This makes me happy.

April fools is not for four months.

Bioware is missing an opportunity. With Rogue One coming out. There is at least a chance of people being irrationally interested in GSF for a little while.

This makes me happy.

 

Not sure where your getting your information, but as far as I know, the last time a dev said anything about GSF it was there isn't enough people playing it for new content.

I suspect the OP is referring to the planned developer live stream for January where they've been promising announcements of new group content. While the conventional wisdom (hope?) is that they mean operations, a more conservative view would be that the developers mean any group content, which would include any pvp. An "overly optimistic" (read: delusional) view would include GSF in any pvp and therefore group content. But, we know from other interviews, cantina Q&A/mingling, and other developer allusions that GSF is not likely to get any updates until interest/participation (read: metrics) blossoms.

But, we know from other interviews, cantina Q&A/mingling, and other developer allusions that GSF is not likely to get any updates until interest/participation (read: metrics) blossoms.

Holy chicken and egg problem Batman!

 

People won't play GSF because it's in dire need of work and content.

Austin won't work on GSF because people aren't playing it.

 

gg

I suspect the OP is referring to the planned developer live stream for January where they've been promising announcements of new group content. While the conventional wisdom (hope?) is that they mean operations, a more conservative view would be that the developers mean any group content, which would include any pvp. An "overly optimistic" (read: delusional) view would include GSF in any pvp and therefore group content. But, we know from other interviews, cantina Q&A/mingling, and other developer allusions that GSF is not likely to get any updates until interest/participation (read: metrics) blossoms.

 

I've given up hope for new Operations (tho I want them badly). They said they'd Discuss 8 man group content. If they were discussing Operations the wording would have been 8/16 man. Or if they were discussing GSF they'd have said 8 or 12 person content. The fact they said 8 person content to me means the new group content is only for ground PvP.

Edited December 14, 2016 by Toraak

Holy chicken and egg problem Batman!

 

People won't play GSF because it's in dire need of work and content.

Austin won't work on GSF because people aren't playing it.

 

gg

 

Here goes the can of worms ...

 

I don't think people avoid GSF because its in dire need of work and content, the way most people 'round here view such things. Veterans who have left the game probably did so because of a lack of content (like new maps or game modes).

 

But, listening to podcasts, and watching general discussion, and even my own guild, I've come to realize that most players in the game avoid GSF because:

1.) Most players in the main game feel that the learning curve, the gearing curve, and (by extension) the matchmaking, are the biggest deterrents.

2.) Many players in the main game would do GSF if it had a PVE mode, but don't want to PVP.

 

Now, experienced helpful veterans in this sub forum can argue point #1 till they are blue in the face (or black, if they are Chiss or Twi'leks). They can post videos of doing well or even topping the scoreboard in stock ships, they can produce helpful guides on how to quickly gear your ships with just a few matches worth of requisition, they can provide pages of evidence of how gunships and bombers have counters that are readily available to even novice pilots.

 

But it won't change the perception that the game is just too hard. One of the most iconic experiences in all of Star Wars, and people would rather queue for ranked arenas than GSF for their CXP. They won't touch GSF with a ten meter lightsaber because the learning curve is steeper than the Zakuul Spire.

 

Until THAT gets fixed, somehow, people will avoid GSF like the Womp Rat Fever.

Edited December 15, 2016 by phalczen

I don't think people avoid GSF because its in dire need of work and content, the way most people 'round here view such things. Veterans who have left the game probably did so because of a lack of content (like new maps or game modes).

 

But, listening to podcasts, and watching general discussion, and even my own guild, I've come to realize that most players in the game avoid GSF because:

1.) Most players in the main game feel that the learning curve, the gearing curve, and (by extension) the matchmaking, are the biggest deterrents.

2.) Many players in the main game would do GSF if it had a PVE mode, but don't want to PVP.

 

Now, experienced helpful veterans in this sub forum can argue point #1 till they are blue in the face (or black, if they are Chiss or Twi'leks). They can post videos of doing well or even topping the scoreboard in stock ships, they can produce helpful guides on how to quickly gear your ships with just a few matches worth of requisition, they can provide pages of evidence of how gunships and bombers have counters that are readily available to even novice pilots.

 

But it won't change the perception that the game is just too hard. One of the most iconic experiences in all of Star Wars, and people would rather queue for ranked arenas than GSF for their CXP. They won't touch GSF with a ten meter lightsaber because the learning curve is steeper than the Zakuul Spire.

 

Until THAT gets fixed, somehow, people will avoid GSF like the Womp Rat Fever.

 

This is spot on.

But it won't change the perception that the game is just too hard. One of the most iconic experiences in all of Star Wars, and people would rather queue for ranked arenas than GSF for their CXP. They won't touch GSF with a ten meter lightsaber because the learning curve is steeper than the Zakuul Spire.

 

Until THAT gets fixed, somehow, people will avoid GSF like the Womp Rat Fever.

Here's the thing... it IS hard. It's not a matter of perception, GSF is difficult.

 

Making it easy would certainly make it more attractive to new players, but you'd end up with something like Battlefront's space combat, which seems more about providing a cinematic space combat experience rather than a deep PvP game where strategy, tactics, build choices and pilot skill matter. You'd attract more casual players, you'd lose the veteran players, and it would remove the essence of what GSF is.

 

Making GSF PvE would be neat, but it wouldn't solve the problem of people not being comfortable with PvP. Maybe if there was wildly popular GSF PvE content, some development would spill over into the PvP part of it, but that's not what GSF's focus ever was and the PvE rail-shooter space content got dropped like a radioactive potato.

 

People aren't avoiding GSF because it's hard. They are avoiding GSF because they come to SWTOR to play a cinematic PvE MMORPG, not a PvP arcade space shooter. It is a whole different genre of game wedged into another game whose audience does not want what GSF offers.

 

If you bought a new car, and that car happened to also include an accordion, would you be interested in learning to play the accordion? Maybe, but the odds are slim. The accordion is hard to play and has a lot of weird controls, and all you really wanted was to do was drive around in your new car. You didn't really sign up to learn an unwieldy musical instrument that can sound like a sick cow if you play it wrong.

 

The one thing I believe would allow GSF to retain casual players who want a less intense experience is a custom match lobby that allows people to set up games with whatever parameters they choose (ie 'no gunships TDM' or 'strikes only') where they can play against their friends without dipping into the general queue all the time.

 

The only way for GSF to have a larger audience is if SWTOR's player base balloons exponentially and GSF siphons off a little of that. or if somehow they were to allow easier access to GSF as a standalone experience that could be marketed to people who actually play space shooters, not to MMORPG players.

 

Until something like that happens, help new players to learn.

 

- Despon

Edited December 15, 2016 by caederon

Here's the thing... it IS hard. It's not a matter of perception, GSF is difficult.

 

Making it easy would certainly make it more attractive to new players, but you'd end up with something like Battlefront's space combat, which seems more about providing a cinematic space combat experience rather than a deep PvP game where strategy, tactics, build choices and pilot skill matter. You'd attract more casual players, you'd lose the veteran players, and it would remove the essence of what GSF is.

 

There are ways to adjust the learning curve without nerfing its strategy aspect.

1. Verain was a big advocate for flytext indicating when your shots had been evaded, and real time feedback is probably the best way for players to learn what they are doing wrong. You can figure out not to stand in stupid in the ground game because you seem to die every time you stand in that red circle. Evasion is an important mechanic and essential for the meta that isn't ever taught anywhere in the game. Flytext for evaded shots, better visualizations of mine trigger radii, etc.

• Faster requisition gain: I've argued against this for many of the reasons I put in my post above, but I've decided that's just not worth the fight. Double requisition weekends won't save GSF by themselves, since we know historically they haven't done much to increase the playerbase for a sustained period of time. But, it can at least eliminate the sense that you are bringing a vibroknife to an assault cannon fight.

• Fix/rebalance/adjust starter ships: this definitely includes things like rapid fire lasers and buffs to strikes, traps like charged plating on the T1 strike, but in general the T1 scout and strike that everyone gets from the get go need to be more than just a means to complete "Introduction to Starfighter" and earn 5000 fleet req to buy a GS and a bomber. I admit this is more of a problem for the strike than the T1 scout.

• Tutorial: perhaps this is too much for a bare bones dev team (perhaps all of it is), but baring a pve mode to GSF, and if the previous steps fail to make headway, a better tutorial could help with the learning curve and build tools for future pve content. You get ten player levels before you can do ground pvp as your de facto tutorial. GSF should have at least as much thought into its preparation.

• Infiltrators: I am wholly convinced by

Yallia's thorough analysis of these, which you linked the other day in the max GS thread. Yallia makes a compelling case that these were supposed to be part of the balance that is GSF. These wouldn't solve the new player experience by themselves, but they would provide a tantalizing option for players used to a rogue in other MMOs or stealth classes in this game.

 

People aren't avoiding GSF because it's hard. They are avoiding GSF because they come to SWTOR to play a cinematic PvE MMORPG, not a PvP arcade space shooter. It is a whole different genre of game wedged into another game whose audience does not want what GSF offers.

 

The new car with free accordion analogy is a good one, but in a game where sitting in a cockpit is such a key part of the experience that is Star Wars, a better analogy would be getting a new car with an automatic and a clutchless manual transmission. I agree that they are different types of games, the ground game and the space game, but you could also say that about the difference between the cinematic chapters and unranked pvp warzones. There is something that links everything though, and its the visceral feel of living in the star wars universe. I think the problem is players want to feel just like Luke being successful in his x-wing and they don't get that when they fly a t1 strike into a gunship nest. They don't realize that Luke spent a lot of time bullseye-ing womprats in his T-16 in Beggar's Canyon before he bullseyed a protorp up the Death Star's exhaust (besides his natural Force talents.) I used to think the problem was incentives/GSF-themed rewards, and I still think that its a contributor (we know from Daniel's Ph.D. thesis that customization is a huge component to player motivation). But now I believe it to be the new player experience, and I believe there are things that can be done that won't dumb down the game you and other veterans enjoy. I'm not as good as you all, but I still want to see GSF succeed.

perhaps this is too much for a bare bones dev team (perhaps all of it is)

The bare bones of the GSF dev team have long since been robbed from their grave and hauled around to other projects (or maybe, other employment opportunities).

 

Every one of your suggestions would improve the game and the new player experience, and I'd be happy to see any or all of them implemented. They're sensible things that a game under active development would likely have already done. I'm not sure that they would do much to convince MMORPG players that playing a space combat PvP game is something they want to try, but it wouldn't hurt.

 

you could also say that about the difference between the cinematic chapters and unranked pvp warzones

You sure could. When was the last time PvP warzones saw significant development? I actually don't play those, but I am under the impression that they got left behind quite a while ago, too. They probably have seen more attention than GSF, but they probably have more participation... and the skills needed to play ground PvP are at least closely related to the skills you learn from ground PvE.

 

If I had been in charge of making a Star Wars MMO, and knew that we wanted to include space combat, I'd have had a PvE version of it integrated with the game from day one using the same controls as the PvP part. Some version of the rail shooter that had identical controls and ship capabilities to GSF would have allowed players to ease into gaining the mechanical skills they would need to PvP, especially if there was direct integration into the ground game's rewards and progression.

 

Since we lack the power to assign a dev team as we see fit, and since we can't crowdfund one on our own, the only tool left to us is to increase awareness of GSF and provide resources for people who decide to take the plunge. That's one of the reasons I have thrown as much time and effort as I have into GSF School, both in its previous chat based incarnation and into the new YouTube Channel. If the subscriber numbers go up, and the videos get solid views, that'd be tangible evidence to present to BioWare that there is interest in their long-lost minigame. As pipedreams go, it's not a bad one.

 

- Despon

There are ways to adjust the learning curve without nerfing its strategy aspect.

 

1. Flytext...
   
2. Faster requisition gain: ...
   
3. Fix/rebalance/adjust starter ships: ...
   
4. Tutorial: ...
   
5. Infiltrators: ...
   

Not so much 2 but certainly 3 and 4 are the bare minimum effort needed to make GSF even remotely appealing to a larger audience. That's precisely what I mean by the chicken or the egg. Who wants to play something that's clearly been abandoned?

 

That's the bigger problem here. They keep designing and abandoning new modes (GSF, EC, etc.) before they've even gone through a single design iteration. Who's going to bother playing something when it's clear they're just going to drop it when people don't instantly love the concept or implementation?

 

Designers aren't omniscient. They just aren't going to get it right the first time. If you're not willing to listen to and more importantly understand honest feedback it'll never get to the point where more people are going to participate.

Who wants to play something that's clearly been abandoned?

...

Who's going to bother playing something when it's clear they're just going to drop it when people don't instantly love the concept or implementation?

That's the funny thing about GSF. Despite being abandoned, and having long-standing bugs, it's strong enough even in that state to keep people playing it. Despite their failure to sensibly monetize it, or to provide a good gateway into it, despite being buried in an MMORPG, it's still got players, and new ones still show up.

 

The original design was a good one, especially if it had been carried out to its intended end (stealth ships added to the meta) and tweaked. They were 4.5k into a 5k race and someone decided it just wasn't worth it to get to the finish line. I doubt it was the devs who made that call.

 

Chess hasn't added any new pieces in a very long time, nor has it rebalanced the board. Go hasn't added a third faction in the ages it's been around. GSF isn't classic to anywhere near that degree, but it's also not unplayable. For those to whom this type of game appeals, it presents many challenges to overcome, many nuances to learn. It rewards persistence and active commitment to self-improvement.

 

In the absence of developer attention, I think the best course of action is providing people the knowledge to find their place in the game. Not everyone will... but those who do might be enough to make some noise.

 

- Despon

That's the funny thing about GSF. Despite being abandoned, and having long-standing bugs, it's strong enough even in that state to keep people playing it. Despite their failure to sensibly monetize it, or to provide a good gateway into it, despite being buried in an MMORPG, it's still got players, and new ones still show up.

GSF does have its charm, no argument there.

 

The original design was a good one, especially if it had been carried out to its intended end (stealth ships added to the meta) and tweaked. They were 4.5k into a 5k race and someone decided it just wasn't worth it to get to the finish line. I doubt it was the devs who made that call.

I think your 4.5k of a 5k comment is spot on.

 

Chess hasn't added any new pieces in a very long time, nor has it rebalanced the board. Go hasn't added a third faction in the ages it's been around.

Totally different audience. Turn based and the meta's static.

 

GSF isn't classic to anywhere near that degree, but it's also not unplayable. For those to whom this type of game appeals, it presents many challenges to overcome, many nuances to learn. It rewards persistence and active commitment to self-improvement.

No it's not unplayable. What irks me is that there are two pretty well defined target demographics: Arcade and flight sim. They completely missed both. Too complex to appeal to the arcade crowd and too clunky for the simmers. Heck, I'd be perfectly content if it was one or the other instead of some distorted mish-mash of both.

 

In the absence of developer attention, I think the best course of action is providing people the knowledge to find their place in the game. Not everyone will... but those who do might be enough to make some noise.

Fight the good fight man.

 

I'm trying to carve out some time to get back into flying regularly (burned out a little bit before bombers were released).

What irks me is that there are two pretty well defined target demographics: Arcade and flight sim. They completely missed both. Too complex to appeal to the arcade crowd and too clunky for the simmers. Heck, I'd be perfectly content if it was one or the other instead of some distorted mish-mash of both.

You're certainly entitled to look at it that way, but for me, the combination of arcade/sim elements positioned it precisely where it had the most impact on me. I find the hybrid nature to be a strength that places GSF in a sparse category of games (only really including Star Conflict) that doesn't require the attention to fiddly detail that, say, Elite has but isn't so simplistic as Battlefront. There's plenty of room in the Space Combat genre for different takes on old tropes.

 

GSF also happens to closely resemble Freelancer (my all time favorite space combat game) in terms of controls and combat style, and isn't so far off of X-Wing Alliance (another game I liked a lot) or the Wing Commander series. It's pretty well rooted in the history of such gaming, while adding its own ideas, basically turning the genre into an e-sport. It's a shame that Bioware didn't capitalize on that aspect of it initially, but that's also part of what I'm trying to bring out in the YouTube channel.

 

- Despon

Would also help if say once a week or so a group of veteran pilots on each server would hold teaching events. Get 2 vets each faction to form a 4 person group with 3 newbs off fleet and synchronize queue. Vets hang back at launch and participate just enough to avoid getting kicked. Spend the match coaching. Let the newbs with their new ships have fun and learn the game without being farmed for 20 kills by one ace and driving half the newbs away. Other thing vets doing the coaching would do is keep any pug vets on their team from farming enemy newbs and if an enemy vet comes in go keep him busy while newbs are learning. I fly on harbinger pubside. I win some lose some, not a great pilot but past 2cweeks have topped the board 70 percent of the time. And biggest thing I see is new pilots trying it out cause they hear about the fast cxp, and never doing it again cause a certain 3 or 4 regulars, you know who you are, actively farm the 2 shippers but run from confrontation with other vets. Yet these same plp will leave the match and complain in gsf chat that Noone new ever sticks around anymore... huh. Wonder why. I stuck around cause I like flying. But it was frustrating weeks and months ago when I would get farmed for kills. It's thanks to a couple of pilots from harby that post here regularly and are very helpful in game that I learned counters to different pilots and how to win. But alot of new pilots are not that patient and leave forever after getting farmed for 2 or 3 matches in a row. It's on us as much as the devs to make the game enjoyable for new pilots. Engage them in conversation. Group with them. Offer pointers. Give up farming medals for a few matches and fly close support for them. Etc etc. It's one of the most enjoyable parts of the game for me. And I think it's up to us as a community to make it open for new players. Cause atm it's sad that 90 percent of the pilots are regulars that you see every day and new pilots never stick around for more than 1 or 2 matches.

Would also help if say once a week or so a group of veteran pilots on each server would hold teaching events.

...

Group with them. Offer pointers. Give up farming medals for a few matches and fly close support for them. Etc etc. It's one of the most enjoyable parts of the game for me. And I think it's up to us as a community to make it open for new players. Cause atm it's sad that 90 percent of the pilots are regulars that you see every day and new pilots never stick around for more than 1 or 2 matches.

So, a few months back, I ran GSF School events for weeks on JC, Harb, and Shadowlands. They focused more on trying to get people into GSF chat and interaction there, but also included flying with them after. The effort largely failed because getting new players to 1. be aware that the effort was being made, and 2. to participate was a greater challenge than anticipated. Most of the participants were people who already flew a lot and wanted to sharpen their game. If you find a magic bullet for reaching new players who have an interest beyond the casual, then great. Let us know what that is. For the record, 'individually approaching them' has been tried, too.

 

Ultimately, the reason I set up the GSF School YouTube Channel was so people could find learning resources without having to show up at a specific time and place, and could digest lessons at their own pace. We'll see how it goes.

 

I also more recently participated in an event held by Unholy Alliance guild, in which they needed some GSF tutoring because they were going to be flying GSF matches as guild teams for a charity event. This sort of thing, a guild-sponsored initiative, could be more successful because there is a mechanism to drum up participation from within the guild rosters. So if you're looking to set something like your idea up, get in touch with guildmasters of large guilds which don't currently play GSF. Convince them it's worth their while to play and have their guildies trained up.

 

Finally, I recently conducted an experiment which has now concluded and I'll be sharing the results soon, but one of my takeaways from it is that given a large enough player pool (Harb in this instance) the matchmaking algorithm does a pretty good job. New people get sorted into one-sided veteran-filled stomps perhaps less often than we assume they do. The bigger issue is that there are so few in-game mechanisms to teach new people why their teams are winning or losing, and why they personally are performing well or poorly.

 

- Despon

I just wish devs can restore levelling (fast, please) in GSF. I can't stand doing all these story chapters all over again and again on my altrs. Its totally boring!!!!

nevermind Edited May 2, 2021 by Lord_Thorne