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Is It just me? Are Scouts a bit OP?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
Is It just me? Are Scouts a bit OP?

LeonBraun's Avatar


LeonBraun
12.29.2013 , 01:21 PM | #251
Quote: Originally Posted by Arilou_skiff View Post
Now, the Sting/Flashfire is more problematic, largely because it seems so much better than the Rycer/Star Guard in most respects. Yes, it's not as durable, but it has anti-figther missiles as well as anti-turrent rockets, better durability than the Blackbolt, and so forth.
The Flashfire/Sting have EITHER rocket pods or Cluster Missiles, but not both.

If they use Rocket Pods, they excel at taking out turrets and stationary ships, or ones that try to play chicken with a Scout, but the weakness for Rocket Pods is their low accuracy and can be defended by mobility.

If they use Cluster missiles, they are better dogfighters, but lose the burst ability as well as being able to take out turrets effectively.

Quite honestly I'm a little baffled at people feeling Scouts are OP. They have things they excel at and the issue comes when people try to out-scout the Scouts. You have to play them for their many weaknesses, not play into their hands.
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Sharee's Avatar


Sharee
12.29.2013 , 01:51 PM | #252
Quote: Originally Posted by Arilou_skiff View Post
Now, the Sting/Flashfire is more problematic, largely because it seems so much better than the Rycer/Star Guard in most respects.
I think that's more a problem with the Star guard than with the Flashfire. The strike fighters just don't know what they are supposed to do. They get picked apart at long range by gunships, and at short range by scouts. The only problem a strike fighter gives my scout is the constant missile locks when i am already fighting someone else(and even in that scenario, a gunship would be much more of a threat).

Strike fighters need some niche they will excel at that neither the scout nor the gunship has access to. Currently they don't have one.

Lymain's Avatar


Lymain
12.29.2013 , 02:02 PM | #253
Quote: Originally Posted by Sharee View Post
Strike fighters need some niche they will excel at that neither the scout nor the gunship has access to. Currently they don't have one.
Their niche is the ability to be effective at multiple ranges with a single loadout. They're all about versatility...making them the best at any one role while maintaining their versatility would be overpowered. However, some slight improvements to missiles and giving the Rycer/Star Guard access to BLCs would emphasize their intended strengths more.
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DarthVindictus's Avatar


DarthVindictus
12.29.2013 , 02:05 PM | #254
Quote: Originally Posted by Zoom_VI View Post
LoL clusters, I have never met a good scout pilot that uses clusters extensively. Please clusters are a cheap trick that are nothing more than a psych weapon. I often run out of the things early in a match and fight on with no reduction in capacity without them.

However removing rocket pods would hurt the class hard.
Upgraded clusters are far more dangerous than rocket pods. especially when I can count on my hands how many times I've actually been hit by rocket pods. If they have the upgrade to fire 2 clusters at once they really hurt.

DarthVindictus's Avatar


DarthVindictus
12.29.2013 , 02:06 PM | #255
Quote: Originally Posted by Lymain View Post
Their niche is the ability to be effective at multiple ranges with a single loadout. They're all about versatility...making them the best at any one role while maintaining their versatility would be overpowered. However, some slight improvements to missiles and giving the Rycer/Star Guard access to BLCs would emphasize their intended strengths more.
"multiple ranges"

short and shorter? Generally a strike fighter is equipped to be effective between 4-5k range, same as a flashfire/sting.

Sharee's Avatar


Sharee
12.29.2013 , 02:13 PM | #256
Quote: Originally Posted by Resipsal View Post
I have mentioned the sensor package in previous posts, and the sensor upgrade is indeed a nice Novadive exclusive upgrade (at lease between the 2 scouts). Unfortunately, dampening only works at distances beyond 15,000 meters. This does allows you to sneak up on objectives and gunships, but if they're wary they'll still see you as soon as you cross the 15,000 meter threshold.
Where do you get this information from? I am fairly sure i have been hit before by gunships that i could not target back. If what you wrote was true, i should have been able to, as to hit me a gunship needs to be within 15km.

Quote: Originally Posted by Resipsal View Post
You mention using rocket pods with light lasers to kill a gunship before it realizes it's been made. This is indeed a good strategy, but one that is better realized with a Flashfire. Burst cannons have more burst damage than light lasers, and Flashfires can equip rocket pods too if they choose. Blaster overcharge is the third and final ingredient in the gunship assassin's cookbook, but it is Flashfire only.
Burst laser does more damage per hit. It has 'more burst' than light lasers when all you get is one hit. That's why its excellent for knife fights where you only get brief windows of opportunity to fire.

But when you get to hold down the trigger, the weapon's DPS comes into play, and light lasers beat burst laser because they have higher accuracy at the distance you open from, and also higher DPS.

And i am not using blaster overcharge, i prefer booster recharge, because it allows me to get where i need to be much faster, and also saves my butt when i get hit by ion tap(Quick Boost -> Barrel Roll).

mr_sim's Avatar


mr_sim
12.29.2013 , 02:16 PM | #257
Quote: Originally Posted by Resipsal View Post
This is your problem. You make this claim in all your posts, but never support it. In what way do strikers have more "punch" or "sustained dps" in any way?

The strikers have ion cannons, heavy laser cannons, proton torpedoes, and a couple of other things that don't really seem to be particularly effective compared to the advantages of the Flashfire.

If you have a strike fighter that out "punches" the Flashfires on your server, please tell us what your build is for this ship.
I couldn't find who your were quoting BTW.

If you add potential dps from striker missiles and cannons then yes they do more total damage before exhaustion. The key factor is role and good mechanics as scouts have no long range dps ability. The strikers can build for long range and more importantly have strong medium range abilities, every class does short range obviously. So the theoretical factor is that a striker will engage from long range into medium range and finish up at short range hence longer period of damage dealing hence more total dps. The Scout though more notably the flashfire as it is the Dogfighter of the scouts needs burst to have some parody to the striker.

Quote: Originally Posted by Resipsal View Post
I have mentioned the sensor package in previous posts, and the sensor upgrade is indeed a nice Novadive exclusive upgrade (at lease between the 2 scouts). Unfortunately, dampening only works at distances beyond 15,000 meters. This does allows you to sneak up on objectives and gunships, but if they're wary they'll still see you as soon as you cross the 15,000 meter threshold.

You mention using rocket pods with light lasers to kill a gunship before it realizes it's been made. This is indeed a good strategy, but one that is better realized with a Flashfire. Burst cannons have more burst damage than light lasers, and Flashfires can equip rocket pods too if they choose. Blaster overcharge is the third and final ingredient in the gunship assassin's cookbook, but it is Flashfire only.

Essentially the question is are you willing to give up burst cannons and blaster overcharge in order to receive the sensor package? The answer for most gunship hunters is "no."

The problem with the sensor upgrade is it seems to be the *only* advantage that the Novadive has over the Flashfire.
OK so lets firm up the scout roles here as the two types are actually quite diverse.

The True Scout is the Nova Dive and the Black Bolt. It has the most traversablity(engine power) strong sensors, and crude missiles that allow it to open up its range. The True Scout performs these roles best:

- initial Capture, In fact you can build yours a a one off ship that you only use at match opening.
- Control point response, at C but there is trouble at A, your the only one that can get there in time to do anything. that said the True Scout is only really able to delay capture until heavyer help arrives.
- Responsive Control point assault, this is similar to control point response. Basically when your opponent is pouring it on one of your control points with heavy numbers you quickly hit the now stripped defenses of rear control points
- GS scouting, Search and distract. You have the sensors to spot that GS your team knows it there, the sooner that GS stops shooting at them the better, good thing your good at the response role. You might wish to book some quality time with some striker buddies to meet you out there for some coffee and armor busting.
- turrets slashers, use strafing runs to take out turrets.

The Interceptor Scout. This be the flashfires and Stings, also cartel unlock scout. This is the second most transverable ship in the game. In many ways it's not a scout at all but Bioware probably wanted to keep the classes simple. The interceptor Scout performs these roles best:

- responsive defense, like the True Scout it has the legs to get to the next control point in time to make a difference. it's limited to the next door where the True Scout can cross the map.
- responsive assault(anti-starfighter) same as True scout though again not quite as fast and should focus on downing the defending starfighters and not simply turning the control point.
- Medium Range intercept. hit node attackers when they are zeroed in on a node and beginning their attack runs.
- Hunter killers. Turns out your team found Baron Fel or Wedge Antilles is killing them off by the numbers, your mission is to find tie up and if possible destroy this ACE. Essentially your using your speed to turn a 12v12 into an 11v11. This role should only be applied if there is a problematic Ace.
- GS assault. this is not to say it is the ideal craft to do this, merely is to say that it is also a role the interceptor can perform.

Now you can rebuild a scout to try to make it perform a different role, A bursty scout will kill turrets any ship can kill turrets. But to say interceptors are ideal turret killers is not a universally factual statement, while I believe a players can adapt his play style to be effective on turrets that does not mean it is the optimal tool for the job, and perhaps you should be performing a different role and not killing off turrets as some one else is more optimized to do it. It's sort of like a Dps having to do self heals while the healer is dpsing the boss.

The Interceptor scout is a good choice for supporting the True Scout because of it's closer speed parody.

Lymain's Avatar


Lymain
12.29.2013 , 02:16 PM | #258
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthVindictus View Post
"multiple ranges"

short and shorter? Generally a strike fighter is equipped to be effective between 4-5k range, same as a flashfire/sting.
So you're complaining about having the freedom to make sub-optimal choices? I started out using the Laser Cannon on my Blackbolt; that doesn't mean the Blackbolt is gimp.

As a strike fighter, your weapon selections dictate how powerful your number 1 hotkey is. Maximize the usefulness of that hotkey in order to leverage the offensive advantage that strike fighters have.
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Delta_V's Avatar


Delta_V
12.29.2013 , 02:29 PM | #259
Quote: Originally Posted by LeonBraun View Post
Here's the thing. Blaster Overcharge is powerful yes, but it's only effective on stationary targets or fighters that are moving in a straight line. Anything that is moving makes a hard target for the Scout. Once the Scout has their CD's on cool down, they're as good as naked out there. That the advantage and players have to counter that effectively. If they want to play chicken with a Scout popping their CD's, they are gonna be gunned down. Don't make yourself easy prey for a Scout.
LOL, what? Moving targets are harder for Strikes because they're slower and less maneuverable. Scouts can leverage their superior speed and maneuverability to keep the target in their sights.

Also, Flashfires are naked w/out their cooldowns? Their damage is comparable to a Strike's without their offensive cooldowns, and far superior when they are up. Defensively, they might have lower shields on paper, but 41% evasion means they're only taking 59% of the blaster damage a Strike would in the same situation (and that's not even accounting for the Flashfire's speed and maneuverability making it easier to stay out of the enemies' sights), which closes the gap in durability considerably. Evasion might not help against missiles (although Distortion Field can be specced into giving a second lock breaker), but if you are routinely letting the enemy get missile locks when you're in one of the two fastest, most maneuverable fighters in the game, you are doing something wrong.

Quote:
Second, Cluster missiles are not part of any burst mechanic on a Scout, they have a locking time and are ineffective if anything is moving around at any rate, and they don't work well with said CD's that some are having issues with. What gives the Scout burst are their Rocket Pods combined with their offensive blaster CD's which again only really work well on stationary targets, or fighters moving in a straight line. Again, don't make yourself easy prey for a Scout. It's not all that complicated.

The cluster missiles also work much better on Striker as they're more of a range fighter and have to play vectors and angles well. Don't try to out race a Scout, or fly in a straight line with one, that is playing to their strengths. Come in on them at angles and use your locking missiles. Strikers are designed to have more punch and have more durability; use this strength. If you are playing a Striker, don't try to out-scout the Scout. Play to the SF strengths.
Rocket Pods are better for ambushing stationary targets (aka Gunships. Turrets don't count because anyone and their mother can kill them w/out difficulty) because they don't alert the target w/ a lock-on warning, but Clusters are a perfectly viable option in a dogfight. I'd argue that Clusters are a better all-around option because, like you said, Rockets are only useful against stationary targets. If you're encountering more stationary targets than the occasional Gunship (again, dealing with Turrets is so trivial it shouldn't affect your build), you are playing against incompetent morons, and it shouldn't matter what strategy or build you use. Clusters have such a wide firing arc that they are perfectly usable in a dogfight (if you can hit the enemy w/ your lasers, you can usually get a lock-on at the same time). Each missile might not do a whole lot of damage, but when you've got over 20 of them (and very few will be wasted since they're almost impossible to evade after they've been fired), they can add up to a significant chunk of damage.

Again, you talk about Strikes somehow having "more punch" and yet you still haven't justified this statement. What Strike build has "more punch" than a Flashfire? The only weapons the Strikes have access to that a Flashfire doesn't are Heavy Lasers, Ion Cannons (Starguard only), Concussion Missiles, Proton Torpedoes, and Ion Missiles (Pike only). Of those, most are niche weapons that have lower overall damage potential than the more general-purpose weapons. The only one from that list which lends itself to a higher dps potential are Ion Cannons, but as others have noted, the delay when switching between weapons means they're only practical against targets w/ large shield pools (currently Gunships, and likely Bombers when they show up).

mr_sim's Avatar


mr_sim
12.29.2013 , 02:49 PM | #260
Strikers have large pools to but their recharge rate + maneuverability diminished Ion effectiveness.