I can't argue against that if you're fine with poor game mechanics.

 

2. You ask what is wrong with requiring 8 people for end game pvp? It's a combination of many things. You need 8 people in a group first off, 2nd each of the 8 have to have the correct class/spec, 3rd each of the 8 need to meet the gear requirements, 4th each of the 8 need to be on at the same time, 5th they require all of those things but on other teams, 6th at least one of those teams has to have 8 others currently online (and queuing). Say 3 teams are queuing, two teams get in a RWZ, the 3rd team has to wait and hope they get chosen for the next match, but they don't know if there will be a next match. Then people log or do other things in game. I could go on but you get the point in why it's limiting in it's design.

 

3. You say what's wrong with voice coms? Personally I don't think there is anything wrong with them. I simply said it's limiting that a video game requires it's players to use other companies software (and no I'm not talking Windows/etc.). They could create an in game voice chat to allow voice communication even in pugs. Take away the hurdles (even the simple ones) and it will increase game play.

 

4. You're saying there is nothing wrong with having no new pvp content for end game. I don't know if I understand your point. I think you're saying that it's fine there is no new content for end game, I'm just not sure why anyone would be ok with that. Having no new content but calling it "end game" is limiting.

 

5. You say there are plenty of people who want to pvp? Duh. Of course there are, where did you see me say otherwise?

 

6. You say two good teams that stalemate in instanced pvp aren't coordinated because one can't "wipe" the other? Are you under the impression that in RWZs one team has to wipe the other to win? I don't believe you think that.

 

7. You say there is a guild vs guild mechanic in RWZs. I know what you are suggesting but, really haha? You are going to stand by your statement that TOR is designed with a guild vs guild mechanic built in?

 

8. You say you can practice your RWZ team in regs. This makes me think you don't even pvp in this game, but I know you do. How do you practice your 8 man team strats in groups of 4? Answer, you can't.

 

I know you're being standoffish and defending TOR, but you can't seriously believe the RWZ system they put in place is adequate for an active pvp base. 6 months of pre-season? Like I said in my previous post, it is limited.

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i find it funny that some folks will say things like RWZ too competetive, but is this not what premades are doing to the regular warzone queue? many of these same people are defending the roflstomping of pugs, so why the complaint here?

 

I still believe that most people want to roflstomp. yes you have a few that will 'want good competetion', but those folks are usually the roflstompers saying that. When most folks get severe competition in rwz, they dont want to 'suck it up and get better teamwork/skills'. They want to be be competitive NOW without the pains of learning/growing. Then these folks run to the regular queue and rampage through pugs to feel better about themselves. Then run to the forum to defend their regular pug queue roflstomping, but then whine that rwz is TOO competitive they dont want to be roflstomped.

 

but this rant aside, i wish Bioware would do the same GuildWars 1 did: allow a taped-delayed copy of the entire WZ, so people can watch different matches a day later or something. People can learn from this, and its a good way to pass the time while waiting for wzs to pop or doing other stuff..

 

 

I am not saying that it is too competitive. I am saying that it is too hardcore, as in too effort and time consuming for most players to participate.

 

For example, there is a Sharpshooter gunslinger player in my guild who is very good in PvP. He could top even the most bad-*** Pyrotechs and Marauders on the server in damage and kills in regular warzone, and keep these OP people in check. He PvPs everyday at least for an hour a day since the game was released. However, he only did like 6 RWZ since it was introduced, because on weekdays, he spends 9 hours working, 3 hours commuting, 8 hours sleeping, and 2 hours with family. Then he only got 2 hours of the day left, which he plays SWTOR for at least 1 hour. He plays more on the weekend, but the RWZ times on my server are Monday and Wednesday nights (coordinated by players of the server), so he is pretty much barred from consistent RWZ participation. However, he joins other guild members in a 4-man premade a lot for regular WZ, because it is so much easier to do. All he needs to do is a shout-out for PvP on guild chat, and a premade is created in seconds and they start queuing.

 

I am sure that there are a lot of players out there with a schedule of daily life like him, and that they would like to play more but just can’t because of real life responsibilities. Afterall, this is a game. My point is that limiting WZ to 8-man que only severely limits its availability to most players, and that in turn, kills RWZ participation and activity. By opening RWZ to 4-man group ques too, will allow more players to participate in RWZ because it is much easier to make a 4-man group and que than to make a 8-man ops and que. This will increase RWZ participation and activity all the time around.

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Two things that can (and I'm hoping will in season 1) fix rwz is:

1. cross-server queues, why this is an issue is beyond me. The pvp "community" in the bw ideal sense of the word died after 1.2 when a lot of pvp'ers left in disgust.

 

2. implement the match-making system where rating actually means something.

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Two things that can (and I'm hoping will in season 1) fix rwz is:

1. cross-server queues, why this is an issue is beyond me. The pvp "community" in the bw ideal sense of the word died after 1.2 when a lot of pvp'ers left in disgust.

 

2. implement the match-making system where rating actually means something.

 

All the PVP elites on PVE servers would be ROFLSTOMPED if they went against PVPers of a PVP server.

 

:D

 

They'd complain and want the old system back.

 

:rak_03:

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