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gunnery or assault for single target dps?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Commando / Mercenary
gunnery or assault for single target dps?

ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
05.11.2012 , 12:55 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by NoFishing View Post
Personally I never use AoE attacks against single targets, although I do see other commando's liking pulse cannon for targets in range (10m). To me, the AoE attacks use up too much ammo, and don't have any synergy with the skill trees. There always seems to be something better to cast than an AoE once we are down to one target.
Pretty much this. Mortar Volley might be worth the ammo cost but it also has no synergy with the tree and that's three seconds that could be spent casting Grav Round to get another charged barrel stack and possibly a curtain of fire proc.

As said I'll use Mortar Volley, Pulse Cannon, Sticky and Plasma grenades for trash pulls. For single target stuff though just use your main single target abilities.
In update 2.9 the game will simply uninstall itself for you.

-Wnd

Frog_brains's Avatar


Frog_brains
05.12.2012 , 10:22 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by ArchangelLBC View Post
Pretty much this. Mortar Volley might be worth the ammo cost but it also has no synergy with the tree and that's three seconds that could be spent casting Grav Round to get another charged barrel stack and possibly a curtain of fire proc.

As said I'll use Mortar Volley, Pulse Cannon, Sticky and Plasma grenades for trash pulls. For single target stuff though just use your main single target abilities.
thanks for that

Rigsta's Avatar


Rigsta
05.12.2012 , 07:13 PM | #13
There's alot of bad advice in here :-( Someone actually said that MV is hardly worth using. /facepalm

Mortar Volley is extremely strong, especially with armor-piercing cell. Mortar Volley, Pulse Cannon and Plasma Grenade are absolutely worth using on single targets unless you want to save them for an approaching AE burn-down. Just read the tooltips - do you have any other abilities that deal that much damage in the same timespan? No.

If any Commando thinks he lacks lacks AOE ability try this sometime, preferably on a group of smug imperials in a warzone:

(PvE) Power Relic *or* (PvP) Crit Relic + Expertise Adrenal > Reserve Powercell + Plasma Grenade > Sticky Grenade > Mortar Volley > Pulse Cannon

And that's just if you want to unload maximum AE DPS all in one go. For PvE (ops trash/groups of boss adds) I usually end up using Sticky Grenade > Mortar Volley > Pulse Cannon on one group then Plasma Grenade > Sticky Grenade > Pulse Cannon on the next group.

I play assault spec as main for both PvP and PvE. It does alot of damage even when measured against the other DPS classes in my guild, and when measured against gunnery. Gunnery does more damage under ideal conditions over a long fight (ie. on the practice dummy), but you know what? There aren't many boss fights that allow you to just stand still and pew pew to your heart's content.

The problem you're going to run into as a commando is that in PvP a single melee class can shut you down with stuns, pulls, knockbacks, interrupts and mezzes, all from behind the safety of their invulnerability shields. In PvE though, you're fine.

EDIT: Some links for anyone interested -
My assault spec build: click
Gunnery parse on ops dummy w/ smuggler buff: click
Assault spec parse, same gear & buff: click

NoFishing's Avatar


NoFishing
05.13.2012 , 02:24 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Rigsta View Post
Mortar Volley is extremely strong, especially with armor-piercing cell. Mortar Volley, Pulse Cannon and Plasma Grenade are absolutely worth using on single targets unless you want to save them for an approaching AE burn-down. Just read the tooltips - do you have any other abilities that deal that much damage in the same timespan?
You need to check your info, I think you are the one giving bad advice. We aren't just looking at tooltips, we are considering tree procs as well. That is what we mean by "synergy" with the skill trees. Base damage, as gunnery:

MV deals an average of 4094 dmg in 2.88s, for 1422 DPS.
Pulse cannon deals 2497 in 3s, for 832 DPS (elemental damage so bypasses armor).
Plasma grenade deals 1191 kinetic + 1448 elemental in 1.5s for 2639 dmg/GCD, but immensely expensive at *4* ammo!
Demo Round deals an average of 2389 dmg (with 5 GR stacks)/GCD, for 1592 DPS.
HiB deals an average of 2149 dmg (with 5 charged barrels)/GCD, for 1432 DPS.

As for assault, Assault Plastique deals an average of 2099 dmg/GCD, for 1399 DPS. But note the skill that adds 15% more damage on a crit, which would actually raise the expected DPS over MV.

AP, DR, and HiB are on 15s cooldowns, compared to MV's 60sec or plasma grenade's 30s. Those long cooldowns alone are reason why they are not part of a "rotation". Sure you can use them for eyecandy (or on fights where there are no adds needing AoE), but if AP/DR/HiB are off CD, commando's are better off using those.

Also, the OP was specifically talking about single target DPS, and you went on about how you use AoEs against *groups* in PvE and PvP? We all agree our AoEs are strong when there are 2 or more targets in range.

So to summarize, for *SINGLE* targets:
Pulse cannon: useless and expensive.
Hail of Bolts: useless and expensive.
Plasma: Great damage, but prohibitively expensive. Possibly useful as an opener, or as a skill to use after reserve power cell.
MV: not quite so expensive, good damage, but really long cool down. Though now has a very pretty animation!

Rigsta's Avatar


Rigsta
05.13.2012 , 06:45 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by NoFishing View Post
You need to check your info, I think you are the one giving bad advice. We aren't just looking at tooltips, we are considering tree procs as well. That is what we mean by "synergy" with the skill trees.
I am aware of these procs. Curtain of Fire and Ionic Accelerator have a cooldown (iCD) of 6 seconds. During that time it is fine to use skills which cannot trigger CoF/IA. Cell Charger, vortex and Charged Barrel are different animals and I will cover them later.

Quote:
MV deals an average of 4094 dmg in 2.88s, for 1422 DPS.
Pulse cannon deals 2497 in 3s, for 832 DPS (elemental damage so bypasses armor).
Plasma grenade deals 1191 kinetic + 1448 elemental in 1.5s for 2639 dmg/GCD, but immensely expensive at *4* ammo!
Demo Round deals an average of 2389 dmg (with 5 GR stacks)/GCD, for 1592 DPS.
HiB deals an average of 2149 dmg (with 5 charged barrels)/GCD, for 1432 DPS.
I agree, Plastique and HiB should be used whenever available in preference to any other ability, thanks to their crit damage bonus and (for HiB) armor penetration. I'd have to respec and spend some time on the practice dummy to say whether demo round is worth using regardless of whether vortex is fully stacked or not.

I'm assault spec and I accept that gunnery tactics will be different. All numbers below are with assault spec, before damage reduction since that varies between targets, raid buffed & stimmed.

For reference:
  • 2x Charged Bolts = 3,756 kin (4,110 w/ power relic), 4 ammo, 52.5% crit chance (Rakata set bonus)
  • Full Auto = 3,252 kin (~3,500 w/ power relic), 2 ammo, 37.5% crit chance. I only really use it for the 75% chance to proc IA, then I let it run the full 3s for the ammo efficiency.
  • 2x Hammer Shot = less than both of those, forgot to check before my buffs wore off

Whereas:
  • 2 GCDs: Mortar Volley = 4,669 kin (5,133 w/ power relic), 3 ammo, 44.6% crit chance.
  • 2 GCDs: Pulse Cannon = 2761 ele (3,043 w/ power relic), 3 ammo, 44.6% crit chance.
  • 1 GCD: Plasma Grenade = 1,366 kin + 1,602 ele (1503 + 1767 w/ power relic), 44.6% crit chance. Should only be used with Reserve Powercell.

So over 3 seconds:
  • Full Auto should only be used to trigger IA, or as a means to deal damage while keeping ammo high in certain situations.
  • Mortar Volley deals more base damage for 1 less ammo, crit chance is roughly equal (6 hits vs 2 hits generally means a better average).
  • Pulse Cannon does roughly equal damage taking mitigation into account, for 1 less ammo.

And finally, Plasma Grenade deals much more damage than any other 1-GCD ability, for zero ammo - because one should only use it with Reserve Powercell.

Notable assault spec mechanics to take into account:
  • +3% tech crit and +30% DoT damage on targets below 30% health.
  • Reserve Powercell's cooldown is reduced by any critcal hits, subject to a short iCD. This allows it to be used roughly every 40-50 seconds, which in turn allows one to use Plasma Grenade or other high-ammo abilities more often.
  • Charged Bolts & Full Auto deal +9% damage to burning targets.

Notable differences for Gunnery:
  • Cell Charger increases the ammo efficiency of Grav Round, Full Auto and Demo round, but should not be relied upon (imo) due to the random nature of crits.
  • Vortex debuff and Charged Barrel buff strongly encourage the use of Grav Round over pretty much every other ability.
  • The different between kinetic & elemental damage is less than assault spec due to Armour-Piercing Cell and vortex.

So on closer inspection, I mostly agree with you where Gunnery is concerned The usefulness of our AE abilities on single targets is dimished for those of us speccing Gunnery. I still believe that Mortar Volley is worth using when circumstances allow - it hits hard with AP cell and is ammo efficient, but tbh I'd have to do more maths than I can be bothered with to figure out if it's better or wose than the 2 Charged Barrel stacks you can potentially gain during that time.

Assuming you're at max ammo regen, Reserve Powercell would be best used with Plasma Grenade or MV. 1.8 ammo would regen while channeling MV and it can do more damage, but Plasma Grenade would allow you to get back to your normal abilities more quickly and is less susceptible to interruption.

Incidentally, Gunnery's total reliance on grav round is the reason I specced assault.

Quote:
Also, the OP was specifically talking about single target DPS, and you went on about how you use AoEs against *groups* in PvE and PvP? We all agree our AoEs are strong when there are 2 or more targets in range.
That was actually in response to some later replies claiming our AE is lacking. I wanted to debunk those claims. Especially the one saying that MV is entirely useless in all situations since it was nerfed.


And just to get mildly on-topic(!) : In my experience, Gunnery & Assault end up being pretty even in terms of single-target damage. I prefer assault for its DoT effects, high tech crit, extra damage to low-health targets and assault plastique. Others swear by gunnery. Try them both for a few days at lv 40+ and see which one you prefer. Re-specs are cheap.

Shadenuat's Avatar


Shadenuat
05.14.2012 , 12:37 AM | #16
Rigsta, why 3% Endurance over 4% Alacricity? Alacricity buffs every ticking and channeling stuff.

I myself drift to 1/7/33. I just can't make myself pass on Reactive Shield because of PvP.

Boufsa's Avatar


Boufsa
05.14.2012 , 04:54 AM | #17
Some players totally stopped to rely on alacricity. For reference, see the folowing extract of the weekly Q&A:
Quote:
Freeborne: Alacrity as a stat seems to be encouraged in "Energy Based' classes (Troopers/Smugglers) through our talent trees. However, Alacrity seems to be a terrible secondary stat for us. The faster we use abilities, the faster we lose our energy - and the less energy we have, the less energy we regenerate. Are there any plans to review Alacrity, or at least its place in some class talent trees?

Austin: I agree. We're exploring ways of improving Alacrity that we hope to get working for a future Game Update. As much as I'd like to, I can't provide details on this plan yet. It's possible that we'll address passive Alacrity boosts in the skill trees, but those changes need to be solid and work for the long haul; it would be unacceptable to have a ‘temporary’ skill in place that we planned on removing at a later date.
As for me I am still investing two points in it, because I feel like if I have energy losses, I still can use hammer shots which is far for being a useless ability and allows to stack some more dps. But I somehow feel like it's kind of a loss because the velocity gained (4%) is very very low (grav round is 1.44s instead of 1.5s). So I find understandable to neglect it

Rigsta's Avatar


Rigsta
05.14.2012 , 05:53 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Shadenuat View Post
Rigsta, why 3% Endurance over 4% Alacricity? Alacricity buffs every ticking and channeling stuff.

I myself drift to 1/7/33. I just can't make myself pass on Reactive Shield because of PvP.
Well firstly, it's a PVE spec. For PVP I'd drop some damage skills for the shield cooldown and maybe the snare removal.

To my knowledge, alacrity does not affect DoTs/HoTs in this game. It's my opinion that alacrity skills are not worth the points unless your gear also has alacrity rating on it. Even then, every combat medic I've spoken to prefers power, crit and surge to alacrity.

I am considering dropping 1% endurance for another 1% accuracy though. If I can find the right mods/enhancements it'll allow me to swap out some accuracy rating for more power.

NoFishing's Avatar


NoFishing
05.14.2012 , 09:46 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Rigsta View Post
And just to get mildly on-topic(!) : In my experience, Gunnery & Assault end up being pretty even in terms of single-target damage. I prefer assault for its DoT effects, high tech crit, extra damage to low-health targets and assault plastique. Others swear by gunnery. Try them both for a few days at lv 40+ and see which one you prefer. Re-specs are cheap.
Agreed. I've been switching back and forth myself for the past couple of weeks, and can't really decide. But I am glad to find somebody that believes Assault can be equal to Gunnery for PvE DPS!! Many of the responses I've gotten to my AS questions have been "you're doing it wrong...go gunnery".

I'm gunnery right now because in my last infernal council encounter as assault, I was last among the DPS in my group to finish. But of course that fight favors stationary turrets, and maybe the armor reductions of grav round. Or maybe I just needed to toss in a MV and grenade.

ZGOZZ's Avatar


ZGOZZ
11.12.2013 , 04:57 PM | #20
So what is the tree specs?
And any info on rotation?