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10k heatseakers


cashogy_reborn's Avatar


cashogy_reborn
10.23.2013 , 09:07 PM | #51
Quote: Originally Posted by Macroeconomics View Post
Nah. It's the same thing. You need a crit to hit for 8 or 9k. You are not going to get a crit 80-90% of the time.

Let's face it, although Arsenal has its moments, the reality is that it is not a good burst dps class. Relying on a 22% chance for a HSM crit is just not .... effective. It's like saying you need to be lucky to be good. Rather the strength of the Arsenal class currently is that it has some unique tools, and can actually be pseudo-tanky when attacked by a single enemy melee. It's certainly a lot better off that it was pre-2.0.
wuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut?
Dany - Attomm - Dan'y - Fogel
The Original Stormborn Commando Representative
The King of Bads

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Macroeconomics
10.24.2013 , 12:04 AM | #52
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy_reborn View Post
wuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut?
It's just the way it is. For every time a Merc Arsenal says, "Yeah! I just hit that guy for 10k!", there are 3 or 4 times when his "burst" sequence is just meh. Having a so-called burst sequence that actually bursts only 1 time in 5, just isn't reliable. Rather what we have now with Arsenal is the ability to put overall pressure on a target *IF* certain conditions are in place - namely the target has difficulty breaking up our attack sequence with either an interrupt or LoS break or pushback. Conditions which generally fall in place if one of your melee team mates is also pressuring the target. Which should clue you in as to what the optimal useage for the Arsenal is. We are NOT the burst class that can target an enemy healer and put them down 1v1. We actually suck at that. Any decent healer worth his salt can evade an Arsenal 1v1 and avoid being killed. Because Arsenal suck at pursuit and finishing. What Arsenal is good at is dog piling. Set your team's best melee dps as your focus fire target. Switch to his target and get to work. Almost inevitably the enemy target is going to blow his ultimate defense ability which should give your melee (who IS good at pursuit) a kill once that ability drops. And when the enemy melee comes after you, the Arsenal has a good array of counters - as long as only a single melee is coming after you.

The good burst classes are Rage and Assassins. To give you an idea of how "unbursty" Arsenal actually is, compare and contrast with Merc Pyro - universally considered a low burst class. Yet Merc Pyro will on average do more damage with RS-UL-RS than Arsenal does with TM-HSM. The advantage of Arsenal comes from quite long sequences like: TM - FM - HSM - UL - TM - UL - RS. Sequences that take 13 or more seconds even without being interrupted. That is pressure. Not burst. Merc Pyro simply can not match that kind of output over an extended time window. Really only Sorcs can. And they have the downside of....well.... being a Sorc.

cashogy_reborn's Avatar


cashogy_reborn
10.24.2013 , 10:24 AM | #53
1v1 means literally nothing in terms of competitive PvP and combat balance.
Dany - Attomm - Dan'y - Fogel
The Original Stormborn Commando Representative
The King of Bads

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Macroeconomics
10.24.2013 , 11:07 AM | #54
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy_reborn View Post
1v1 means literally nothing in terms of competitive PvP and combat balance.
I disagree. Merc dps these days seem to have amnesia about the bad 'ole days, aka the 1.3-1.7 era when a Merc dps was a free kill for any competent melee dps. In a warzone environment. I know I felt that way on my melee dps. Unless multiple enemy team mates intervened on the Merc's behalf, I'd kill him. Now the situation is entirely different. Against 99% of the melee dps out there, I feel I will win 1v1. Against the best melee players I will lose, but it will take them so long to get the kill and they will need to blow all their abilities and be sitting ducks should even a single team mate of mine intervene. This altered 1v1 dynamic causes them to completely change their approach to dealing with me. Now they are not approaching me to try and kill me. Instead they watch me, wait for me to target someone else and then leap to me. They are specifically trying to disrupt my attack sequence because their team needs to alleviate the overall pressure I am putting on their team. And when they have succeeded in forcing me to use some of my defensive abilities, they pop some of theirs and extract themselves from their overexposed position. This is why I say half my value to my team these days is in pseudo-tanking. I am forcing some of the enemy melee to lower their own output in order to lower mine. And it is the altered 1v1 dynamic that is forcing them to take these countermeasures rather than relying on the prior, brute force method of simply bull rushing the Merc and getting an easy kill.

Sylvane's Avatar


Sylvane
10.24.2013 , 11:27 AM | #55
Quote: Originally Posted by Macroeconomics View Post
Nah. It's the same thing. You need a crit to hit for 8 or 9k. You are not going to get a crit 80-90% of the time.

Let's face it, although Arsenal has its moments, the reality is that it is not a good burst dps class. Relying on a 22% chance for a HSM crit is just not .... effective. It's like saying you need to be lucky to be good. Rather the strength of the Arsenal class currently is that it has some unique tools, and can actually be pseudo-tanky when attacked by a single enemy melee. It's certainly a lot better off that it was pre-2.0.
I would think his 80-90% would only be in relation to when it crits, as yes most of the time it doesn't crit so there is no chance its hitting over 8k non-crit. I do agree the best tools we have are utility ones but our burst isn't hurting. With min/maxing made easier with solo ranked I'm sitting near 1100 power without the relic proc, so when that 22% crit does happen the damage is significant. Only counting HSM, every 15 seconds we're getting an instant cast that on geared players is potentially doing in the 8~10k range and on undergeared players we are in the 11~13k range, and that's with 1 button.
JC
Sylvand-(Mando)<RG> / «ommander(Merc) <COBRA>
Sylvane-(Sorcerer) <COBRA>
Xšmot-(Jugg) <IBG>
Brohawk-(Sentinel)<RG> / Monkťy-(Marauder)<N2G>

cashogy_reborn's Avatar


cashogy_reborn
10.24.2013 , 12:11 PM | #56
Quote: Originally Posted by Macroeconomics View Post
I disagree. Merc dps these days seem to have amnesia about the bad 'ole days, aka the 1.3-1.7 era when a Merc dps was a free kill for any competent melee dps. In a warzone environment. I know I felt that way on my melee dps. Unless multiple enemy team mates intervened on the Merc's behalf, I'd kill him. Now the situation is entirely different. Against 99% of the melee dps out there, I feel I will win 1v1. Against the best melee players I will lose, but it will take them so long to get the kill and they will need to blow all their abilities and be sitting ducks should even a single team mate of mine intervene. This altered 1v1 dynamic causes them to completely change their approach to dealing with me. Now they are not approaching me to try and kill me. Instead they watch me, wait for me to target someone else and then leap to me. They are specifically trying to disrupt my attack sequence because their team needs to alleviate the overall pressure I am putting on their team. And when they have succeeded in forcing me to use some of my defensive abilities, they pop some of theirs and extract themselves from their overexposed position. This is why I say half my value to my team these days is in pseudo-tanking. I am forcing some of the enemy melee to lower their own output in order to lower mine. And it is the altered 1v1 dynamic that is forcing them to take these countermeasures rather than relying on the prior, brute force method of simply bull rushing the Merc and getting an easy kill.
If you find yourself in frequent 1v1s, youre doing it wrong.

PvP in this game is group oriented. Balance, and balance discussions, should be decided around group interactions.

And if you are attacking someone, and then another enemy attacks you, that is not a 1v1. 2 enemies =/= 1
Dany - Attomm - Dan'y - Fogel
The Original Stormborn Commando Representative
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Macroeconomics
10.24.2013 , 03:59 PM | #57
Quote: Originally Posted by Sylvane View Post
I would think his 80-90% would only be in relation to when it crits, as yes most of the time it doesn't crit so there is no chance its hitting over 8k non-crit. I do agree the best tools we have are utility ones but our burst isn't hurting. With min/maxing made easier with solo ranked I'm sitting near 1100 power without the relic proc, so when that 22% crit does happen the damage is significant. Only counting HSM, every 15 seconds we're getting an instant cast that on geared players is potentially doing in the 8~10k range and on undergeared players we are in the 11~13k range, and that's with 1 button.
Our damage is OK. Not great, but OK. Every 15 seconds we can do 6k damage with HSM against an average player (who does not have any defensive abilities up) with that jumping to 10k about once every 4 attempts, i.e. once per minute. And we can not control when that damage spike occurs, which is practically a precondition to having effective "burst". Compare that to smash monkeys who get that 10k vs. an average player every 15 seconds. On demand. And in AoE form no less. *THAT*, folks is burst.

Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy_reborn View Post
If you find yourself in frequent 1v1s, youre doing it wrong.

And if you are attacking someone, and then another enemy attacks you, that is not a 1v1. 2 enemies =/= 1
Now you are just being stubborn. With the advent of HO for Mercs, 1v1s now happen more frequently than ever. Prior to 2.0, Mercs were the last person on the team that should switch nodes. Now you are one of the first. And in doing so you will get interdicted by a waiting Assassin or enemy melee frequently. I can't believe that you would imply one should not switch nodes quickly and should instead wait for a team mate so you can travel in tandem. But that is basically what you are saying.

Now in arenas, very few 1v1 duels occur. But the context of arena fighting, with constant switching of guard and hence targets, means the Arsenal in that environment will very frequently be forced to deal with an enemy melee in his face. The 45 second free casting episodes which sometimes occur in 8v8 are simply not going to happen against any reasonable opposition in an arena. And then the tools the Arsenal will use to extract himself are the exact same ones used in 1v1 fights. The Arsenal that can only survive via the intervention of his team mates is putting an excessive burden on his team.

Bottom line - it isn't the 1v1 fight from full health to death that is critical since that just doesn't happen from start to finish very often. But if your toon is a helpless kitten in a potential 1v1 fight, then it is a clear signal that you will be drawing and expending more resources and attention from your team mates than is desirable.

cashogy_reborn's Avatar


cashogy_reborn
10.24.2013 , 04:42 PM | #58
Quote: Originally Posted by Macroeconomics View Post
Our damage is OK. Not great, but OK. Every 15 seconds we can do 6k damage with HSM against an average player (who does not have any defensive abilities up) with that jumping to 10k about once every 4 attempts, i.e. once per minute. And we can not control when that damage spike occurs, which is practically a precondition to having effective "burst". Compare that to smash monkeys who get that 10k vs. an average player every 15 seconds. On demand. And in AoE form no less. *THAT*, folks is burst.



Now you are just being stubborn. With the advent of HO for Mercs, 1v1s now happen more frequently than ever. Prior to 2.0, Mercs were the last person on the team that should switch nodes. Now you are one of the first. And in doing so you will get interdicted by a waiting Assassin or enemy melee frequently. I can't believe that you would imply one should not switch nodes quickly and should instead wait for a team mate so you can travel in tandem. But that is basically what you are saying.

Now in arenas, very few 1v1 duels occur. But the context of arena fighting, with constant switching of guard and hence targets, means the Arsenal in that environment will very frequently be forced to deal with an enemy melee in his face. The 45 second free casting episodes which sometimes occur in 8v8 are simply not going to happen against any reasonable opposition in an arena. And then the tools the Arsenal will use to extract himself are the exact same ones used in 1v1 fights. The Arsenal that can only survive via the intervention of his team mates is putting an excessive burden on his team.

Bottom line - it isn't the 1v1 fight from full health to death that is critical since that just doesn't happen from start to finish very often. But if your toon is a helpless kitten in a potential 1v1 fight, then it is a clear signal that you will be drawing and expending more resources and attention from your team mates than is desirable.
Im not going to play a game of hypotheticals with you. Arsenal is a very good DPS choice for competitive PvP, and is being taken b/c of its ability to prevent healers from escaping and its very high burst potential.
Dany - Attomm - Dan'y - Fogel
The Original Stormborn Commando Representative
The King of Bads

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ML_DoubleTap
11.11.2013 , 04:11 PM | #59
Quote: Originally Posted by Macroeconomics View Post
Our damage is OK. Not great, but OK. Every 15 seconds we can do 6k damage with HSM against an average player (who does not have any defensive abilities up) with that jumping to 10k about once every 4 attempts, i.e. once per minute. And we can not control when that damage spike occurs, which is practically a precondition to having effective "burst". Compare that to smash monkeys who get that 10k vs. an average player every 15 seconds. On demand. And in AoE form no less. *THAT*, folks is burst.
You make it sound like the only ability Mercs use is HSM for burst. ED>HSM>RS and they hit nearly at the same time and can be done from 30m, on the run. If just one of those crits it is pretty big burst.
Bonkurz

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-Ashton-
11.23.2013 , 02:20 AM | #60
Lamefish