I would suggest to open your mind towards all the new things that Star Wars under Disney has brought. Now, I love this game and the Legends in general. But, I also love the Canon for all the new things they've brougth to this universe. Star Wars isn't just about politics or gender as you seem to see it being. It is stories of various kinds of persons trying to make their living and adventures in a galaxy far, far away.

People's anger about the politicization of Star Wars is hardly "closed minded." Keep in mind, people were generally quite happy with Rogue One, with its female lead character (not counting the usual small group of crazies that should be ignored). Thing is, Jyn wasn't presented as a token female lead, she was a story appropriate lead. Dynamic, strong, complex, who just so happened to be female.

Now in the new trilogy, TLJ in particular, is absolutely loaded with token characters. As soon as a character is designed to be a representative, and not to be a dynamic, believable, interesting character; it shows. And it stinks.

People's anger about the politicization of Star Wars is hardly "closed minded." Keep in mind, people were generally quite happy with Rogue One, with its female lead character (not counting the usual small group of crazies that should be ignored). Thing is, Jyn wasn't presented as a token female lead, she was a story appropriate lead. Dynamic, strong, complex, who just so happened to be female.

 

Now in the new trilogy, TLJ in particular, is absolutely loaded with token characters. As soon as a character is designed to be a representative, and not to be a dynamic, believable, interesting character; it shows. And it stinks.

Forgive me if I came off as offensive earlier. I'm probably sounding silly when I say this but I had look up at the term "token character", and I can see what you mean. This is just my opinion though, but I think that Rose or any other new characters that were introduced are dynamic and believable in their own ways.

I admit, I probably sound very naivé when I say that, but for me these films and the franchise in general has been a huge enjoyment ever-since I've been a young child, and these new films and things feel as much as Star Wars as the old things.

What I'm trying to say is that I really don't understand all the hassle surrounding the new characters when compared to old ones.

Forgive me if I came off as offensive earlier. I'm probably sounding silly when I say this but I had look up at the term "token character", and I can see what you mean. This is just my opinion though, but I think that Rose or any other new characters that were introduced are dynamic and believable in their own ways.

I admit, I probably sound very naivé when I say that, but for me these films and the franchise in general has been a huge enjoyment ever-since I've been a young child, and these new films and things feel as much as Star Wars as the old things.

What I'm trying to say is that I really don't understand all the hassle surrounding the new characters when compared to old ones.

Some of the hassle is unfounded yes, which generally comes from a kneejerk reaction to the modern politicization of race, gender, etc. issues. This will vary from location to location (ex. here in Canada, gender is the hot button issue, especially in the last few weeks. In the US, race tends to be the hot button issue etc.) and as such different people are going to have different sensitivities to different issues. In short, mileage will vary, and in more extreme cases people will become oversensitive to an issue and then they start seeing grand progressive conspiracies in everything around them. If that's all they are expecting to find, then that's all they are going to find.

These are the group I'm generally referring to by the "crazies" and generally should be ignored.

Once we filter them out, this leaves us with another group of people who have been frustrated by the politics and Hollywood playing off those political fads (for lack of a better word). When this group sees this, especially in well established nostalgia IPs like Star Wars, they are going to have strong reactions, and Disney should pay attention to this and take a real hard look at their agenda for these stories, because "Making an inclusive, progressive, politically sensitive story" is a little too much of a priority.

Couple examples: I think the prime culprits in the new trilogy are the handling of Finn and Rose. (Rey has some issues too but for the most part she was handled Ok. Could have been better and more internally consistent in terms of her powers, but not that egregious).

With Finn, we are first introduced to this morally conflicted stormtrooper and so far all is well, the obvious question of "Why?" is present but we trust they'll get to it. Really TFA left us with a lot of questions about Finn's character, most of which boil down to "Why?" (I don't consider 'because it's the right thing to do" a satisfying motivation on it's own) and even just "Who is this guy?" This was a bit concerning considering he is in the Main Character Triumvirate (as I like to call it), but then again, it's still only the first movie, they still got lots of time.

Then came TLJ. And... well, what did he do? what did we really learn about him? why was he even there? He grew up a bit, so to speak, but still, what was memorable about him? If we want to compare characters based on race alone, compared to Lando, he just seems totally without character. As soon as we meet Lando we get the history between him and Han, we get this suave businessman who doesn't seem quite trustworthy (of course, we find out for good reason not long after). In all this, we see he is still good hearted behind his many veneers. He has character, and really, he is only a supporting character. Finn? Finn just seems lost. Not a bad state to spend some time in, but 1.9 movies? C'mon, they can do better than that.

Now for Rose. This is a character that I found really fell flat. I went through the entire movie asking "Who is she?" "Why is she here?" "What are her deeper motives, besides taking pleasure in tazing people?" What little explanation we may have gotten along those lines I've totally forgotten. This is not a character i can see threatening a Hutt with a thermal detonator as a ploy, or plowing a nexu while chained to a pole. Rose could have been interesting, but she just wasn't really given anything to work with. Just leave her out and pair Finn off with Poe. We have this anxious, conflicted individual who struggles to believe in things and a brash hot head who believes a little too much. That could have lead to some very interesting development.

Disney has shown they can write good stories (ex. Rogue One, Rebels) but the ST just feels like it's stretching itself way too far just to be able to check boxes on a list of moral issues.

Ok, didn't really plan on that becoming an essay but oh well, maybe someone will find it informative.

Disney does not care at all about Star Wars or the fans. Disney only care about one thing, and that is money. They are just making meaningless movies that only kids and the average person would watch. I don't see how a true Star Wars fan can like any of the new cannon, just my personal opinion.

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Yes, the new films take influence from our age and politics, just as the Originals and Prequels did when they came out.

This is very true... the primary difference is the originals made good stories and developed good characters, then worked subtle politics into it. TLJ went the opposite beating you in the face with politics and has stories that feel like an afterthought tacked on that doesn't make any sense and character development that is devoid of any substance.

...so they included aspects of socila politics, race, gender etc etc but they did so for the sole sake of refelcting Our time and age rather than using said elements to further the story.

I find most stories written in fantasy worlds by authors often reflect signs of the time during that authors life or reflects other periods of time that include social, political, gender and/or racial situations. These topics naturally stir passion in people, so are often common themes.

Movies can have dumb or unimaginative plots without attaching a political meme to the reasoning behind why we dislike a movie.

I just think people seem to be obsessed with SJW hysteria and far too often use it to explain anything and everything bad about a movie. It's sad that we as people seem to have to compartmentalize everything using a political prism to view life through.

I just think people seem to be obsessed with SJW hysteria and far too often use it to explain anything and everything bad about a movie. It's sad that we as people seem to have to compartmentalize everything using a political prism to view life through.

I was trying to think of a way to phrase that, but you hit it.

I find most stories written in fantasy worlds by authors often reflect signs of the time during that authors life or reflects other periods of time that include social, political, gender and/or racial situations. These topics naturally stir passion in people, so are often common themes.

 

Movies can have dumb or unimaginative plots without attaching a political meme to the reasoning behind why we dislike a movie.

 

I just think people seem to be obsessed with SJW hysteria and far too often use it to explain anything and everything bad about a movie. It's sad that we as people seem to have to compartmentalize everything using a political prism to view life through.

Couldn't agree more.

The Old Republic's story is still pretty bad. The class stories are awesome, but the overall plot is just terrible. I'd kill to have Chris Avellone's version of the story after the incredible work he did with KOTOR 2.

Such wasted potential.

The Old Republic's story is still pretty bad. The class stories are awesome, but the overall plot is just terrible. I'd kill to have Chris Avellone's version of the story after the incredible work he did with KOTOR 2.

 

Such wasted potential.

Agree to disagree, the overall story is pretty damn good.

Agree to disagree, the overall story is pretty damn good.

I still think it's horrid, but it's better than that spit in the face that was The Force Awakens, along with its sequel.

Thanks for making the OT pointless Abrams, you populist scum.

Seems like Disney agrees so the GoT creators are said to be doing Old Republic era movies. Dare we hope for a Revan trilogy?

The Old Republic's story is still pretty bad. The class stories are awesome, but the overall plot is just terrible. I'd kill to have Chris Avellone's version of the story after the incredible work he did with KOTOR 2.

 

Such wasted potential.

Personally I don't get the plaudits KOTOR 2 has in some circles... After KOTOR dreamed up an era of unlimited potential... the sequel rebooted the new unvierse into the OT "last of the jedi" rehash. I mean it had quality writing and plot, but if you're talking wasted potential, KOTOR 2 should have its photo next to the dictionary definition. TOR had to jump centuries again to re-established the scenery KOTOR 2 mucked over for no reason other than lack of originality.

One can't deny Obsidian doesn't do quality work but they've seemed badly short of imagination from the get go. Even the latest project is basically just a deja-vu fiesta. It'll be better made than Fallout no doubt but come on... it's another Obsidian re-do of the already seen.

Seems like Disney agrees so the GoT creators are said to be doing Old Republic era movies. Dare we hope for a Revan trilogy?

I'd rather they didn't to be honest. I have 0 faith in Disney being able to give it the love it deserves.

Have it set in that time line, with new characters and occasional references to the fan favourites though would be just the thing I think.

Seems like Disney agrees so the GoT creators are said to be doing Old Republic era movies. Dare we hope for a Revan trilogy?

 

 

 

Personally I don't get the plaudits KOTOR 2 has in some circles... After KOTOR dreamed up an era of unlimited potential... the sequel rebooted the new unvierse into the OT "last of the jedi" rehash. I mean it had quality writing and plot, but if you're talking wasted potential, KOTOR 2 should have its photo next to the dictionary definition. TOR had to jump centuries again to re-established the scenery KOTOR 2 mucked over for no reason other than lack of originality.

 

One can't deny Obsidian doesn't do quality work but they've seemed badly short of imagination from the get go. Even the latest project is basically just a deja-vu fiesta. It'll be better made than Fallout no doubt but come on... it's another Obsidian re-do of the already seen.

I think Revan trilogy is possible. But I hope they go back and adapt Tales of the Jedi OR do something in the Republic Dark Age.

I agree about not getting the KOTOR 2 love, and it being an OT ripe off.

As to why SWTOR is better than dis?

It's more fun, better characters and more engaging story. Familiar with out being derivative.

I agree about not getting the KOTOR 2 love, and it being an OT ripe off.

.

An OT ripoff? Why, because the Jedi are nearly gone? Because a planet falls apart at the end? That happens a bit in the lore honestly, though I feel KOTOR 2 happened to do it the most uniquely.

The clearest OT ripoff in the KOTOR games is KOTOR 1. It basically hits all the beats, including the great revelation that blows the main character's mind, a tall imposing Sith with a breathing problem, etc.

If you don't get the KOTOR 2 love, you'll want to see this:

KOTOR 2 is incredibly deep, and what the Revan novel and SWTOR did to it, and KOTOR 1's story by correlation, is absolutely horrid to me.

KOTOR 2 is incredibly deep, and what the Revan novel and SWTOR did to it, and KOTOR 1's story by correlation, is absolutely horrid to me.

Other than turning the Exile into a Revan fangirl / sidekick (which bugged the heck out of me, even though I really do like the Revan character overall), what did the Revan novel and SWTOR do that you felt was so horrid with respect to KotOR II?

Other than turning the Exile into a Revan fangirl / sidekick (which bugged the heck out of me, even though I really do like the Revan character overall), what did the Revan novel and SWTOR do that you felt was so horrid with respect to KotOR II?

Prepare yourself for a wall of text.

So KOTOR 2 was all about philosophy, and a war of belief. For example: Nihilus and Sion were representations of the Sith beliefs taken to nth degree. They were the most powerful (up to that time) in their specialties, and yet this was also their weakness. They literally can't live without relying on the Force. Normal beings don't feel the Force like they do and therefore function like we do. It was a great way to show the flaws of their beliefs. That is great storytelling. We don't get any of that. We just get a story that hits the same beats as stuff before. There's a whole video on why Kreia and KOTOR 2's story is deep and insightful:

KOTOR 2 and Kreia got me into philosophy and opened me up to new worlds. I regret not studying philosophy more at college.

On the topic of Kreia, she talks about this big bad war coming, but the war she's talking about just happens in the opening cutscenes. Cutscenes that were beautiful by the way, but had fighting so nonsensically flashy that it makes the Prequel lightsaber fights look like they were conducted by HEMA experts.

Revan was treated terribly, and I say this as someone that has never really been a big Revan fan. KOTOR 2 made him out to be a master strategist. Working behind the scenes as well as in front. Pulling the strings. At Malachor V, the grand majority that died were those that weren't Revan's biggest supporters. He did this on purpose because those left over would join him to come back after the Mandalorian Wars, the same foes we fight in KOTOR 1. The reason for this is because he saw evidence of the True Sith hiding in the Unknown Regions (not Sith space right next to Korriban. Looking at you Dromund Kaas.) and knew that philosophically, the Republic and the Jedi especially were not ready to fight such a foe. That's the kind of Revan we're talking about. He never "fell," he chose to become Sith. In the Revan novel and SWTOR, none of that happened. He wasn't brilliant, he stumbled onto Vitiate's Empire and got mind dominated like a pansy. In the Revan novel they say he uses both Dark Side and Light Side at the same time. Which is impossible because using light sided powers requires centering oneself and being at peace, whereas Dark Side powers require strong emotion. It's what they call a contradiction.

Speaking of Vitiate, what a disappointment and an awful character. The way KOTOR 2 built up the True Sith, they were supposed to be unique, almost Lovecraftian. Never before have I seen such a terrible backstory for a villain. He's borderline Rey levels of Mary Sue. This villain is so bad I cringe every time I think about him.

"Tenebrae's eyes were said to be as black as the void of space, and even as an infant he showed no emotion, nor did he ever cry. Animals avoided him, and his voice seemed to carry power and weight beyond his years."

So he's the anti-Christ. He's born evil and kills and tortures people at age six. Great writing. /s

"Tenebrae's stepfather confronted his wife in front of a six-year-old Tenebrae, and he proceeded to attack her in anger after she admitted to having had an affair with Lord Dramath. However, Tenebrae fed off the man's anger to fuel his own strength in the dark side, and he used his newfound powers to telekinetically break the farmer's neck. Tenebrae then tortured his mother for months with the Force before killing her for betraying their family, and began to subjugate the other members of his village with his powers.

Over the course of the next four years, Tenebrae's influence and reputation grew as he conquered neighboring villages and raised legions of followers. Some followed the child out of fear of his immense power, while others served out of fanatical loyalty." And also a couple of years after that Marka Ragnos gave him his own planet "because he was just so impressed with the 13 year old and his super awesome unstoppable power!"

*********** WHAT?! You know what this crappy villain sounds like? It sounds like something an edgy teenager would write for a fanfic because he wanted to make his character betterer and strongerer than his friend's character.

"Oh yeah? Well my character was so strong that he could beat Revan!"

"Well...well my character ruled a planet as a kid!"

"Well MY character could eat all life on a planet!"

And you know what? At least with Nihilus they had the decency to make his greatest strength his weakness. Vitiate doesn't have that. He's not interesting. He's boring. He's almost as stupidly overpowered as Darth Sidious in that bizarre Dark Empire series. Not a fan of that comic. Sidious came off like a Dragonball Z character, not that there's anything wrong with Dragonball Z, it just feels weird for Star Wars.

Canderous says the True Sith are an evil out there they couldn't begin to comprehend (On Nihilus ship no less) But this "great evil" is just Nihilus again but without needing to constantly feed! They don't even give them creative designs! Their clothing isn't unique or interesting. It's either knockoffs from previous Star Wars media or colorful armor with big dumb triangles for shoulders.Their ships are just Star Destroyers with a gap in the middle. Giant silver gray triangular ships are overdone. Give it a rest.

And the Exile....holy moly. Her past isn't explored. Her being a wound in the Force isn't even mentioned! She goes to Nathema in the book and is so blown away by the lack of the Force there, and she has no idea what happened there, even though she herself is a wound, she heard of what happened to Visas homeworld, and she dealt with Nihilus himself. Nah, she just gets killed off in a stupid way by Scourge because he had a vision of the Jedi Knight defeating the Emperor, which should have been fulfilled with the Jedi Knight storyline, but because BioWare can't be creative, they just say it was his Voice and they bring Vitiate back over and over and over and over, and also, if you play KOTET with any character that isn't the Jedi Knight and kill Vitiate, the Exile's death and Scourge's vision become pointless.

BioWare will never, ever tell stories as good as classic Obsidian and Chris Avellone. /rant

There's much more to say, but I've written way too much already.

KOTOR 2 is crap.

it has no originality. It takes the great work of KOTOR1 and flushes it away.

The story and setting is ripped right from the OT.

Th villains are empty and should have been combined into one character (or two with one Darth Traya and one other).

The main writer hated Star Wars (at the time though now he felt he came off as too harsh) and used the game to attack Star Wars and say how dumb the force and jedi and everything star wars is. It has a twist (the force bonds) and then pretends it didn't at the end.

it's start is the worst for any game I have ever played. (boring and way too long)

The characters are ******es and Kreia is just evil right from the start, she isn't deep she is just crazy.

If you like KOTOR2 then TLJ is right up your alley.

Depressing, pointless and has a deep hatred of Star Wars and it's fans.

SWTOR and Revan respect and like Star Wars and it's fans, that's why SWTOR is better than Disney. They care.

Also this thread is not about KOTOR2 v the good games (KOTOR and SWTOR) it's about Disney vs SWTOR

KOTOR 2 is crap.

And we can just ignore you now as KOTOR 2 was one of the best told Star Wars games ever.

It's proof of why the fanbase knows more about Star Wars then Disney ever will.

And we can just ignore you now as KOTOR 2 was one of the best told Star Wars games ever.

 

It's proof of why the fanbase knows more about Star Wars then Disney ever will.

It's exactly the same as TLJ

If you love KOTOR2 then TLJ is something you should also love.

It's exactly the same as TLJ

 

If you love KOTOR2 then TLJ is something you should also love.

Dunno, KotOR never did that much for me. Never understood why so many fans wave it around as THE exemplary StarWars story.

It was good, but nowhere as good as to merit the fan sect it seemed to attract.

The Revan plot twist, while not necessarily expectable, seemed like a really blunt move. It was intended as the wow-bomb to make the protagonist's world come crashing around them. But there was so much else going around that this fact alone was not that impactful.

Malak was a cardboard villain. No believable motivation, at least none was mentioned.

Overall, Sith soldiers looked like automatons. Sith forceusers, with rare exceptions (Korriban, especially), looked like high school bullies. No believable excuse (aside lol, dark side) at all.

The companons were hit and miss, most of them not believable.

Carth had the depth of an edgy Buffy the vampire slayer character.

Bastila was practically a teen trying to act all grown-up.

Mission was, well, Mission.

HK was solid comic relief, but not much more.

Only Zalbaar (aside Jolee) seemed to roughly possess a believable personality (ironically, being the least human organic).

No complaints at all about Jolee. He was great.

Overall, It left the impression of a bright - colored cartoon intended to be a cool adventure. Still play it on my smartphone/tablet sometimes, though.

KOTOR2 was more shades of grey, it had more nuance, raised more personal, relatable, human issues. It was more thought-provoking, an experience rather than a ride... Ofc it was raw, came out unfinished and its great potential was never realized. I see no reason to link It to the horror that was TLJ.

An OT ripoff? Why, because the Jedi are nearly gone? Because a planet falls apart at the end? That happens a bit in the lore honestly, though I feel KOTOR 2 happened to do it the most uniquely.

 

The clearest OT ripoff in the KOTOR games is KOTOR 1. It basically hits all the beats, including the great revelation that blows the main character's mind, a tall imposing Sith with a breathing problem, etc.

 

If you don't get the KOTOR 2 love, you'll want to see this:

 

KOTOR 2 is incredibly deep, and what the Revan novel and SWTOR did to it, and KOTOR 1's story by correlation, is absolutely horrid to me.

KOTOR 2 is what TFA is to the Lucas SW...

The price of well thought out characters shouldn't be settling for the overarching narrative to be one more in the laundry list of "last of the XY". KOTOR managed to both have an intriguing cast and plot combined with a distinct era of SW fleshed out for the first time.

As it stands ones evaluation of K2 depends entirely on the take one has on Kreia's story... I'll admit that the pondering question of whether she's the one person in SW mythos that's seen the proverbial light or just a crazy old hag broken by betrayal is mildly intriguing... but I don't believe pulling a soft of-screen reboot of the galaxy to the start of the OT, TFA style, was at all worth it or for that matter needed just to explore that. The potential burned in the title crawls of K2 and TFA is criminal.

If one thinks her philosophy is the 2nd coming of Darth Bane K2 is best thing since sliced bread, if she feels meh the entire game feels like a damp squid as a result. Yaaay I get to be Luke only Ben is TLJ level of cray cray...

KOTOR 2 is crap.

 

it has no originality. It takes the great work of KOTOR1 and flushes it away.

 

The story and setting is ripped right from the OT.

 

Th villains are empty and should have been combined into one character (or two with one Darth Traya and one other).

 

The main writer hated Star Wars (at the time though now he felt he came off as too harsh) and used the game to attack Star Wars and say how dumb the force and jedi and everything star wars is. It has a twist (the force bonds) and then pretends it didn't at the end.

 

it's start is the worst for any game I have ever played. (boring and way too long)

 

The characters are ******es and Kreia is just evil right from the start, she isn't deep she is just crazy.

 

If you like KOTOR2 then TLJ is right up your alley.

 

Depressing, pointless and has a deep hatred of Star Wars and it's fans.

It's exactly the same as TLJ

 

If you love KOTOR2 then TLJ is something you should also love.

This gave me cancer combined with ebola.