I understand, in the end we are made to believe Luke redeemed Anakin. However, this is the same guy who murdered countless younglings in ROTS. How is a character so evil able to be redeemed? And how is he then accepted by the other jedi ghosts when his crimes were so heinous?

Because he saved the galaxy from the Emperor who plotted the entire downfall of the Republic? Also it's not like Anakin killed them without any remorse, we see him literally crying afterwards for what he had done, it's not like he was 100% evil. Also the Jedi aren't suppose to harbor any ill will to others, sure it was rather a devastating thing, but they aren't gonna stay mad forever, they know that those killed are now one with The Force and are at peace.

They are trained to understand and not have emotion get in the way of things, they aren't gonna stay mad at Anakin, especially when he killed the guy who not only planned the downfall of the Republic, but also who manipulated him, destroyed the Jedi Order and was then trying to manipulate Luke.

Because he saved the galaxy from the Emperor who plotted the entire downfall of the Republic? Also it's not like Anakin killed them without any remorse, we see him literally crying afterwards for what he had done, it's not like he was 100% evil. Also the Jedi aren't suppose to harbor any ill will to others, sure it was rather a devastating thing, but they aren't gonna stay mad forever, they know that those killed are now one with The Force and are at peace.

I agree, sort of. But, to me, it makes him seem kind of selfish that it took seeing his own son suffer at the Emperor's hands for him to finally act. What about all the suffering he himself inflicted on all the sons of others?

I don't know, I'm just conflicted with the character lol

I agree, sort of. But, to me, it makes him seem kind of selfish that it took seeing his own son suffer at the Emperor's hands for him to finally act. What about all the suffering he himself inflicted on all the sons of others?

 

I don't know, I'm just conflicted with the character lol

Except it's the context of why he did it. Vader realized that the one who destroyed his life was himself. He knew this and it's why in the various books Vader acknowledges the thing he hates the most is himself. However, at that moment he realizes there's been another large factor for his problems. Palpatine himself. It wasn't entirely Vader's fault either. In the novelizations it makes it pretty clear that as Sidious talked to him he did use his own dark side to manipulate his thoughts and actions. He also was the one who was manipulating Anakin's dreams and created the false future that he himself eventually turned into a reality.

Anakin was as much a victim as everyone else. Yes he killed a lot of innocent people but it was through palpatine's manipulation. Plus Palpatine had another goal in mind other than just "Ruling the galaxy" he intended to turn the entire galaxy into darkness. Corrupt every aspect of the force and essentially rule as a dark side god. If the dark side is the only "Force" that exists then that means we have a universe where the only thing that can survive is negativity and corruption. Anakin prevented this from happening. Plus it's made clear it wasn't selfishness that made him step in to save Luke. He accepted the lightside.

Except it's the context of why he did it. Vader realized that the one who destroyed his life was himself. He knew this and it's why in the various books Vader acknowledges the thing he hates the most is himself. However, at that moment he realizes there's been another large factor for his problems. Palpatine himself. It wasn't entirely Vader's fault either. In the novelizations it makes it pretty clear that as Sidious talked to him he did use his own dark side to manipulate his thoughts and actions. He also was the one who was manipulating Anakin's dreams and created the false future that he himself eventually turned into a reality.

 

Anakin was as much a victim as everyone else. Yes he killed a lot of innocent people but it was through palpatine's manipulation. Plus Palpatine had another goal in mind other than just "Ruling the galaxy" he intended to turn the entire galaxy into darkness. Corrupt every aspect of the force and essentially rule as a dark side god. If the dark side is the only "Force" that exists then that means we have a universe where the only thing that can survive is negativity and corruption. Anakin prevented this from happening. Plus it's made clear it wasn't selfishness that made him step in to save Luke. He accepted the lightside.

I see. Well said, thanks. So, in the end he realized that Palpatine was actually the source for all his problems, and that the entire time he had been brainwashed?

I see. Well said, thanks. So, in the end he realized that Palpatine was actually the source for all his problems, and that the entire time he had been brainwashed?

Yes. He also knew throwing Palpatine off was going to kill him but he did it anyway because it needed to be done. He knew by doing so he would save his son and the galaxy. So he willingly sacrificed himself as well. The Jedi forgave him because he made a choice that not only saved everyone but willingly ended his own life to do it. Self Sacrifice in the name of good has always been an ultimate expression of good in the media.

I agree, sort of. But, to me, it makes him seem kind of selfish that it took seeing his own son suffer at the Emperor's hands for him to finally act. What about all the suffering he himself inflicted on all the sons of others?

 

I don't know, I'm just conflicted with the character lol

It wasn't so much his son's suffering that brought back Anakin Skywalker. While his son was being immolated by Force/Sith Lighting, Anakin was probably remembering a "disarmed" Chancellor Palpatine lying aside a broken office window with Jedi Master Mace Windu towering over him, purple bladed lightsaber in hand, fending off bolts of Force/Sith Lightning. It was Anakin's chance to do the right thing, to correct the bad choice had previously made 23 years prior.

I see. Well said, thanks. So, in the end he realized that Palpatine was actually the source for all his problems, and that the entire time he had been brainwashed?

I wouldn't call it brainwashing. Anakin Skywalker was the classic Faustian victim, presented with the ultimate way to get what HE wanted. To save his beloved by pledging his loyalty to the Devil.

It wasn't so much his son's suffering that brought back Anakin Skywalker. While his son was being immolated by Force/Sith Lighting, Anakin was probably remembering a "disarmed" Chancellor Palpatine lying aside a broken office window with Jedi Master Mace Windu towering over him, purple bladed lightsaber in hand, fending off bolts of Force/Sith Lightning. It was Anakin's chance to do the right thing, to correct the bad choice had previously made 23 years prior.

Good point. And I wonder, could Mace Windu have killed Palpatine if Anakin had not interfered?

Good point. And I wonder, could Mace Windu have killed Palpatine if Anakin had not interfered?

No. Lucas made it clear that Windu won the lightsaber duel legitimately. That's only the saber duel. When Sidious started using force lightning against Windu, the beam of the lightsaber began to bend towards Windu's face. This is clarified in the novelization. Then Sidious makes it out to be that he's too weak and has no more power which we see as a lie when he sends windu out the window.

Sidious played weak so that Anakin would see windu as the bad guy.

I understand, in the end we are made to believe Luke redeemed Anakin. However, this is the same guy who murdered countless younglings in ROTS. How is a character so evil able to be redeemed? And how is he then accepted by the other jedi ghosts when his crimes were so heinous?

Well, different people have different views on how morality or redemption work.

For some, they're perfectly willing to accept that what we saw at the end of RotJ was the inverse of Obi-Wan's line:

He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and 'became' Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed.

For others, they may feel that there needs to be a 'balancing of the scales' if someone is going to be redeemed, and if that's the view you subscribe to there's probably a legitimate question of whether or not killing an evil tyrant and ending the Sith Order does or does not balance out all the things he did as Vader (as well as the question of how all the good he did as Anakin before his 'fall' factors in).

Reasonable minds can disagree over whether or not an evil man needs to do [X] amount of good works to 'pay back' for all the evil he did, or whether rejecting evil in his heart is, in itself, enough for redemption.

Good point. And I wonder, could Mace Windu have killed Palpatine if Anakin had not interfered?

I doubt it. Palpatine threw that fight when he felt Anakin approaching. There was at least one moment in the film where he almost scored a mortal hit on Master Windu. The fact that Palpatine slaughtered Agen Kolar, Saesee Tiin and Kit Fisto in about 10-15 seconds speaks to his power over the Dark Side. Mace was forced back into that hallway and had to give himself to Vaapad to even match the Dark Lord.

I understand, in the end we are made to believe Luke redeemed Anakin. However, this is the same guy who murdered countless younglings in ROTS. How is a character so evil able to be redeemed? And how is he then accepted by the other jedi ghosts when his crimes were so heinous?

Yeah, the man became a murderer, bottom line. But, the end sometimes justifies the means.

Because he saved the galaxy from the Emperor who plotted the entire downfall of the Republic? Also it's not like Anakin killed them without any remorse, we see him literally crying afterwards for what he had done, it's not like he was 100% evil. Also the Jedi aren't suppose to harbor any ill will to others, sure it was rather a devastating thing, but they aren't gonna stay mad forever, they know that those killed are now one with The Force and are at peace.

 

They are trained to understand and not have emotion get in the way of things, they aren't gonna stay mad at Anakin, especially when he killed the guy who not only planned the downfall of the Republic, but also who manipulated him, destroyed the Jedi Order and was then trying to manipulate Luke.

If a guy sets on fire couple of Church Schools with hundreds of children inside and then Kills Stalin,cus he was about to kill his son,would you still be so lenient?Priests aren't supposed to harbour ill will vs sinners.It's not like he was 100% evil, he did cry for the younglings after he burned them alive.They aren't gonna stay mad forever,they know the dead studends are now in Heaven with God ,at peace.

fanboyism 101

Also f*ck the younglings, he killed adult jedi too.

Joking aside don't get me wrong i am all for the Sith and whatnot but the way Vader's fans are defending him is just creepy.

Yeah, the man became a murderer, bottom line. But, the end sometimes justifies the means.

Yes, keep saying that untill you are on the recieving end of someone else's means.

Yes, keep saying that untill you are on the recieving end of someone else's means.

Actually nothing was said, it was typed. Run along.

Yes, keep saying that untill you are on the recieving end of someone else's means.

Truth is Anakin was a whiny, selfish arrogant *****....just the kind of person that would say "The ends justify the means".....evil.

The ends do not always justify the means, for the exact same reason you just said.

(because saying it was typed not said is a cop out....we all know what Kaedusz meant.)

I understand, in the end we are made to believe Luke redeemed Anakin. However, this is the same guy who murdered countless younglings in ROTS. How is a character so evil able to be redeemed? And how is he then accepted by the other jedi ghosts when his crimes were so heinous?

I have often wondered why Vader is seen as the person who would bring balance to the Force. That is most cryptic given what we've seen first in the OT, and then in the PT. Then just a few ago it hit me: he did bring balance. I first thought of the Old Republic as it was in the events of Ep 1-3, and maybe a few years before it. It was corrupt. Bureaucracy can be bought for a price. The Jedi, being the protectors of that society, could not have possibly remained above such corruption. Perhaps not directly, but even by the mere fact that it is protecting and preserving that society against, ironically, the Sith has made it in contact with that corruption. We have not been told directly, but I think it is at least implied that the Jedi itself has been tainted. Thus the need for a purge. Thus the events that led to Anakin being the instrument to that. When I realized that, it all made sense why he was the one foretold who would bring about balance.

So with all that, how come the Jedi Masters, especially Yoda, has not realized that--and indeed what he could only tell is that Anakin's future was cloudy? I have two theories on that: one, the Jedi Masters, and even Yoda himself, has been somehow affected by that corruption. Again maybe not directly nor to a great extent, but nonetheless tainted. So they could not totally see the role Anakin has to play. Another theory I have is that Yoda knew all along all that might happen but decided not to reveal to others to spare them the grief and possibly even attempt on killing Anakin--which would then prevent the prophecy from being fulfilled.

So from purging the Jedi of corruption, the Sith came back to power. But that would mean another imbalance in the Force, so for the last time Anakin as Vader would have to bring everything full circle, by killing the Emperor and sacrificing himself (with of course the help of his son). So with all that, as it is said, the circle was now complete and balance was fully restored with a leaner, purge Jedi as well as the Sith brought back in control. And so the prophecy was fulfilled.

I have often wondered why Vader is seen as the person who would bring balance to the Force. That is most cryptic given what we've seen first in the OT, and then in the PT. Then just a few ago it hit me: he did bring balance.

Of course he did, at the end of Ep 3 there were 2 Sith and 2 Jedi left - perfect balance.

I understand, in the end we are made to believe Luke redeemed Anakin. However, this is the same guy who murdered countless younglings in ROTS. How is a character so evil able to be redeemed? And how is he then accepted by the other jedi ghosts when his crimes were so heinous?

Ugh, I hated that scene for exactly that reason. It was just more of Lucas hamfisted flailing about and stripping Anakin's story of any semblance of tragedy or sympathy. I mean seriously, he had 'fallen' like 5 minutes before and here he is, cheerfully cutting down a room full of toddlers.

Remind me again how it was totally the tragic story of a hero falling into darkness for love, and not the story of a narcissistic ******* who goes psycho-sadist the minute he's let off his leash.

Doubly ironic coming from Lucas, the same guy who made Greedo shoot first because he said Han shooting first to save his own life would have made him some kind of psychotic murderer.

It's a shame he hadn't thought of that scene in the original trilogy. I could just see Vader laying there dying and going , "Hey Luke, did I ever tell you about the time I decapitated a bunch of 5 year olds? Man, those were the days."

Of course he did, at the end of Ep 3 there were 2 Sith and 2 Jedi left - perfect balance.

Not sure if serious but that isn't how balance worked.