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Fixing Grade 11 (6.0) crafting

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Fixing Grade 11 (6.0) crafting

Transcendent's Avatar


Transcendent
11.10.2019 , 01:31 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Estelindis View Post
Anyone who wants to contribute, please make specific suggestions or tweak someone else's suggestions.
  • Also because of the need for more grade 11 green materials, realign the proportion of green to blue to purple materials provided by harvesting nodes to approx. 7:2:1.
A small addition to this one, because I've deliberately gathered with my Materials Inventory open to see what quantities I'm receiving.

It would be useful to tighten up the range of the materials returned from the gathering nodes specifically, I've been getting anything from 3 to 20 of the same material (in this case Bioanalysis mats). Ideally this needs to be a much tighter range, with a smaller percentage variance.

8 to 16 of greens would be an ideal range, if the base is 12 that would be a +/- 33.3% range, what I've been seeing while gathering is a range more akin to +/- 75-80% which is far too inconsistent and unnecessarily increases the time required to gather materials.

Obviously this depends on whether the Grade 11 schematics get reverted to 2/2/2 and the number of steps required decreased.

The second point that needs to be made is Crew Mission skills. I'm seeing Rich yields on Diplomacy for one type of material only, the other type simply isn't there. A pass through of all of the Grade 11 Crew Mission skills to ensure that each type of material is equally represented at each tier of mission wouldn't go amiss. That seems more like an oversight than anything else.
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SteveTheCynic's Avatar


SteveTheCynic
11.10.2019 , 03:22 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Estelindis View Post
Additionally, this is a purely subjective suggestion made solely on behalf of people like me who craft for pretty things rather than stats, so it's a comment on part of crafting rather than crafting as a whole, but...
  • Please add purely cosmetic items at grade 11 (two dyes and one new colour of crystal for artifice is all you gave us; new synthweaving and armormech outfits have stats, when you could also give us empty shell outfits, armstech could get empty weapon shells, artifice empty sabers, more dyes and crystals, mounts for cybertech, etc).
I agree with the basic idea here, although it's worth noting that Outfit Designer means that armour pieces *are* cosmetic, except that while OD ignores weight restrictions, it does obey class-lock and level-lock restrictions, meaning that lowbie characters can't use grade 11 statted gear in OD.
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Sambril's Avatar


Sambril
11.10.2019 , 04:18 AM | #13
In my view the OPs suggestions do not go far enough. Grade 11 crafting should be brought in line with Grade 1 - 10 crafting. I do not understand why it was felt necessary to change that pattern in the first place - it can't have been to slow down gearing, some players were full 306 with a day or two of launch simply by chain running flashpoints.
  • Material nodes should give green materials only, blue and purple materials should come from missions. Missions, along with white materials (of which there should only be 1 for grade 11) are your credit and time sink.
  • Green items should require green and white materials only.
  • Blue items should add blue mission items to the list of requirements (no isotopes)
  • Purple items should add purple mission items to the list of requirements (no matrices)
  • Gold items are the only ones that should require exotic materials, including isotopes and matrices
  • The amounts of materials required should match previous grades.
  • Jawa junk costs should be reduced to match previous grades also, to offset this they should be removed from slicing nodes.
  • Training costs should be reduced considerably or dropped altogather - 1.5m per toon is a large barrier to entry.
  • RE chance should be increased to at least 20% if the previous value of 60% is deemed too high.
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Estelindis's Avatar


Estelindis
11.10.2019 , 10:56 AM | #14
Thanks to everyone who has responded so far, both here and on Reddit. I hope we can keep discussion going.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ergecrs View Post
So basically you want to craft the best gear, with little effort ? Thatís what I read in all this. Pity times massive increase to chances for crits. No effort even though everything was being posted to gtn first week. God forbid we actually have to work at getting stuff.
A pity timer is not my preferred resolution for the current issue of REing / deconstruction being too wasteful and too RNG-dependent. My preference is to increase the base % chance so that it's never lower than 20%. Main reason is that (as far as I know) there is no pity timer mechanic anywhere in SWTOR currently, and I don't think our best bet to fix things quickly is to ask Bioware to introduce wholly new mechanics. Plus one of the main complaints is that grade 11 crafting has been made much more difficult than all previous grades, so our aim is to restore it to parity, not necessarily to make it any easier than it was before. Nonetheless, in some of the threads discussing crafting, the idea was mentioned that it shouldn't be possible to (for instance) RE 40 items and still not succeed, so I wanted to represent that concern in this topic.

By the way, the fact that some people get lucky with RNG does not change the overall statistical situation in the playerbase.

Also, it's important not to consider only those who enter the crafting market: many people like to craft solely for themselves, to be "self-sufficient." But, for the record, the best way to keep the crafting market competitive is to not artificially raise the difficulty. If crafting is pretty easy to get into, then anyone can do it if they want, so no one is beholden to "the market" - people simply choose to craft if they want to, and choose to buy from others if they don't feel like crafting. On the other hand, if crafting is artificially restricted, then a small number of players with massive resources to sink into an expensive process will be able to hold everyone else over a barrel. That's not good for the game.

Quote: Originally Posted by aristein View Post
I agree with all of these suggestions accept maybe the reverting back to 2/2/2. If they increase the drop as they did, and add a guaranteed amount of greens to mission results (I would think at least 8-10), then 2/2/2 may be too easy. If they do all the other suggestions on you list, I can see maybe a 6/8/8 or something being harder, but workable (especially if they raise the RE percentage to at lease 20%...so you don't have to waste an average of 20 mods just to get a RE pop).

The problem (as I see it) is that they didn't make one thing harder, they made all things harder (not enough greens per mission, MASSIVELY increased materials requirements, multiple levels to craft EACH higher level, lower RE rates, etc. ) And, these difficulties didn't add up, they MULTIPLIED the difficulty. It's so hard to get mats for blues, that most crafters can't afford to waste 20 blues (or more with bad luck) just to get one purple recipe (and that not even taking into account actually crafting purples).
I agree that the problem is that they made everything harder. However, I maintain that basic components need to go back to 2/2/2, in parity with all previous grades. I would have more flexibility about some of my other suggestions (such as number of extra moderate missions to be added or extra green resources to be returned by missions) if the 2/2/2 change was made.

As it stands, current grade 11 moderate missions give a decent amount of materials but only when measured against a 2/2/2 requirement. A grade 11 moderate mission will generally return 10 green materials on regular success and 20 on a critical success. This is a higher amount than the highest-yield missions of previous grades. For instance, if I run a rich grade 1 archaeology mission for power crystals, I will receive (to be the best of my recollection) 8 rubat crystals on success or 10 on a crit. However, this is counter-balanced by the fact that I am able to run other concurrent missions to get more rubat crystals if I wish, whereas there is only one grade 11 mission that returns solely green power crystals. Further pressure is then applied by the fact that I need x3 green materials to make blue and x9 to make purple components, a requirement that doesn't exist in any other grade. So my view is that, yes, basic components need to go down to 2/2/2, and if that is done then additionally we need either missions to return some more green materials, or some extra missions returning green materials to be added (but not double and quadruple in this scenario).
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Freyasin's Avatar


Freyasin
11.10.2019 , 12:03 PM | #15
While I do think much of the crafting world is going to be dead until they fix it. The biggest barrier is Solid Resource Matrix. Having this only come from conquests is killing the ability of the vast majority crafters. At the moment, I cannot craft anything unless I am willing to spend millions off the GTN to even make a green that I am going to RE at least 10 times to get the upgrade. Legendary Embers are the same thing.

Whoever at BW decided to go this route should have his paycheck be paid out in penny's, nickels, and dimes until he decides to change it. And maybe for good measure, we should throw in some RNG to make it interesting.

Tsillah's Avatar


Tsillah
11.10.2019 , 12:08 PM | #16
My views are slightly different but I do feel there need to be changes so here are my suggestions:

1 - Augments
Fix the SRM issue (conquest mat). SRMs are too few as a reward for the amount you need to craft and in particular get schems from deconstruction. This is a combination of the low drop rate from conquest rewards, the low chance (5%) of getting such a schem and the fact that blue schems already need a lot of SRMs.

Possible fixes:
a) Increase the availability of SRMs
b) Increase the chance on a schem from deconstruction
c) Lower the amount of SRMs needed for blue schems

SRMs are now solely available through conquest and particularly based on how well your guild performs and how many alts you get over 50k. I think that's too punitive for people in smaller guilds or who don't play many alts. Perhaps they should drop 1-X from renown crates so that people have more available based on play time rather than playing in a certain way only and having to put many alts through conquest.

The chance of a schem should be at least doubled to 10% in order to be less punitive.

The amount of SRMS for blue schems should be reduced to 1-2.

My idea is that these 3 things are done at the same time, not just one of them.


2 - Green mat availability

One of the core issues that I see currently is that it's actually too hard to get green mats from gathering missions. When you have scavenging at 700 there are only 2 missions that are really useful: they grey ones. The green ones give a little bit of green mats but fewer and the yellow and orange missions give zero green mats. To add insult to injury (a bit dramatic but it fits), you can have r50 companions and legacy perks set and still it is possible for your companions to FAIL a greyed out mission. Then on top of it the jawa junk situation is out of control as well: 200 junk for one green item is NOT a fair trade even with increased drops of jawa junk.

Possible fixes:
a) Give more green mats from missions
b) Don't let grey missions fail anymore
c) Reduce jawa junk cost for r11 materials

The idea here is to have grey and green missions give ample green mats. Green missions currently give a pittance or give 2 more grey missions.

I do not think it's fair that r50 companions can fail grey missions so that needs to stop

Finally the cost of 200 jawa junk for 1 green mat is preposterous. I am now stacking more jawa junk than before in my storage because it's just not worth it. I personally feel that it should be reduced to 10 jawa junk but remove them as rewards from gathering missions that fail and from slicing nodes. There is entirely too much jawa junk but even a stack of 9999 jawa junk can only almost buy 50 mats. Considering how many mats you need, that's just plain stupid.

In my view jawa junk should only come from deconstruction and the amounts should make sense there. It's become an annoying currency right now.

3 - Crafting bandwidth
What I mean here is the question of what you can do with crafting or how useful it is. Currently the mods and accessories you can craft are useless because they are obsolete already because of the gearing system giving out better gear so easily. Beyond augments and stims, there's nothing really useful that I've seen so far. There's an occasional tactical but that's it. I can't re mods or anything for schems so what gives with that?

The solution lies simply in the concept of making crafting more part of endgame gearing by giving it more options but it's too big a thing to tackle in detail here. One thing I'd like to see is the addition of amplifiers as craftable upgrades, which would solve another problem as well. Perhaps a system where you craft and amplifier and then have an item (shell, mod) that you put in the modification station with a new enhance option which absorbs the amplifiers.

-------

Overall I am not against crafting being a bit more difficult and costly than it was. It was a joke before to be honest. But there are some things, like I mentioned above, that are out of whack. Higher mat costs are fine but it shouldn't be so difficult to get green mats from gathering missions for example. That makes the system feel punitive rather than fun.
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Transcendent's Avatar


Transcendent
11.10.2019 , 02:28 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Tsillah View Post
I do not think it's fair that r50 companions can fail grey missions so that needs to stop
Actually I think this is something I'd like to add my viewpoint on. Considering the expense and credit sink involved in getting multiple companions on multiple crafting or gathering alts to Rank 50, I honestly believe that the chance for failure on crew skill missions for Rank 50 companions should be zero.

If BioWare want incentive's for people to use up their credits, this is one way of doing it, make it a perk of Rank 50 companions to have zero failure rate on crew skill missions alongside an increased chance of critical success. As it stands with 6.0 it seems there is no incentive at all to have Rank 50 companions aside from faster gathering, which can be overcome by simply having multiple alts with the same crew skills.
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phalczen's Avatar


phalczen
11.10.2019 , 08:54 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Ergecrs View Post
So basically you want to craft the best gear, with little effort ? Thatís what I read in all this. Pity times massive increase to chances for crits. No effort even though everything was being posted to gtn first week. God forbid we actually have to work at getting stuff. People in MMOís now have such a poor attitude. They donít understand what a grind is. They have no clue how it used to be in games where you literally would have to grind items for months at a time to get the best gears.
I do. I used to play SWG where you needed to grind Krayt Dragons, Nightsisters, and whatever else to try and get subcomponents that you would then take to a crafter, usually another real person, perhaps in your guild. You would know them because they searched every inch of every planet for good resources, placed as many harvesters as their lot limit would allow. They had a shop where you could see the quality of their workmanship. You'd entrust those hard-work-acquired components and give them to this crafter who would make you the best whatever ... armor piece, weapon. Don't forget carrying a trader into the Death Watch Bunker to craft your Mandalorian Armor.

Give it a rest. This is not about working hard, or being lazy. This isn't about an interesting or challenging system. I've seen what that is, and this game will never hold a candle to SWG's crafting system even after the NGE.

I've got no problem "working hard," "stockpiling materials," etc. What I have a problem with is:

1. Spending about 20 cycles of four characters with rank 50 companions, all eight sent out on gathering missions and my fifth harvesting bio materials in the wild ...
2. Crafting 24 stacks of artifact-quality biochem consumables
3. Trying to reverse engineer those stacks at a 5% RE chance
4. Getting no schematics from that and getting materials completely unrelated to my crafting profession as a result.

I said it in the other thread and I'll repeat it here: The resource requirements and nested components might be tolerable IF the RE chance wasn't simultaneously punishingly nerfed and doesn't return nearly enough materials to make ONE end product. There is no amount of hard work that can "ensure" a RE result, and that's what I have a problem with. In SWG, if I managed to loot that legendary component, I could take it to a good crafter and with good resources have a reasonable expectation of the outcome. That's because the crafter would have worked hard to have good resources. That's what I consider to be worth it.

Sorry for taking the thread off topic, Estelindis.
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Void_Singer's Avatar


Void_Singer
11.10.2019 , 11:22 PM | #19
A rare conquest mat, in quantities greater than any single character can earn in a week, should NEVER have been a requirement on (blue) training level crafts... and should be removed as a requirement across the board

Materials costs for Item modifications should be considerably LOWER than entire gear pieces, by a minimum of HALF

Crew Misisons return values should be tightened up... qualities should not be randomized, rich and wealthy missions should return a rough ratio of 1:2:6 ( or whatever the ratio is after reducing craft costs)

G11 craft requirements should be cut in half as a starting point.... I get that it was a real cute way to disguise how utterly draconian craft changes were behind bigger numbers, but there's no disguising the explosion of time and cost requirements.... I know when it takes 4 times as many materials runs to make the same number of crafts.

fix the bloody mats storage. Default Sort is [Category > Grade > Quality (eg artifact) > Type (eg Compound) > Alphabetical] Filters are Grade / Quality / search-match. Categories for craft skills for assembly parts, vendor mats go in gather skill category, and items that are also currency do NOT go in mats storage. if you can't do that, then just give u 5 old style storage bays and let us figure it out ourselves.


And it might help to remind the designers that outside of reusables and augments NOTHING crafted is even remotely max gear. There is no reason it should be harder to craft basic armor and mods than it is to earn much better gear through other content. Nor should it take the same amount of Rare Materials to make an augment which IS max gear, as an armor piece which isn't even halfway there.
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DawnAskham
11.11.2019 , 05:06 AM | #20
Remove conquest material from any item that isn't conquest related and / or isn't an alternative method for obtaining an end-game 306 equivalent item.

Adjust mission returns so the ratio of greens matches that of crafting requirements, and such that they follow basic mission logic (the higher the skill, cost, time - the more materials, including greens).

Adjust crafting materials costs and or mission returns to bring total time required to craft an item closer to 6.0 levels (e,g, decrease materials required and / or increase mission returns).

Return mission success / failure rates to pre 6.0 levels (it appears an addition 5% or so has been added to all missions).

Massively increase RE chance - 5% is ridiculous and has the potential of leaving a significant number of players burning through hours of crafting without making any progress (effort should be rewarded - not dumb luck).

Display critical, success / failure, and time modifiers for crafting to players - including base information + companion bonuses + guild bonuses + amplifiers + legacy + etc.

Make all crafted items relevant - items such as basic gear and modifications should be craft-able (e.g. use basic gathering / mission materials) at close to 306 levels (in 6.0, early gear was 230, crafting was 228, so 304-ish).

Requiring the amount of materials (especially the inclusion of conquest materials) along with multiple iterations against an extremely low RE just for a chance to learn something well below what drops from easy mode Hammer Station makes no sense.