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Devs, you're missing your window to save Operative/Scoundrel healing

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Devs, you're missing your window to save Operative/Scoundrel healing
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Arrys's Avatar


Arrys
02.14.2012 , 01:20 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Paladinian View Post
Very well put bobudo. I am in complete agreement with everything you said, save perhaps that "overpowering" changes are required. I wouldn't go so far to say that myself, but your point does merit some consideration!
He's correctly noting that there is a tipping point where if they go past it in order to rejuvenate the class they would have to make it FOTM to attract levellers and players willing to do the backlog work to enjoy the benefits of the FOTM status. Simply making it as good would no longer fix the imbalance issue in population terms. Don't think he's saying they have reached that point just that they could.

Doki's Avatar


Doki
02.14.2012 , 02:03 PM | #12
Just yesterday I (Ops healer) got tossed from a 16 man Karraga's run (essentially, was invited, told "Oh, I thought you were a different class, we can't use you", then dropped) because I wasn't a Sorc/Sage healer. Keep in mind that it wasn't because they had too many Ops healers already -- the other two healers were a Merc (main) and Sorc (AoE).

So, back to PvP healing, guess no PvE raiding for me (I'm lucky to even get a Hard mode flashpoint run in with the amount of Sorc healers running around on my server)

Of course, with 1.2 introducing ranked PvP matches, it looks like I'll start being exceluded from PvP as well. Hence, I'm in the monthly plan and fully expect to quit around March, because I have absolutely no faith that this issue will be addressed.
Quote:
As for Scoundrels having no tools for short burst healing, we donít agree with that assessment. A scoundrel, for example, is capable of producing rather significant burst healing output by using Upper Hand gained from Underworld Medicine or Kolto Injection to trigger an instant Emergency Medpack or Surgical probe when needed.

bobudo's Avatar


bobudo
02.14.2012 , 02:13 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Paladinian View Post
I am in complete agreement with everything you said, save perhaps that "overpowering" changes are required. I wouldn't go so far to say that myself, but your point does merit some consideration!
I don't think overpowering changes are needed if they act immediately and begin implementing some of the ideas from the Request Compendium.

I think that overpowering changes will be required if they sit on this and refuse to make any fixes prior to the 1.2 content patch, as Operative/Scoundrel healing will die off and you'll need a massive incentive to (1) bring back the people who left and (2) convince groups to do run an undergeared Operative/Scoundrel (because they don't have Operation spots) vs. a well-geared Sorcerer/Sage.

Of course, this requires the assumption that Bioware actually intended the non-Sorcerer/Sage healers to be full-fledged viable healers.

But balance is fickle. You leave something out of balance too long and it's not easy to tip the scales back - healers like myself (and you!) are migrating to the Sorcerer/Sage because the balance is so against Operative/Scoundrel healers and so in favor of the Sorcerer/Sage healer.

But what about if it was only a 5% different (or the 2% that we were promised)? Would you switch? I wouldn't; too much effort for too little gain.

The same is true in reverse, thought not as dramatic. After everyone has jumped ship from Operative/Scoundrel healing, what can you do to entice them to come back? What would the developers have to offer to entice someone to throw away the work done leveling up a Sorcerer/Sage to play Operative/Scoundrel again?

Likely nothing short of a complete overhaul of the Operative/Scoundrel class.

(there's a tangent in here that I thought was distracting, but didn't want to delete)
Spoiler


But that's not the point. The point is that if Bioware acts now, they can put the class on life support while they work out what exactly they want to do with us. By keeping us playing as Operative/Scoundrel healers, they don't have to introduce later overpowering changes to induce us back.

That's why I say they're missing their window. I get that it's launch and that they're in bugfix/content mode, but this issue actually needs attention now if they intend on not just tossing away an entire healing class. It's either start fixing the class yesterday, or be content with only having 1.5 healing classes in SWTOR until the expansion.
Bioware hates healing such that they won't take any healing problems seriously. Support your local healers. Boycott the Patch 1.2 Healing Nerfs. Make it clear to the Devs that their idea of "balance" is unacceptable. Unsubscribe Today

Doki's Avatar


Doki
02.14.2012 , 02:21 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by bobudo View Post
That's why I say they're missing their window. I get that it's launch and that they're in bugfix/content mode, but this issue actually needs attention now if they intend on not just tossing away an entire healing class. It's either start fixing the class yesterday, or be content with only having 1.5 healing classes in SWTOR until the expansion.
Honestly, this is not happening, and I expect it not to anytime in the near future.

Evidence: Medical Therapy is STILL broken. No dev acknowledgement.

Oh, and the Ops/Scoundrel boards are the least posted to of the class boards by far. Wish I saved the numbers/source from the post I saw, so you'll have to take my word on this...
Quote:
As for Scoundrels having no tools for short burst healing, we donít agree with that assessment. A scoundrel, for example, is capable of producing rather significant burst healing output by using Upper Hand gained from Underworld Medicine or Kolto Injection to trigger an instant Emergency Medpack or Surgical probe when needed.

Delmyr's Avatar


Delmyr
02.14.2012 , 02:26 PM | #15
....in the link the OP provides to healer requests there is a dev reply on page six. It tells me that they aren't ignoring the issues but aren't final on plans to fix them. They probably don't want to give speculation abOut fixes as there are such great threads outlining them. I'm sorry patience can't be a virtue to everyone but no matter the action time will always be a factor.
I see the problem here. Hm, yes. You are suffering from No Challenge Withdrawal. I'm sorry but there is no cure other than getting a full team premade to form a wedge to annihilate those fleeing from the inevitable faceroll.

Xaearth's Avatar


Xaearth
02.14.2012 , 02:36 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Delmyr View Post
....in the link the OP provides to healer requests there is a dev reply on page six. It tells me that they aren't ignoring the issues but aren't final on plans to fix them. They probably don't want to give speculation abOut fixes as there are such great threads outlining them. I'm sorry patience can't be a virtue to everyone but no matter the action time will always be a factor.
You mean this post by a Community Representative?:
Quote: Originally Posted by LexiCazam View Post

Hi everyone, thanks for compiling this list and keeping this discussion constructive and interesting! We love to see threads like this and appreciate the effort you've all put into the community!
You do realize that in no way addresses whether or not the devs are even aware as to the shortfalls of Operative healing compared side-by-side to the other healers?

(Not to mention that an Operative literally side-by-side to the other healers brings 0 utility to an encounter... Except maybe combat rez and "creative use of mechanics" to non-combat rez.)
"The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones;
So let it be with BioWare."
~ SWTOR Update 1.2: Legacy

bobudo's Avatar


bobudo
02.14.2012 , 02:53 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Delmyr View Post
....in the link the OP provides to healer requests there is a dev reply on page six. It tells me that they aren't ignoring the issues but aren't final on plans to fix them. They probably don't want to give speculation abOut fixes as there are such great threads outlining them. I'm sorry patience can't be a virtue to everyone but no matter the action time will always be a factor.
That's not a dev reply, that's a Customer Service Rep; specifically one of the people who steward the forums moving threads, sticking posts, etc.

It tells me nothing. It is not indicative of anyone paying any attention to these issues (If I tell you that you're doing a great job with your finances and that the situation is being monitored, do you feel any more reassured?); it does not portend any plans or fixes.

Dev posts don't speculate - players speculate. All of our posts are pure speculation and commentary on the class; not only are several different posters approaching the class from different design concepts (my concept of the Operative/Scoundrel class is very different than RuQu's such that it would be difficult to implement both), but implementing all of the different ideas tossed out would make the Operative/Scoundrel ridiculously overpowered.

This isn't about patience being a virtue; my (in)ability to sit and wait for changes is a non-factor: I'm already leveling up a Sorcerer, and if I get tired of that I can always unsubscribe (and I'm under no illusions they would miss $15/mo.).

The difference is that if the devs don't act now they are going to lose this class. The balance is too far askew. They might as well remove it from the selection screen so that they'll stop getting complaints like this when new Operative/Scoundrel healers hit 50 and find themselves with no opportunities.

If they start releasing new end-game content without (at least) starting to fixing the Operative/Scoundrel, there will be no place for them until the 1st expansion. If that's what the Devs prefer that's fine - it's their game; I'm merely fulfilling my job of pointing out issues.
Bioware hates healing such that they won't take any healing problems seriously. Support your local healers. Boycott the Patch 1.2 Healing Nerfs. Make it clear to the Devs that their idea of "balance" is unacceptable. Unsubscribe Today

Jmerithew's Avatar


Jmerithew
02.14.2012 , 02:54 PM | #18
Bump.
I agree 100% with this thread. I've held out on making a sorc for now, but as it gets closer to a new raid tier coming, I know I'm going to have to work twice as hard as the sorcs in my guild to keep my raid spot. If I had wanted to be a sorc healer I would've made that decision at launch, but now it seems like I'm being forced in that direction

Delmyr's Avatar


Delmyr
02.14.2012 , 03:40 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by bobudo View Post
That's not a dev reply, that's a Customer Service Rep; specifically one of the people who steward the forums moving threads, sticking posts, etc.

It tells me nothing. It is not indicative of anyone paying any attention to these issues (If I tell you that you're doing a great job with your finances and that the situation is being monitored, do you feel any more reassured?); it does not portend any plans or fixes.

Dev posts don't speculate - players speculate. All of our posts are pure speculation and commentary on the class; not only are several different posters approaching the class from different design concepts (my concept of the Operative/Scoundrel class is very different than RuQu's such that it would be difficult to implement both), but implementing all of the different ideas tossed out would make the Operative/Scoundrel ridiculously overpowered.

This isn't about patience being a virtue; my (in)ability to sit and wait for changes is a non-factor: I'm already leveling up a Sorcerer, and if I get tired of that I can always unsubscribe (and I'm under no illusions they would miss $15/mo.).

The difference is that if the devs don't act now they are going to lose this class. The balance is too far askew. They might as well remove it from the selection screen so that they'll stop getting complaints like this when new Operative/Scoundrel healers hit 50 and find themselves with no opportunities.

If they start releasing new end-game content without (at least) starting to fixing the Operative/Scoundrel, there will be no place for them until the 1st expansion. If that's what the Devs prefer that's fine - it's their game; I'm merely fulfilling my job of pointing out issues.
I'm not saying you are doing anything wrong but clearly making a class OP is not an acceptable answer as disrupting the playing of the majority of the player base won't fix anything. Class choice should be that, not OPFOTM. It's obvious to know that they are aware of the situation as they are ignoring it. That being said if they don't have a plan what is the point of telling the population that other than confirming there is a problem there by CONFIRMING there is a problem making the situation worse. It would give fuel rather than just fumes to those people who want to leave everyone but sorcs out of their group.
I see the problem here. Hm, yes. You are suffering from No Challenge Withdrawal. I'm sorry but there is no cure other than getting a full team premade to form a wedge to annihilate those fleeing from the inevitable faceroll.

Khadroth's Avatar


Khadroth
02.14.2012 , 03:54 PM | #20
I support the OP's concerns. Personally my guild only ran operations with 1 scoundrel. He was of course scrapper spec, so when the nerfs quit he basically transfered back to playing his imperial characters and hasn't been seen since. Last I heard from him was that all the other specs for this class were useless.

It's honestly sad that I do not know a single Scoundrel healer on my high population server. I occasionally see an operative one in pvp, and proceed to melt their face since I know at best they're just going to vanish, taking them completely out of the fight long enough to kill the other players.

In short I support the OP despite knowing nothing really about the spec. The reason I know nothing about the spec is of course because I never encounter it, in either PvE or PvP. That right there should suggest major issues.
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