This stealth nerf of removing Veteran's Edge stack from NIM raids is just a GIANT middle finger to every guild currently doing progression on older content.

 

Who asked for this, anyways? Who was demanding DPS, Heals, and Tank health be nerfed for the hardest content in the game? I haven't seen anyone asking for this.

 

And before you say "Git Gud", our guild had been doing progression on NIM TFB, specifically the Dread guard. Over the course of the last month and a half, we have gone from routinely wiping on Heirad to nearly beating it with only 8-9% left on Kelsara on our best pull (and we only raid once a week for 2 hours). We were all looking forward to progression this week because we were hopeful we'd finally be able to down them. Now it's basically going to be impossible.

 

This fight was already a HUGE heals check that our heals were barely able to keep up with, and now you're both nerfing their heals and the tanks health? Yeah, thanks, but no thanks.

 

This change needs to be undone immediately, or what little is left of the NIM raiding community will die. Or better yet, just do like literally EVERYONE has been asking and make this level 75 content.

Be careful and the elitist trolls will come out of the wood work, They are already out in full force in the maintenance thread....

Be careful and the elitist trolls will come out of the wood work, They are already out in full force in the maintenance thread....

 

And how many of them are actually doing NIM progression here in 6.0/6.1?!? Why is BW listening to people who don't even play this content, as opposed to the people who do?

What happens is that they will clear the content in a week and go do something else and in the mean time complain about of lack of content / challenge. And the devs listen to them, change the game and the rest that keep the game alive are stuck with the consequences. Frankly, it saddens me that there is a gap between the haves and have nots in this game and the arbitrary line that divides the ppl. Why is there such favouritism? Why does the vocal minority dictate the game? This change affected everyone, why not be transparent?

I think the only way they will even consider putting the stacks back on is if enough people leave and put in their "reason for leaving" note that they dont like the changes to the stacks.

Let those handful of teams that cried about it being too easy enjoy their moment of awesomeness. After seing some of their behaviour I don't really feel the need to to give them more oportunities for their comments any more by asking for some reason.

I think the only way they will even consider putting the stacks back on is if enough people leave and put in their "reason for leaving" note that they dont like the changes to the stacks.

Let those handful of teams that cried about it being too easy enjoy their moment of awesomeness. After seing some of their behaviour I don't really feel the need to to give them more oportunities for their comments any more by asking for some reason.

 

They're alienating ppl with their elitism just so they feel special about 5+ year old content. And then they complain that there isn't any players to pug with anything decent. Instead doing something to help out starting out raiders expanding the community.

I'm sorry but if you feel that with the stacks the content was challenging or even considering that the healing/dps check was high? Then you are clearly not ready for nim/mm content. With the stacks it is not a nim/mm operation anymore, not even close.

People have been so spoiled with being overgeared like crazy for what the content is actually tuned to, for a long time so welcome to nightmare mode. (simply not for everyone).

The stacks need to remain gone to represent what it is supposed to be. A Nightmare/Master Mode operation.

Personally I think they should make the stacks optional, and make extra achievements for clearing without VE. But that’s my opinion. Edited February 15, 2020 by vampirecookies

And how many of them are actually doing NIM progression here in 6.0/6.1?!? Why is BW listening to people who don't even play this content, as opposed to the people who do?

 

There is a nice website called twitch where you can see people play, just go there once in a while and see what raids these people do. You will be surprised. I would rather say that these people ran the new ops just a few times until they beaten it and then felt no reason to play it again and went back to playing old stuff.

I 100% agree. We do not have enough raiders left in the community to justify further limiting content to an even smaller subset of people.

 

I’ve had numerous groups fold since 6.0 due to inactivity. Most of the raiding discords on my server (SS) are completely dead.

 

It’s hard enough to find people for raid groups/subs now. Further limiting NiM content to just a select few is a terrible idea (especially given that hm is faceroll). If we had a population that was 10x what we currently had on this game, I think my opinion would be much different.

 

The devs need to stop exclusively listening to people from Failure, Better Now, etc. These guys are great, but they really don’t necessarily represent a majority of the subscribers.

Edited February 15, 2020 by AwesomeTacoCat

I The devs need to stop exclusively listening to people from Failure, Better Now, etc. These guys are great, but they really don’t necessarily represent a majority of the subscribers.

 

Why they are the people the content is designed for and to listen to those guilds is the best thing I'm sorry but that's the only way to get super good feedback on the highest level of game play in SWTOR and not from someone who can't do the content or complain that it's to hard.

I'm sorry but if you feel that with the stacks the content was challenging or even considering that the healing/dps check was high? Then you are clearly not ready for nim/mm content. With the stacks it is not a nim/mm operation anymore, not even close.

People have been so spoiled with being overgeared like crazy for what the content is actually tuned to, for a long time so welcome to nightmare mode. (simply not for everyone).

The stacks need to remain gone to represent what it is supposed to be. A Nightmare/Master Mode operation.

 

OK there, Mr. Elitist D-Bag. Most of the raiders on my team have been raiding since 1.0 or 2.0. They did the content back then, same as you, but often ended up being unable to complete content due to 1-2 crappier/mediocre players on the team. Those crappy/mediocre players have since been replaced, and we've been doing pretty good, but again there are some of us that are new to NIM, and of course there's the issue of team coordination. We've actually made great strides on both of those two things, and as I've said, have been getting closer and closer in our progression. Our DPS isn't the problem, but the massive heals check on the Dread Guard fight was holding us back.

 

Also, saying we're voer-geared/over-powered, when our stats are being arbitrarily lowered, with no control over things like power and mastery, I'd say you're full of crap. "Back in your day" your stats mattered and you had control over it, we don't have that now.

OK there, Mr. Elitist D-Bag. Most of the raiders on my team have been raiding since 1.0 or 2.0. They did the content back then, same as you, but often ended up being unable to complete content due to 1-2 crappier/mediocre players on the team. Those crappy/mediocre players have since been replaced, and we've been doing pretty good, but again there are some of us that are new to NIM, and of course there's the issue of team coordination. We've actually made great strides on both of those two things, and as I've said, have been getting closer and closer in our progression. Our DPS isn't the problem, but the massive heals check on the Dread Guard fight was holding us back.

 

Also, saying we're voer-geared/over-powered, when our stats are being arbitrarily lowered, with no control over things like power and mastery, I'd say you're full of crap. "Back in your day" your stats mattered and you had control over it, we don't have that now.

 

 

Check logs see what’s happening. Are you failing the heal check or are you taking too much damage due to lower dps casing phases to last longer, tanks cleaving each other, improper use of dcds, etc... You’ll find much work for improvement by doing that and going from there.

OK there, Mr. Elitist D-Bag. Most of the raiders on my team have been raiding since 1.0 or 2.0. They did the content back then, same as you, but often ended up being unable to complete content due to 1-2 crappier/mediocre players on the team. Those crappy/mediocre players have since been replaced, and we've been doing pretty good, but again there are some of us that are new to NIM, and of course there's the issue of team coordination. We've actually made great strides on both of those two things, and as I've said, have been getting closer and closer in our progression. Our DPS isn't the problem, but the massive heals check on the Dread Guard fight was holding us back.

 

Also, saying we're voer-geared/over-powered, when our stats are being arbitrarily lowered, with no control over things like power and mastery, I'd say you're full of crap. "Back in your day" your stats mattered and you had control over it, we don't have that now.

 

Since 5.2 was released with 248 gear(18april 2017) you have been overgeared for nim content, which have been drastically increased with new augments & even higher tier of gear along the way up to 258 gear.

In 6.0 this changed to stacks boosting you instead of stats on gear except for tertiary stats.

30 stacks of veteran edge represent more or less the same difficulty as 258 gear did if not even making it easier than 258 made it, regardless with 30 stacks or 258 gear you could literally solo heal the majority of the fights, dread guards being one of those & if you did struggle with 30 stacks then again you are not ready for that kind of content.

Also what FerkWork is saying, check logs to see what is going on. It is up for everyone to do their part to minimize the incoming avoidable or unavoidable dmg.

It is a team game after all

Elitists complaining about too hard? But when we suggest that story mode be made viable for leveling pugs, they come here and say /no.

Since 5.2 was released with 248 gear(18april 2017) you have been overgeared for nim content, which have been drastically increased with new augments & even higher tier of gear along the way up to 258 gear.

In 6.0 this changed to stacks boosting you instead of stats on gear except for tertiary stats.

30 stacks of veteran edge represent more or less the same difficulty as 258 gear did if not even making it easier than 258 made it, regardless with 30 stacks or 258 gear you could literally solo heal the majority of the fights, dread guards being one of those & if you did struggle with 30 stacks then again you are not ready for that kind of content.

Also what FerkWork is saying, check logs to see what is going on. It is up for everyone to do their part to minimize the incoming avoidable or unavoidable dmg.

It is a team game after all

 

Everyone loves to say that 248 gear was overgeared for nim but everyone loves to conveniently forget that when 5.0 dropped Shadow dps and tanks had double stance bug allowing shadow dps to parse nearly 12k dps and tanks to take literally no damage at all due to having like 80% shield, so yea nim in 242 was doable because of things like that, when they fixed that, and nerfed a lot of other DPS specs, nim was doable but it was very very hard, and so they released 248s and 236 augs to compensate for the dps nerfs. Then they nerfed everything again when 252 and 258 came out, so I would say 258s was slightly overgeared for NIMs, but not drastically.

 

Either way, I was clearing nim in 2.0, 3.0, 4.0, 5.0 in 240s, 242s, 248s, 252s, 258s, and now all of a sudden I am big struggling to clear stuff, it should be harder then it was but not THIS hard its dumb right now how hard some of the checks are.

Everyone loves to say that 248 gear was overgeared for nim but everyone loves to conveniently forget that when 5.0 dropped Shadow dps and tanks had double stance bug allowing shadow dps to parse nearly 12k dps and tanks to take literally no damage at all due to having like 80% shield, so yea nim in 242 was doable because of things like that, when they fixed that, and nerfed a lot of other DPS specs, nim was doable but it was very very hard, and so they released 248s and 236 augs to compensate for the dps nerfs. Then they nerfed everything again when 252 and 258 came out, so I would say 258s was slightly overgeared for NIMs, but not drastically.

 

Either way, I was clearing nim in 2.0, 3.0, 4.0, 5.0 in 240s, 242s, 248s, 252s, 258s, and now all of a sudden I am big struggling to clear stuff, it should be harder then it was but not THIS hard its dumb right now how hard some of the checks are.

 

It’s still easier than doing it in 230 gear after the stances were fixed. If that’s the case then that’s perplexing to be struggling now if what you say is true. Like I said to the other person, check your logs and see where the problem and breakdown is occurring and take steps to correct it. If a group does that it may take a bit to put it back on farm but you will if you are good enough. I mostly play WoW now and killing current content may take a bit till it’s on farm granted if BW has Blizzard level resources it would have been hot fixed the day of but still no one would take a serious request as made here to make Mythic tuned to Heroic.

Edited February 16, 2020 by FerkWork

Everyone loves to say that 248 gear was overgeared for nim but everyone loves to conveniently forget that when 5.0 dropped Shadow dps and tanks had double stance bug allowing shadow dps to parse nearly 12k dps and tanks to take literally no damage at all due to having like 80% shield, so yea nim in 242 was doable because of things like that, when they fixed that, and nerfed a lot of other DPS specs, nim was doable but it was very very hard, and so they released 248s and 236 augs to compensate for the dps nerfs. Then they nerfed everything again when 252 and 258 came out, so I would say 258s was slightly overgeared for NIMs, but not drastically.

 

Either way, I was clearing nim in 2.0, 3.0, 4.0, 5.0 in 240s, 242s, 248s, 252s, 258s, and now all of a sudden I am big struggling to clear stuff, it should be harder then it was but not THIS hard its dumb right now how hard some of the checks are.

 

248 was overgeared even if you don't want to believe that regardless of certain class changes &.people also cleared things without abusing certain bugs etc so just because a few things were bugged doesn't mean the bugs were required to clear the operations with ease.

Calling 258 slightly overgeared for Nim? You have to be trolling, wiping in old nims with that kind of gear was considered a massive embarrassment 258 gear more or less resemble actually using a nightmare crystal & so did 30 Veteran Edge Stacks.

 

Even if you actually claim to have cleared it in X.0 & not to be rude but if you see the operations as you do then you have a lot to work on to improve, specially if u have been playing for that long, the operations have not been challenging since 242 gear even with all the class changes.

 

People are still pugging Old Nims without 30 stacks & clearing it with timed runs without problems?

There were even a few runs yday with full clears in a pug grp & there is streams on twitch to show it.

A few teams have also already been clearing old nims without stacks & that is only a few days after they were removed? Same goes for Gods Nim with no stacks, it have also already been cleared.

 

These changes just show that again nim is not for everyone, nim have been a massive joke for years & now when it finally becomes more challenging people start to cry extremely loudly about it.

 

Thanks Bioware for actually making Nightmare Operations for what they are supposed to be, no more faceroll.

Edited February 16, 2020 by dready_tv

Nim becoming more challenging after years of it being easier is not an issue with new content as you are not taking anything away from anyone.

 

However it is an issue with old content as there are groups that can no longer clear old operations that they were already clearing while having fun progging content that had added mechanics and was more challenging than hm. It is not a proper way to address the lack of new content.

 

It's a bit as if someone decided that marathons are now 60km instead of 42 and they were telling runners unable to complete 60, well now you have to stick to just the old half marathon of 23 kms....it's a not a very ice way to treat customers. The solution is what they did with racing: add extra distances but don't move the goal from pre-existing content.

 

Make stacks optional and just add an extra-tier or a special achievement and added loot for clearing old ops with no stacks. Ultra hardcore groups can now have their challenge while others can still enjoy the ops that they were already doing with the hope of eventually doing it with no stacks. You add an extra possibility for all players instead of removing something from some to give it only to a few.

Edited February 16, 2020 by Eriamea

What happens is that they will clear the content in a week and go do something else and in the mean time complain about of lack of content / challenge. And the devs listen to them, change the game and the rest that keep the game alive are stuck with the consequences. Frankly, it saddens me that there is a gap between the haves and have nots in this game and the arbitrary line that divides the ppl. Why is there such favouritism? Why does the vocal minority dictate the game? This change affected everyone, why not be transparent?

 

That's pretty spot on about using up the content super fast and then being the first to complain. Those were the same people who ran FP's non stop to gear up their toons week 1 of 6.0 in 302's. However, if you think this game disparages between Star Bellied Sneetches and those without then you need to play Destiny 2 or the Division 2.

248 was overgeared even if you don't want to believe that regardless of certain class changes &.people also cleared things without abusing certain bugs etc so just because a few things were bugged doesn't mean the bugs were required to clear the operations with ease.

Calling 258 slightly overgeared for Nim? You have to be trolling, wiping in old nims with that kind of gear was considered a massive embarrassment 258 gear more or less resemble actually using a nightmare crystal & so did 30 Veteran Edge Stacks.

 

Even if you actually claim to have cleared it in X.0 & not to be rude but if you see the operations as you do then you have a lot to work on to improve, specially if u have been playing for that long, the operations have not been challenging since 242 gear even with all the class changes.

 

People are still pugging Old Nims without 30 stacks & clearing it with timed runs without problems?

There were even a few runs yday with full clears in a pug grp & there is streams on twitch to show it.

A few teams have also already been clearing old nims without stacks & that is only a few days after they were removed? Same goes for Gods Nim with no stacks, it have also already been cleared.

 

These changes just show that again nim is not for everyone, nim have been a massive joke for years & now when it finally becomes more challenging people start to cry extremely loudly about it.

 

Thanks Bioware for actually making Nightmare Operations for what they are supposed to be, no more faceroll.

 

It's always interesting to read things like this, after watching SM ops groups requiring NiM gear. What was the minimum gear score you're group allowed? Was it the max gear possible, in every iteration, or were you downgrading to run it? My bet: Max level of gear possible, or they weren't welcome, so you could come post on the forums about how "easy" it was in that max gear. Don't get me wrong, if you have the max gear possible, you should definitely be using it, but it's more than a bit hypocritical to then come back and say "well, you're already over geared" when you wouldn't have dreamed of running in anything but max gear.

Apart from the real issue being new operations coming very slow in this game, this change just was made the wrong way.

 

All these NIMs that lost their stacks now are years old content. It was re-scaled again and again, new class abilities screwed them up quite a lot, forced changes that at times broke the bosses in some other way then until they were fixed, for potentially the next batch of new skills or general changes to the game messed the next thing up (just look at Master Blaster over its iterations).

While personally I couldn't care less for stacks or no stacks there, having lost what medium interest I had in NIM a while ago, I find it funny to read about 'proper challenges' and 'getting gud', when a lot of those calling themselves NIMraiders, are those that know the most about how to avoid having to play mechanics by stacking certain (FOTM)classes and using all the abilities (reflects, stealth out and what else not) and glitches that trivialize the encounters compared to their initial release. Just think of Asation 2. boss, who really does play without cheesing doom there these days and still deals with the red puddles in the last part of the encounter as was intended at release?

So while I do have respect for those going into Gods and Dxun, figuring out their way through there on their own, showing what great players they are, seriously, someone knowing all ins and outs of the old NIMs and doing them for years saying, great that an almost a decade old operation finally is a challenge again is ridiculous.

 

Was it too easy with the stacks, I don't know but generally agree that there should have been an adjustment if it was. But the way this huge change was made now and where the idea is rumored to come from is total crap.

 

First of all it should have been communicated openly beforehand combined with mapping out a clear vision of how the difficulty over the different modes/operations/bosses should increase and how much influence the class setup or all those cheesing abilities should really have there. Then all modes should have been brought in line according to that vision. (And kept in line with future updates too.)

Because as it is, there were often too many inconsistencies in difficulty even in one and the same operation that at times changed with this or that update.

Since the changes from 4.0 there was a pretty big gap from the too easy SM that got all important mechanics taken out to any HC outside EV and KP. SM not really preparing for it at all. From my experience even with stacks now a lot of SM groups are not able to transition into HC, because it still doesn't prepare for what is needed there. Gear/stacks never really were the problem in the first place but to learn how to deal with mechanics and SM no longer teaches that at all, even less with over-gearing or stacks. It used to be, non deadly but there in SM, punishing in HC and really punishing + combined with additional stuff in NIM.

At the same time HC with stacks, with the exception of the few really mechanic heavy bosses and Gods/Dxun, is now also rather easy for those that were the target audience of it before and the capped stats causing people stuffing everything in alacrity and crit does the rest for screwing up the dps numbers. With stacks they had NIM to look forward next, without they have nothing now because the gap between stacks in HC and no stacks in NIM now is much bigger than SM to HC was until 6.0 or old HC to NIM was at any time.

 

So why is everything else of the old stuff made easier and easier but years old NIM suddenly out of the blue is made harder? That's simply not healthy for the raiding population as a whole.

Make NIM more challenging than with 30stack if you want and must, but make sure there is a steady way of progression through all the various modes and operations, not a brick wall out of nowhere.

People are still pugging Old Nims without 30 stacks & clearing it with timed runs without problems?

There were even a few runs yday with full clears in a pug grp & there is streams on twitch to show it.

A few teams have also already been clearing old nims without stacks & that is only a few days after they were removed? Same goes for Gods Nim with no stacks, it have also already been cleared.

 

Do you have any links for that?

 

I would love to watch them, because I think that would add a lot to the discussion.

I would rather say that these people ran the new ops just a few times until they beaten it and then felt no reason to play it again and went back to playing old stuff.

 

And why would that be? Why run old content instead of new? Is it because the new OPs aren't as much fun? Or is it that it is easier to do the things you already did a thousand times? (And then complain that it is too easy?)

 

Who asked for this, anyways? Who was demanding DPS, Heals, and Tank health be nerfed for the hardest content in the game? I haven't seen anyone asking for this.

 

You probably haven't seen anyone asking, because it happened in a closed, secret PTS phase. Who was invited to that? Who knows. Probably Failure and similar 1337 folks.

As an aside to something posted above, it never ceases to amaze me how we, as gamers, spend hours getting all the best gear, and maximizing our stats in order to make the game easier, and then how some of us, once they're successful at it, complain that it's too easy. That was the whole point of gearing up, wasn't it, to trivialize the content? It's not a unique situation here either, I'd imagine that if one were to hit x game's forums, where x is a number, the vast majority of games older than 3 or 4 years will have similar thought processes. I know I've seen it repeatedly over the years. I'm not sure what the problem is, let alone a solution, I mean, for all intents and purposes, once we've geared up enough that the game's not hard, we won, right?