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"Unconvential" PvE Tank Spec. Yay or Nay?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Vanguard / Powertech
"Unconvential" PvE Tank Spec. Yay or Nay?

Moostick's Avatar


Moostick
01.03.2012 , 01:01 AM | #31
I'm really surprised anyone is even discussing this.

You'd be worthless in HM FPs.

2 pts in Electro Surge and 2 pts in Advanced Tools? No point in Jet Charge and 10% shield?

Hevra's Avatar


Hevra
01.03.2012 , 01:48 AM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by chainsawsamurai View Post

The lack of Jet Charge is inexcusable. If I knew you in person I would go to your house with a white board and a 12 pack of beer, not to share. I would then proceed to drink all the beer, put the whiteboard up on one of your walls, and begin drawing crude stick figure drawings of guys in rocket packs flying around being 100% more awesome than you because your rocket pack doesn't do anything but improve your jump shot. I would be making a lot of ZOOM noises while I did this. Afterwards I would probably puke on your lawn.

I know you really really really want to get that extra foot of jump height to punch The Sandman in his mouth-hole, but guess what Little Mac; Jet Charge is rad.

You think your group wants to wait for you to mosey on up to the next pack of badguys so they can wait a couple seconds more for you to establish threat so they can waidsfljfasdfjew

Sorry, I fell asleep on my keyboard just thinking about it.

Point is, don't hold crap up. Jet Charge in like a real man and start punching dudes in the face.
Ahahaha!

You, sir, are my hero.

/swoon

BlazingShadow's Avatar


BlazingShadow
01.03.2012 , 01:59 AM | #33
I can't believe you called Puncture a "waste". I should've stopped reading there... then I saw the template.

You're better off taking full shieldtech except for heatblast, then using those 11 points to grab retractable blade.

It doesn't seem like it, but 10% shield chance is ALOT of defense to give up.

Also, flame barriage is worthless. Please, get rid of it. I wouldnt take that even as an advproto.

*EDIT* did he change his setup? The link I'm clicking shows he has jetcharge, just not jet speed... which is worthless anyways.

Supaphat's Avatar


Supaphat
01.03.2012 , 04:43 AM | #34
If the problem is venting and your willing to give up mitigation why not go up the Pyrotech tree and have Rail Shot completely replace Heat Blast?

THE STANDARD SHIELD BUILD
DMG
+ 9% Aim
+ 2% Fire DMG
+ 6% Fire CRIT
Rocket Punch and Flame Sweep gain 30% CRIT DMG
+8% Ion Gas Cylinder Damage

MITIGATION + UTILITY

10% Shield Chance
Heat Blast (Dump 8 heat and deal minor damage)

///EXCHANGED FOR:

THE SHIELD/PYRO
DMG
+ 6% Rail Shot DMG
Rail Shot Ignores +10% Armour
Flame Burst has a 30% chance to reset the Rail Shot CD and make it FREE
Rocket Punch has a 45% chance to reset the Rail Shot CD and make it FREE

MITIGATION + UTILITY
+ 3% Endurance
+ 2% Melee and Ranged Defense
Vent 8 Heat when Stunned, Immobilized, Knocked Down, Incapacitated
Vent 8 Heat if Rail Shot hits a burning target

If you're willing to give up Jet Charge your Rail Shot will have 90% Armour Penetration instead of 70%. Also to nitpick its possibly worth exchanging 2% Fire DMG for 3% AIM but I am unsure of the math behind it.

Snowpdx's Avatar


Snowpdx
01.03.2012 , 09:43 AM | #35
A bit of a breakdown on what that 10% shielding actually does:

Base defensive stats, with no stats from gear, taking every other defensive talent in the tree: 22% shield, 26% absorb

Increasing shield chance by 10% takes you from a 78% chance to take an unshielded hit to a 68% chance, a 12.82% decrease. At 26% absorb your aggregate damage taken over time is reduced by 3.33%. That's a decent reduction for the investment.

The question I still have is this: is tank damage high enough that those 5 points are necessary, and if it isn't, how could we better spend those points?

To the person who said any extra damage above what you need to hold aggro is wasted: I call BS. Extra damage shortens fights, and shorter fights mean less opportunity to **** up. Being a tank doesn't mean you shouldn't maximize your damage output, particularly in an environment where tank damage isn't terribly threatening. I'd flip your statement around and say that any defensive stats over what we need to survive are wasted.

To players tanking endgame content: how high is your damage intake? Are healers struggling to keep you alive? Are enrage timers an issue?

Smokt's Avatar


Smokt
01.03.2012 , 11:27 AM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by Supaphat View Post
If the problem is venting and your willing to give up mitigation why not go up the Pyrotech tree and have Rail Shot completely replace Heat Blast?

THE STANDARD SHIELD BUILD
DMG
+ 9% Aim
+ 2% Fire DMG
+ 6% Fire CRIT
Rocket Punch and Flame Sweep gain 30% CRIT DMG
+8% Ion Gas Cylinder Damage

MITIGATION + UTILITY

10% Shield Chance
Heat Blast (Dump 8 heat and deal minor damage)

///EXCHANGED FOR:

THE SHIELD/PYRO
DMG
+ 6% Rail Shot DMG
Rail Shot Ignores +10% Armour
Flame Burst has a 30% chance to reset the Rail Shot CD and make it FREE
Rocket Punch has a 45% chance to reset the Rail Shot CD and make it FREE

MITIGATION + UTILITY
+ 3% Endurance
+ 2% Melee and Ranged Defense
Vent 8 Heat when Stunned, Immobilized, Knocked Down, Incapacitated
Vent 8 Heat if Rail Shot hits a burning target

If you're willing to give up Jet Charge your Rail Shot will have 90% Armour Penetration instead of 70%. Also to nitpick its possibly worth exchanging 2% Fire DMG for 3% AIM but I am unsure of the math behind it.
Thanks for posting this comparison.
In your ST/Pyro build I would consider losing the Supercharged Ion in its current state, it seems like a really minimal damage gain from what people are posting. Otherwise this looks pretty strong and I may try it out with my next respec!

Ekhhs's Avatar


Ekhhs
01.03.2012 , 07:16 PM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by Supaphat View Post
If the problem is venting and your willing to give up mitigation why not go up the Pyrotech tree and have Rail Shot completely replace Heat Blast?

THE STANDARD SHIELD BUILD
DMG
+ 9% Aim
+ 2% Fire DMG
+ 6% Fire CRIT
Rocket Punch and Flame Sweep gain 30% CRIT DMG
+8% Ion Gas Cylinder Damage

MITIGATION + UTILITY

10% Shield Chance
Heat Blast (Dump 8 heat and deal minor damage)

///EXCHANGED FOR:

THE SHIELD/PYRO
DMG
+ 6% Rail Shot DMG
Rail Shot Ignores +10% Armour
Flame Burst has a 30% chance to reset the Rail Shot CD and make it FREE
Rocket Punch has a 45% chance to reset the Rail Shot CD and make it FREE

MITIGATION + UTILITY
+ 3% Endurance
+ 2% Melee and Ranged Defense
Vent 8 Heat when Stunned, Immobilized, Knocked Down, Incapacitated
Vent 8 Heat if Rail Shot hits a burning target

If you're willing to give up Jet Charge your Rail Shot will have 90% Armour Penetration instead of 70%. Also to nitpick its possibly worth exchanging 2% Fire DMG for 3% AIM but I am unsure of the math behind it.
A far better option in my opinion. However, as has been continually stated in this post, the loss of 10% shield chance makes you far too RNG based defensively. The less consistent your incoming damage is, the more burst healing is required, making healers such as the Operative/Scoundrel struggle more than necessary.

The only way I would ever replace those 5 points is if damage reduction in another tree had an equalivalent overall mitigation increase.

In it's current state, the 10% shield chance is superior to other options, and provides a form of mitigation that will scale far better with gear.

Additionally, it irks me that everyone here is so concerned with aggro generation. In the case of the majority of these posts, it regards problems with multiple adds. The BH has more than enough tools, and can even vent 50 heat as a failsafe if you need to produce a few more abilties in order to maintain threat.

Aggro was an issue up until Flame Sweep, now, there is no excuse for losing threat, and I'm more concerned with facing/mitigation issues in comparison with other classes (I'm looking at you Guardian/Warrior with your 40% reduction) than anything else at the moment.

This isn't WoW, I'm not expecting or seeing many options regarding hybrids that will be min/max choices in PVE content.

And if you aren't interested in min/max options, please don't post them for people to argue over.
"So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.."

-Sun Tzu, The Art of War

Supaphat's Avatar


Supaphat
01.03.2012 , 09:07 PM | #38
If your Shield Absorbption is below a certain level the Pyrotech route could be appealing. 10% Shield Chance with 30% Shield Absorption equates to 3% less damage taken. Pyrotech recieves 2% less melee and ranged damage taken (this is the exact same damage types you are shielded from according to the tooltips and is considerably more stable because it does not proc, it's STATIC).

If you go pyrotech with 30% Shield Absorb you take 1% DMG more than the Shield spec if Aborption is 30%. The key is the Absorption is scalable. When you gain say 50% Absorb. Pyrotech spec takes 3% more DMG.