I know I know one more thread about that but this time with all the changes scheduled, it should be tested at least on pts.

 

Make Tank disciplines useful in pvp. One big step for that is "You want to guard, you have to be in Tank discipline."

The 6 Dps specs who can guard adds a lot of complexity to teamfights. It can be a huge risk that can cost you, but if done properly you can save teammates with it. With 6.0 a lot of things will be changing which will be extremely refreshing. Removing the guard option from dps specs should not be one of them. The game is team oriented and the more they remove from that aspect and focus on individuals, the less interesting pvp will get, atleast to me.

I know I know one more thread about that but this time with all the changes scheduled, it should be tested at least on pts.

 

Make Tank disciplines useful in pvp. One big step for that is "You want to guard, you have to be in Tank discipline."

 

Tank disciplines are extremely strong, especially with dps gear because they get the extra dcd from being in the tank spec. This is the part that people have issues with since they become essential another dps spec with more dcds. If you want to encourage more tanks with tank stats and gear, then they just need to increase the passive damageout penalty by a little bit. They can still go dps gear if they want, but their dps output will be less than actual dps classes.

Skanks were already nerfed once, and as such they are no longer top of the tree in 1v1. What they do really well is guard in WZ, because they can take a lot of aggro, and have enough damage to kill attackers when paired with a healer. Nerf them again, and they won't be able to do this. But if DPs coordinate well, they can still be taken down. I would say the Skank tank balance is just right. In regs I regularly hold off half the enemy team with just a healer, but in ranked a pair of really good DPS is enough to kill either me or my healer once they have forced my DCDs.

 

As for dropping guard from DPS classes, those classes are off-tanks anyway. They are meant to do what tanks can do, albeit not for as long. Dropping guard from these classes just makes them another DPS class. Although termed DPS classes, these classes are not DPS. They are Off tanks / DWT.

Guard need to be tank spec or gone. Any class that's an off tank will have a taunt don't need a guard as well...

i seen how guard on dps players has literally single handled made solo ranked cancer.

 

i am all for the devs either removing guard all together from dps players, reducing the the damage transfer by half or something like redesigning it so it has more draw back such as reducing your outgoing damage when activated for dps.

 

with how powerful a 50% damage transfer is, with literally to no draw back, it should be redesigned to be more of a tanked focused ability and separate from dps specs. i think changes like these not only makes the game more playable in places in solo ranked/regs but it also makes tanks stand on their own as a defensive class which would be interesting.

i seen how guard on dps players has literally single handled made solo ranked cancer.

 

i am all for the devs either removing guard all together from dps players, reducing the the damage transfer by half or something like redesigning it so it has more draw back such as reducing your outgoing damage when activated for dps.

 

with how powerful a 50% damage transfer is, with literally to no draw back, it should be redesigned to be more of a tanked focused ability and separate from dps specs. i think changes like these not only makes the game more playable in places in solo ranked/regs but it also makes tanks stand on their own as a defensive class which would be interesting.

 

I don't think it has single-handedly made solo ranked cancer. It's not really a factor in the majority of games. But still, I agree that it should be changed. One dps offguarding can be overcome, though it can be challenging. It's stupidly easy to use, and even more effective, in healer games. And the games with multiple sins that will offguard teammates and each other are essentially unwinnable. I'd be okay with offhealing being nerfed as well, even though it's not nearly as effective as offguarding.

Edited July 8, 2019 by JediMasterAlex

The 6 Dps specs who can guard adds a lot of complexity to teamfights. It can be a huge risk that can cost you, but if done properly you can save teammates with it. With 6.0 a lot of things will be changing which will be extremely refreshing. Removing the guard option from dps specs should not be one of them. The game is team oriented and the more they remove from that aspect and focus on individuals, the less interesting pvp will get, atleast to me.

 

NO it should be removed. With new changes dps juggs will have great buff to survivability. If they will be able to save team mates from death while also not dying from their own guard thanks to double ED grit teeth item, this will be too opped for a dps class you know. IT ruins most of fights and gives this class unfair advantage.

Edited July 8, 2019 by omaan

I made a post about this a year ago I think, maybe longer.

 

Essentially, in my opinion, guard is too strong for the majority of the player base to handle. With one GCD, you can make or break a game. Thus, my proposal is to:

 

- Remove guard from DPS classes.

- Reduce guard to 10% base damage transfer.

- Increase guard to 50% (or maybe 60%) based on actual tanking stats equipped.

- Potentially buff taunt based on tank gear equipped as an aside.

 

This should allow tanks who want to be tanks to reap the reward of their gear for helping players. Instead of simply allowing tanks to put on all DPS gear and have full benefit of their protection for other players.

I made a post about this a year ago I think, maybe longer.

 

Essentially, in my opinion, guard is too strong for the majority of the player base to handle. With one GCD, you can make or break a game. Thus, my proposal is to:

 

- Remove guard from DPS classes.

- Reduce guard to 10% base damage transfer.

- Increase guard to 50% (or maybe 60%) based on actual tanking stats equipped.

- Potentially buff taunt based on tank gear equipped as an aside.

 

This should allow tanks who want to be tanks to reap the reward of their gear for helping players. Instead of simply allowing tanks to put on all DPS gear and have full benefit of their protection for other players.

 

2/3 of that is beside the point of the thread, which is simply about dps specs guarding. I would remind people that a tank spec running dps gear is not in fact a dps

2/3 of that is beside the point of the thread, which is simply about dps specs guarding. I would remind people that a tank spec running dps gear is not in fact a dps

 

A dps geared Tank is:

 

- The only way to play PvP currently since tank gear isn't useful. This is a problem in my opinion.

- Does enough damage that they can actually kill and otherwise cause significant pressure. Perhaps not as much as a true DPS, but still significant. This is fine as it is a reward for gearing as a DPS, but gives up little in order to pump out more damage.

 

As for DPS with guard, yes. This can be problematic for the DPS of course, but in most scenarios (in my mind), the pros outweigh the cons. Huge protection for the healer, many times causing focus to move away from the healer and allowing the healer to free cast. Sure, with enough focus the DPS itself or the healer can still die. But it causes a gameplay change and a strategy adjustment on the opposing team in order to deal with this.

 

For example, if I'm killing the healer, using my CC's appropriately, giving the healer a hard time in general, once guard goes on the healer, it's like a lifesaver for the healer and I must now depend on PUGS to assist me on whether I choose to continue the pressure on the healer, or go after the DPS that guarded the healer (which is also not clearly visible).

 

I agree with DPS retaining taunt, but not guard for these reasons, and on top of that, the tank player should be rewarded for wearing tank gear. That reward would be the means to protect other players in such a way to justify the strategy adjustments it invites.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Kannuki

snip

 

I said nothing about my opinion on either matter.

I simply said that this thread is not about tank gearing; but dps guarding, which are two different subjects, unless one is implying that:

 

Dps specs of tank capable classes are as tanky as tank specs AND

Tanks have the dps throughput of a dps

The 6 Dps specs who can guard adds a lot of complexity to teamfights. It can be a huge risk that can cost you, but if done properly you can save teammates with it. With 6.0 a lot of things will be changing which will be extremely refreshing. Removing the guard option from dps specs should not be one of them. The game is team oriented and the more they remove from that aspect and focus on individuals, the less interesting pvp will get, atleast to me.

 

Yes yes.. I get it, you say the same boring stuff over and over again and care about your selfish interests only.

 

It's obvious you play some kind DPS spec which uses guard and you come here trying to convince others how complex fights are when One team has dps with guards and the other one has none... "yawn"

 

You know adding guard to DPS was a bad move, everyone knows it. Guarding is the tank's business and should be the tank's only. DPS were fine with their taunts. But I know you are some kind of accomplished meme PVP god and you're going to reply with some deep PVP philosophy . so please don't even bother to reply to this post. I've already gotten the picture from your debate with Alex.

 

peace

I don't think it has single-handedly made solo ranked cancer.

 

players really do not understand the significance of 50% damage reduction is in a game. that is the difference between someone dying in a double hardstun or not, or you unloading all your burst into a target who is 50% just to survive it all.

 

play and watch hundreds of solo ranked games by decent players. giving dps easy accessibility to guard is actually one of the main factors one team loses or wins in above average to high level games (even more so if healers are in play). it arguably can be even a bigger factor than who is playing on each side and the classes are. when it comes to even matches if you have 2 off guards and the other team has 1, it is the main factor why you will be winning. this is the reason why majority of ranked players complain about dps off guarding.

 

dps having easy accessibility to the guard mechanic, with little to counterbalance it's strength, should be addressed.

 

 

 

on a side note/tangent i think it's also worth addressing a lot of these issues also come from lack of population in solo ranked. if the population was more healthy we could have class balancing as well as elo balancing between each team. this would allow each team to have the same number of off healers or off guards which would create more far matches and this discussion would be irrelevant.

But it causes a gameplay change and a strategy adjustment on the opposing team in order to deal with this.

 

I'm proud that you realize this, now take step two and figure out the way to beat it. Most people just don't seem to want to do the thinking for themselves.

 

Everyone agrees that 50% damage transfer is very strong. But when a dps guards someone, it creates a huge weakness which no one seems to want to talk about. I'll let someone else actually think and hopefully point it out.

Yes yes.. I get it, you say the same boring stuff over and over again and care about your selfish interests only.

 

Kinda ironic, since it is you guys that want to make the game more boring for everyone by removing it

 

I'm all for complexity in pvp and will always advocate for it. Chess > Checkers

NO it should be removed. With new changes dps juggs will have great buff to survivability. If they will be able to save team mates from death while also not dying from their own guard thanks to double ED grit teeth item, this will be too opped for a dps class you know. IT ruins most of fights and gives this class unfair advantage.

With all the changes comming in 6.0, i want to see how it goes and make adjustments after (and quicker) if necessary.

players really do not understand the significance of 50% damage reduction is in a game. that is the difference between someone dying in a double hardstun or not, or you unloading all your burst into a target who is 50% just to survive it all.

 

play and watch hundreds of solo ranked games by decent players. giving dps easy accessibility to guard is actually one of the main factors one team loses or wins in above average to high level games (even more so if healers are in play).

 

I guarantee you that I play more solo ranked than anyone you talk to about pvp. And I probably maintain a higher rating than the vast majority of them as well. I know much better than you what happens in solo ranked matches. (Note that I'm not claiming to be an amazing player, but I've played hundreds and hundreds of solo ranked matches at a high rating this season alone). Guard by dps is indeed very strong, but it doesn't happen in the majority of games. That is a fact. It certainly can be a huge factor if it is being used.

 

it arguably can be even a bigger factor than who is playing on each side and the classes are. when it comes to even matches if you have 2 off guards and the other team has 1, it is the main factor why you will be winning. this is the reason why majority of ranked players complain about dps off guarding.

 

dps having easy accessibility to the guard mechanic, with little to counterbalance it's strength, should be addressed.

 

This is all what I said in my post put into different words...

 

I'm proud that you realize this, now take step two and figure out the way to beat it. Most people just don't seem to want to do the thinking for themselves.

 

Everyone agrees that 50% damage transfer is very strong. But when a dps guards someone, it creates a huge weakness which no one seems to want to talk about. I'll let someone else actually think and hopefully point it out.

 

Just because it can be beaten does not mean that it isn't too powerful and shouldn't be changed. That seems to be a hard concept for you to grasp.

 

Kinda ironic, since it is you guys that want to make the game more boring for everyone by removing it

 

I'm all for complexity in pvp and will always advocate for it. Chess > Checkers

 

I love how Zurules thinks that putting guard on someone is some kind of strategic wizardry, and not a relatively easy tactic to use with disproportionate effectiveness.

Edited July 8, 2019 by JediMasterAlex

i seen how guard on dps players has literally single handled made solo ranked cancer.

 

yep. this has been the case since arenas were introduced. the matchmaker does not and (apparently) is not capable of taking gimp guarding into consideration. it's always been game-breaking, particularly in healer + 3 dps matches in which one team has at least one dps capable (let alone willing) to off guard, and the other team does not.

 

this effectively ruins the role balancing mechanism of solo ranked. it was the same issue with hybrid sages back in the day. they obviously weren't as effective as a fully spec'd healer, but in matches absent dedicated healers, they were cancer (which was most pops).

 

I must say that most of the pops I've had this season have at least one support role. that's a relief. the 4v4 dps matches are just foreign to the basic conceit of the game and the root cause of all of the class balance issues.

If a team only has 1 dps that can guard and you are having trouble dealing with it, then it is 100% a l2p issue.

 

Having 2 off guards swapping between each other is slower to kill someone, but it is also harder to execute.

 

Dont forget, all the off tanks specs are squishy and dont have many dcds, only jugg/guardians can off guard slightly better imo because they have 2 lives without resetting.

Dont forget, all the off tanks specs are squishy and dont have many dcds, only jugg/guardians can off guard slightly better imo because they have 2 lives without resetting.

 

Shows again how out of touch you are with solo ranked. Dps juggs virtually never offguard. I've only seen a literal handful do it in hundreds of matches, and that was only when two good dps juggs were swapping guard on each other. Juggs nearly always get focused first, so they never have a chance to guard.

 

Sins are the only class that make use of offguard on a semi-regular basis. You should know, because it was the only reason you were good at solos.

Edited July 9, 2019 by JediMasterAlex

Shows again how out of touch you are with solo ranked. Dps juggs virtually never offguard. I've only seen a literal handful do it in hundreds of matches, and that was only when two good dps juggs were swapping guard on each other. Juggs nearly always get focused first, so they never have a chance to guard.

 

Sins are the only class that make use of offguard on a semi-regular basis. You should know, because it was the only reason you were good at solos.

 

Hate to point out the obvious, but the reason they are focused first is because they are the best at off-guard with no escape (other than pt/vg). If a good jugg is not focused and he does not off-guard, then hate to say it but in like 98% of those cases it would be a mistake on the jugg's part.

 

You only think about the results, not how you get those results. That is why you will always be an average pvper. You play more than anyone as you said, yet you seem to be unable to ever improve and play at the highest lvl in regards to pvp.

 

If the only reason i got top 5 in solo ranked in each of the 4 seasons i made that my goal as a dps shadow was by off-guarding, Why were most of the others not able to do the same? I mean, it was super easy to do right?

now now, can we not derail something else with another petty brawl between you two...

now now, can we not derail something else with another petty brawl between you two...

 

I'm sorry, but im in the mood to defend higher quality pvp for this game. If people want to listen to someone who has no experience in the highest lvl of pvp in this game at any point in its history, that will be their choice. Anything that he or anyone else says that i consider bad advice, i'll continue to point it out and explain why.

 

Everyone, has a right to their opinion. Him, me, everyone.

 

The quality of pvp for a long time has been quite simply horrific. You can't even get a high quality game in ranked anymore, and that is the queue for people who are supposed to know what they are doing. Hell, just today i had 3 good quality reg games out of like 8 games, who would of figured that.

snip.

 

yeah because the last thread you guys derailed with literal pages of petty arguing was full of wonderful advice and quality information...

 

and again, i'm witholding my personal opinion on the matter, despite the fact I have a very strong one, because:

A. no one cares

B. it doesn't matter what I say, I realize I make no difference in what anyone here believes

C. it's better for everyone to let bygones be bygones