•Infiltration Tactics/Duplicity: Now when triggered, your next Shadow Strike/Maul deals 30% more damage and costs 75% less Force. This cannot occur more than once every 15 seconds, but each rank after the first reduces this rate limit by 3 seconds. Based on how I worked the numbers, this should actually be decent buff for Maul damage wise, even without armor penetration. However, this can still only be used on a limitied basis as overall you'd need all 3 points to use a proc'd Maul every 9 seconds. Some hybrid specs probably won't benefit much from this.

Your math is a bit off my friend. 3 second reduction per point spent in Duplicity will make it on a 6 second cooldown. Sexssy time. This is going to be huge for us Deception Assassins to do some nice sustained dps during raids. I also second what Werdan was saying about the 25%/50%/75% cost per point. Makes me wonder if it will be 15%/30%50% per point on the bonus damage as well.

For those of you hoping that the 50% armor debuff will still apply, simadown! If it was still part of the Duplicity talent then the term "Additionally" would have been used. If you notice all of the changes that just added something to the existing talent used that term, the talents that were completely revamped did not.

Your math is a bit off my friend. 3 second reduction per point spent in Duplicity will make it on a 6 second cooldown.

 

Incorrect. The new description states that

each rank after the first reduces this rate limit by 3 seconds.

So it'll still be on a 9-second internal cooldown.

Incorrect. The new description states that

 

So it'll still be on a 9-second internal cooldown.

 

Yeah I just caught this myself, was racing back to this page to delete my post but you beat me, lol. I must have read the changes with hungry eyes.

so these changes are really nice for pve, i guess. for pvp, what are we supposed to use in between shocks? if we don't NEED to use VS, then what move? use crushing darkness? hope for maul procs? pray that we have 5 stacks of static charge to use discharge?

 

as it is now, its VS x2 then shock. VS x2 then some other move (maul, discharge, saber strike, low strike) then shock. then another VS x2 and some other move again (one of the moves submitted prior that is off cd).

 

now that we don't need to use VS twice at all times before using shock, what to use? i'm going to try and figure this out when its put on the PTR, but for now, i can't see just using saber strike. it'll still be beneficial to use VS x2 since it'll do more damage. and regardless of the buffs to our survivability, we're still going to be squishiest class out there. so when other classes see the yoyo, they're going to target us so we don't get our burst off on their healers.

Edited September 6, 2012 by Soull

Here's the build I've made for 1.4 - 23 11 7

 

Calling it the linebacker build because it's a tank that moves fast. Over on the shadow forums I've gone a bit more in depth about how it will work and what the rotations will look like.

 

Here's the thread

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=529093

Here's the build I've made for 1.4 - 23 11 7

 

Calling it the linebacker build because it's a tank that moves fast. Over on the shadow forums I've gone a bit more in depth about how it will work and what the rotations will look like.

 

Here's the thread

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=529093

 

Yeah I am not gonna get to worked up on builds (though I am thinking deception/madness) until I see the new skill trees and full patch notes. Though I am curious to see what will happen if you can spec into the 5 second force speed as I just cannot see them letting that go to live but we shall see.

so these changes are really nice for pve, i guess. for pvp, what are we supposed to use in between shocks? if we don't NEED to use VS, then what move? use crushing darkness? hope for maul procs? pray that we have 5 stacks of static charge to use discharge?

 

as it is now, its VS x2 then shock. VS x2 then some other move (maul, discharge, saber strike, low strike) then shock. then another VS x2 and some other move again (one of the moves submitted prior that is off cd).

 

now that we don't need to use VS twice at all times before using shock, what to use? i'm going to try and figure this out when its put on the PTR, but for now, i can't see just using saber strike. it'll still be beneficial to use VS x2 since it'll do more damage. and regardless of the buffs to our survivability, we're still going to be squishiest class out there. so when other classes see the yoyo, they're going to target us so we don't get our burst off on their healers.

 

I'm not an expert on deception but I think the idea was to improve sustained dps without giving crazy burst. You can still do the old 2xVS + shock or you can trade some VS for saber strike in order to get more force for shock, maul, and discharge. I think this will greatly improve dps after the first ~15 seconds out of stealth regardless of rotation and a smaller boost inside the first 15 seconds. It also improves execute sustained dps *and* burst.

 

If I'm reading the notes correctly, deception also gets 25% damage reduction for 6 seconds after losing stealth, and at any time when using blackout. This is a really good effect, especially with blackout always being ready when coming out of stealth. I am actually wondering if this might be a good pickup for darkness tanks. You lose wither, chain shock, and melee crit for a 25% DR on a minute cooldown + some force regen. It could be quite powerful if a fight has ~1 min periodic burst damage phases.

so these changes are really nice for pve, i guess. for pvp, what are we supposed to use in between shocks? if we don't NEED to use VS, then what move? use crushing darkness? hope for maul procs? pray that we have 5 stacks of static charge to use discharge?

 

as it is now, its VS x2 then shock. VS x2 then some other move (maul, discharge, saber strike, low strike) then shock. then another VS x2 and some other move again (one of the moves submitted prior that is off cd).

 

now that we don't need to use VS twice at all times before using shock, what to use? i'm going to try and figure this out when its put on the PTR, but for now, i can't see just using saber strike. it'll still be beneficial to use VS x2 since it'll do more damage. and regardless of the buffs to our survivability, we're still going to be squishiest class out there. so when other classes see the yoyo, they're going to target us so we don't get our burst off on their healers.

 

If I'm reading the patch notes right, it's only the damage buff from Voltaic Slash that won't be removed. You'll still need to VS between shocks to build stacks of Induction (unless you want to be spending 50 force on every shock). Basically, the benefit of the damage buff sticking just means that when our target is below 30% health, we can VS once and Assassinate once to build the two induction stacks in between shocks and not have to worry about cramming a second VS in there for the damage buff. Just makes the execute rotation smoother and more force-efficient, while the rest of the fight will remain largely unchanged.

If I'm reading the patch notes right, it's only the damage buff from Voltaic Slash that won't be removed. You'll still need to VS between shocks to build stacks of Induction (unless you want to be spending 50 force on every shock). Basically, the benefit of the damage buff sticking just means that when our target is below 30% health, we can VS once and Assassinate once to build the two induction stacks in between shocks and not have to worry about cramming a second VS in there for the damage buff. Just makes the execute rotation smoother and more force-efficient, while the rest of the fight will remain largely unchanged.

 

Yeah this looks correct. So it's really only the execution phase that benefits from this change. I am now worried that the changes won't be enough to bring deception up to par dps-wise in PvP or PvE.

Yeah this looks correct. So it's really only the execution phase that benefits from this change. I am now worried that the changes won't be enough to bring deception up to par dps-wise in PvP or PvE.

 

I think the increased uptime of Dark Embrace allowed by the reduced cooldown on Force Cloak and exiting stealth finishing the cooldown on Blackout is going to be a huge DPS boost. Better force regen = less time spent saber striking = more time spent actually doing damage. Reduced force cost of Maul is just gravy.

Yeah I am not gonna get to worked up on builds (though I am thinking deception/madness) until I see the new skill trees and full patch notes. Though I am curious to see what will happen if you can spec into the 5 second force speed as I just cannot see them letting that go to live but we shall see.

 

I just hope bioware gives a week at least on live. Then they can nerf us as hard as they want because I will have already made every powertech on my server quit the game.

If I'm reading the patch notes right, it's only the damage buff from Voltaic Slash that won't be removed. You'll still need to VS between shocks to build stacks of Induction (unless you want to be spending 50 force on every shock). Basically, the benefit of the damage buff sticking just means that when our target is below 30% health, we can VS once and Assassinate once to build the two induction stacks in between shocks and not have to worry about cramming a second VS in there for the damage buff. Just makes the execute rotation smoother and more force-efficient, while the rest of the fight will remain largely unchanged.

 

Basically this. The damage buff should almost always be up (as long as you use VS before the buff ends) but we'd now have a few more options (what few there are) to use between Shocks.

 

-VS is better than Thrash with the decent damage increase. Force cost is the same but damage per force point is higher.

 

-Lacerate is kinda meh and best used in a pack. I never picked up Resourcefulness and depending on how the trees pan out it may or may not be an option. Damage per force point is way too low when hitting a single target and you really do need to use this on at least 3 targets to even compete with either VS or Thrash.

 

-Force Lightning is nowhere near as good as the Darkness version. 2 Thrashes are actually better than FL with the exception of when FL is used with Recklesness.

 

-Crushing Darkness....lol nevermind, I shouldn't even bring that up as Deception spec.

 

-Force Slow does ok damage but lags behind Thrash in damage per force point but way better than Lacerate against a single target.

 

-Low Slash should be situational but still better than using Lacerate on 2 targets. Spike can only be used from stealth but both are more controlling attacks than anything else. Again, both are situational.

 

-The new Maul will mostly be used when it procs but the damage increase should be second to only Assassinate but have a much better damage per force ratio. Without a proc it could be slightly worse than Thrash unless it crits in which case it's much better. Maul proc +crit should be our most damaging attack.

 

-Assassinate has the best damage and second in damage per force only to a Maul proc and situational as well.

 

-Shock and Discharge should be essential in the rotation and only used when there's full stacks on all the buffs (Induction x 2 + VS x 2 and Static Charges x 5 respectively).

 

That leaves Saber Strike which is our filler. In short, even though we'll have some options (most situational), Voltaic Slash will still have more bang for the buck. I hate to say it but VS is our version of the old Tracer Missile. That said, I'm looking forward to testing the changes on PTS.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Werdan

-The new Maul will mostly be used when it procs but the damage increase should be second to only Assassinate but have a much better damage per force ratio. Without a proc it could be slightly worse than Thrash unless it crits in which case it's much better. Maul proc +crit should be our most damaging attack.

 

-Assassinate has the best damage and second in damage per force only to a Maul proc and situational as well.

Just crunched some numbers, as of right now my Maul tool tip is exactly 25% damage less than my Assassinate ability. In 1.4 an Exploit Weakness proc is going to be increase by 30% damage which will be 5% more damage than Assassinate. This is also not considering Induction which Assassinate does not benefit from so that is even more damage that Maul will be doing on an Exploit Weakness proc.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Xethis

Here's the build I've made for 1.4 - 23 11 7

 

Calling it the linebacker build because it's a tank that moves fast. Over on the shadow forums I've gone a bit more in depth about how it will work and what the rotations will look like.

 

Here's the thread

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=529093

 

All day at work today I was theory crafting on the best spec and what tree actually benefits the most from the upcoming changes. Since the strongest changes are low tier talents out of the Deception tree I really feel there are a couple hybrid specs that might benefit more than a full Deception Assassin. Deception will have better synergy during the execute phase which is a really nice upgrade for pvp and pve, but I really dont think it will be enough to overcome the other two trees. For pve a full Madness spec will still do more damage and have more survivability through heals, and for pvp a Darkness build will still have outstanding survivability with descent damage.

 

The two hybrid specs that I feel are going to shine are the Dark Maul (23-15-3) and the Mad Maul (0-14-27). Granted Dark Maul is barely viable as it is, sometimes you have amazing burst, and sometimes you have no force to do anything. But with how hard the new Maul is going to hit and the reduced force cost is going to help this spec out a lot. On top of that coming out of stealth will reset Black Out so Force Cloak after your first Black Out, then you can do it all over again for 24 seconds of insane force regen. That is like 12-16 Maul attacks.

 

The Mad Maul is also going to benefit from the harder hitting Maul procs as well as some Thrash/Raze spam, which probably going to still be our best damage. The one thing that the Mad Maul spec needed was some damn survivability and the new Darkswell talent is going to give 12 sec of staying power to this spec. Not to mention using Force Cloak and starting the 12 seconds of 25% increased damage reduction all over again. And follow that with Force Shroud and Deflection, That is almost 40sec of great survivability. Plenty of time to get the crit train rolling.

 

IMHO the new Duplicity and Darkswell talents are going to be a must have for any pvp specs out there. They are way too strong to pass up. I would not be surprised if they did not make it out of ptr as is.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Xethis

I must say that im rather disapointed in these changes to be honest. Not in the canges themself, there rather good, but that they are purley for PvP. Non of the changes are aimed at PvE. Im not playing PvP, so i dont care abaout that. But these changes wont make any difference whatsovewer to PvE players, A bit more dps, perhaps, run a little faster etc, but that is not where our problem lies, we still have absolutley nothing to offer an Operation group, there is no reason whatsoever to pick a deception assassin over anyother class in an operation. We needed something to bring to the table, and we got nothing.

I must say that im rather disapointed in these changes to be honest. Not in the canges themself, there rather good, but that they are purley for PvP. Non of the changes are aimed at PvE. Im not playing PvP, so i dont care abaout that. But these changes wont make any difference whatsovewer to PvE players, A bit more dps, perhaps, run a little faster etc, but that is not where our problem lies, we still have absolutley nothing to offer an Operation group, there is no reason whatsoever to pick a deception assassin over anyother class in an operation. We needed something to bring to the table, and we got nothing.

 

The new Duplicity will help with dps but it wont be huge, your right. Our execute phase will be smother, but again not a huge upgrade in dps. It is quite obvious that Deception is supposed to be for pvp, Madness is our pve damage and Darkness is our pve tank spec. Most Madness Assassins do fine in raids. Where our class was weakest was the Deception tree which is for pvp, so that's why you see the pvp upgrades for survivability and a bit more burst.

Just crunched some numbers, as of right now my Maul tool tip is exactly 25% damage less than my Assassinate ability. In 1.4 an Exploit Weakness proc is going to be increase by 30% damage which will be 5% more damage than Assassinate. This is also not considering Induction which Assassinate does not benefit from so that is even more damage that Maul will be doing on an Exploit Weakness proc.

 

Odd as my Maul is roughly a little over 30% less than Assassinate. I don't remember exact stats but I'm running around 1650 WP and 825-850 power.

 

Maul 2351-2659

Assassinate 3067-3469

 

Post 1.4 the damage will be very similar (within 11 damage on both the low and high end). Of course crits will be much better as I stated in another post.

 

 

All day at work today I was theory crafting on the best spec and what tree actually benefits the most from the upcoming changes. Since the strongest changes are low tier talents out of the Deception tree I really feel there are a couple hybrid specs that might benefit more than a full Deception Assassin. Deception will have better synergy during the execute phase which is a really nice upgrade for pvp and pve, but I really dont think it will be enough to overcome the other two trees. For pve a full Madness spec will still do more damage and have more survivability through heals, and for pvp a Darkness build will still have outstanding survivability with descent damage.

 

-snip-

 

IMHO the new Duplicity and Darkswell talents are going to be a must have for any pvp specs out there. They are way too strong to pass up. I would not be surprised if they did not make it out of ptr as is.

 

I won't get into builds just yet until we have a clearer picture of what ALL the changes are. However based on how the other 2 trees are set up NOW, hybrids could be very strong contenders. Just looking at a before and after (on paper) for a full 31 point Deception, 1.4 looks like a definite improvement.

 

As far as some of these not making it out of PTS, it's a little early to think that way until we see all the changes and how the trees are set up. Darkswell, if left where it is now, is actually too low in the tree. I can see Darkness spec dropping a few points just to pick this up. It wouldn't surprise me to see this moved up a tier or 2. I think it's fair to say that there will be a shift from them dropping points from Madness to pick up Duplicity as well. An easy fix for this could be to make both require Surging Charge active. Additionally I'd like to see Duplicity changed somewhat so that players are almost forced to put 3 points into it. An example of this would be to make the first point give a 10% chance to proc with a 10% damage boost, the second point 20% chance with 20% damage boost and 3s cd reduction, and third point 30% chance with 30% boost and an extra 3s reduction. The way it's worded now makes it seem as if that 30% damage boost is in the first point which makes it an easy 1 point pickup for other 31 point specs.

All day at work today I was theory crafting on the best spec and what tree actually benefits the most from the upcoming changes. Since the strongest changes are low tier talents out of the Deception tree I really feel there are a couple hybrid specs that might benefit more than a full Deception Assassin. Deception will have better synergy during the execute phase which is a really nice upgrade for pvp and pve, but I really dont think it will be enough to overcome the other two trees. For pve a full Madness spec will still do more damage and have more survivability through heals, and for pvp a Darkness build will still have outstanding survivability with descent damage.

 

The two hybrid specs that I feel are going to shine are the Dark Maul (23-15-3) and the Mad Maul (0-14-27). Granted Dark Maul is barely viable as it is, sometimes you have amazing burst, and sometimes you have no force to do anything. But with how hard the new Maul is going to hit and the reduced force cost is going to help this spec out a lot. On top of that coming out of stealth will reset Black Out so Force Cloak after your first Black Out, then you can do it all over again for 24 seconds of insane force regen. That is like 12-16 Maul attacks.

 

The Mad Maul is also going to benefit from the harder hitting Maul procs as well as some Thrash/Raze spam, which probably going to still be our best damage. The one thing that the Mad Maul spec needed was some damn survivability and the new Darkswell talent is going to give 12 sec of staying power to this spec. Not to mention using Force Cloak and starting the 12 seconds of 25% increased damage reduction all over again. And follow that with Force Shroud and Deflection, That is almost 40sec of great survivability. Plenty of time to get the crit train rolling.

 

IMHO the new Duplicity and Darkswell talents are going to be a must have for any pvp specs out there. They are way too strong to pass up. I would not be surprised if they did not make it out of ptr as is.

 

I've seen similar suggestions, but it's pretty apparent to me that anything past 12 points is wasted in deception because you'll have to put points on surging charge. Force Cloak breaks way too easy to waste those kinds of points on fade. I think it's better to take advantage of the fact the cooldown is dropping for everyone and be happy with 2 minutes.

 

Chain Shock is really your bread and butter talent since it's actually providing more of an increase to your DPS than duplicity is. A third of this builds rotation is shock, and with chain shock it could be well over half of your overall damage.

 

I'm geared with a rakata force mystic set effect (+50 force, dunno if imps call it force mystic or not) and running 27 0 14 right now, so my rotation is heavily dependent on autocrit projects to proc harnessed shadows. With this set effect I don't even watch my force bar and I can guarantee that in 1.4 I will never run out of force again.

Edited September 8, 2012 by Order-Sixty-Six

Sorry Werdan, this is the second time in this thread I have tried correcting you and I was in the wrong. I ran my numbers again, my Assassinate is about 30% more than my Maul. I am half way correct though, Assassinate does not benefit from Induction so on a Exploit Weakness proc Maul will be hands down better than Assassinate with it critting harder and half the force cost. Edited September 8, 2012 by Xethis

I've seen similar suggestions, but it's pretty apparent to me that anything past 12 points is wasted in deception because you'll have to put points on surging charge. Force Cloak breaks way too easy to waste those kinds of points on fade. I think it's better to take advantage of the fact the cooldown is dropping for everyone and be happy with 2 minutes.

 

Chain Shock is really your bread and butter talent since it's actually providing more of an increase to your DPS than duplicity is. A third of this builds rotation is shock, and with chain shock it could be well over half of your overall damage.

 

I'm geared with a rakata force mystic set effect (+50 force, dunno if imps call it force mystic or not) and running 27 0 14 right now, so my rotation is heavily dependent on autocrit projects to proc harnessed shadows. With this set effect I don't even watch my force bar and I can guarantee that in 1.4 I will never run out of force again.

 

Yes you do have to take a talent that you will never use just to get to Induction. But Induction only costs 2 points and you only have to waste one. The way I look at it, if Induction was a 3 pnt talent that offered 30% more crit to Maul I would still feel that it was worth it. At 1.4 spending the extra point to get Induction will be even more valuable because Maul will be doing 30% more damage on an Exploit Weakness proc. 30% extra crit damage on top of 30% more overall damage to Maul will be our new hardest hitting attack. Technically there is a point wasted, but it is well worth it.

 

Again you are correct in the Force Shroud breaking easily. Takes several other abilities (Overload..etc.) to get it to work correctly, however in 1.4 when you come out of stealth you will not only have the increased force regen but 25% more damage mitigation. I am pretty sure I will be using Force Shroud offensively.

I've seen similar suggestions, but it's pretty apparent to me that anything past 12 points is wasted in deception because you'll have to put points on surging charge. Force Cloak breaks way too easy to waste those kinds of points on fade. I think it's better to take advantage of the fact the cooldown is dropping for everyone and be happy with 2 minutes.

 

Chain Shock is really your bread and butter talent since it's actually providing more of an increase to your DPS than duplicity is. A third of this builds rotation is shock, and with chain shock it could be well over half of your overall damage.

 

I'm geared with a rakata force mystic set effect (+50 force, dunno if imps call it force mystic or not) and running 27 0 14 right now, so my rotation is heavily dependent on autocrit projects to proc harnessed shadows. With this set effect I don't even watch my force bar and I can guarantee that in 1.4 I will never run out of force again.

 

Unfortunately / fortunately, the communicated 1.4 changes are ultimately geared towards Deception Assassins. *If you're running a darkness or madness heavy assassin, you're not going to benefit from many of the balance modifications.

 

The part that cracks me up is deception sins have been screaming for something since release, and NOW they actually take a good look at the class and make some sound steps in the right direction.*

Yeah, I'm super happy with these changes. Given the sorc/sage changes, if I convince myself to resub and stick around, I would do so only to dust off my deception assassin.

Been playing on the ptr today, and I must say that the new overload is 100% win. The animation isn't completely smooth with the ability but it is fast. Huttball will be much more fun for us with the new Overload ability.

I just want to say am i the only one who uses force cloak in PVE? Ive been deception DPS since day one and have no problem putting up numbers comparable to madness or even some of our mauraders we have. I have always used force cloak as a agro dump because im an aggro whore... PLUS it gives you another force regen ability. Everyone says that these changes are for PVP but the fact is now when you come out of stealth your black out cooldown is immediately reset which = even MORE force regen. so you stealth into battle... attack w8 for dark embrace to leave then use blackout...w8 for dark embrace to expire then force cloak (i crit hard so it drops aggro PLUS puts dark embrace up for 3rd straght time) it immediately drops the CD for Blackout so you can use it AGAIN when dark embrace is expired... so that is 6sec X 4 =24 secs of incresed force regen to start the fight...thats amazing you can unload without worry...except for aggro...but every single time force cloak is up use blackout so you you can reset it with force cloak..is has incresed my sustained dps quite a bit... its freakin awesome