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Ylliarus's Avatar


Ylliarus
11.11.2019 , 07:11 PM | #131
Quote: Originally Posted by Goreshaga View Post
I've just finished the story with my 1st imperial character, and clearly the only thing that helped me get through this was the fact my toon was a saboteur.
And i actually don't like being a saboteur, i really wish my characters could openly fight against the Empire as none of my mains are psychopathic murderers who kill just for fun, they clearly can't support the Empire, and after everything that happened to them in their class stories, they have no reason to want to do that, but the saboteur path, just doesn't suit most of them

Adding to that, that playing a pub loyalist and an imp saboteur have pretty much completely different outcomes doesn't help.
I find it particularly annoying that for instance Gnost-Dural is free and well for my pub loyalist while he's either dead or captive for my imp saboteur. Makes it completly impossible to try to have a coherent story with my main as the pub loyalist and another character as an imp saboteur sharing the same universe, which was still doable untill Ossus...

Well, at least i enjoyed the pu loyalist story with my main.
Well, to each their own, I guess! I couldn't bring myself to be saboteur on the Empire as I love it too much to betray it on any of my Imp toons. But Republic saboteur is fun, I admit, making sure the Empire gains the upper hand in the war :P it's why I am glad we got the choice to pick how we want to go about it. And don't worry, I am convinced they're going to make a really nice resolution to the Saboteur arc where you'll defect to the other faction or be able to fight openly against your original faction as the alliance. The story just needs time to develop to be believable
The Lecyllath Legacy
Darth Malgus [EU]
SWTOR Player since November 25th, 2012
And here is my referral link!

JainiaDral's Avatar


JainiaDral
11.11.2019 , 08:45 PM | #132
Quote: Originally Posted by Ylliarus View Post
The Empire is supposed to be bad, the Republic is supposed to be good. This duality has been at the core of every Star Wars story we have known, just with different factions, groups or people. When playing the Empire, you're supposed to feel bad for being the bad guy. If we'd feel like the good guys while playing a Sith, then there would be something seriously wrong with the story in my opinion, why is part of the reason why I hate KotFE and KotET so much, my Imperial and Sith characters were starting to feel as the good guys.

I personally really like where the story is heading, as it's heading back to the class story feel and narrative of Empire vs Republic. Yes, the new story updates may be brief, but I'll gladly trade in length if we get two stories in return for it. The one-size-fits-all story approach from KotFEET was driving me crazy and severely hampered my liking of the game.

Don't give up on the game just yet, try the story out and view it differently. Maybe try approaching it from the perspective that you're supposed to be the bad guys while playing the Empire and relish in it for as long as it lasts. Because likely you're not an evil, Sith-type of person in real life, so enjoy pretending you're one for just a moment when playing the story :P It can be quite fun and it's why I love the Sith Empire so much! As to the Republic, maybe look at it more that being a Jedi, kind and helpful is more in line with your own nature. Of course, you don't have to do any of this, but I'm just trying to show you a different perspective and hopefully change your opinion on the story
You know, as someone living in a real-life Empire right now and seeing everything that was built up over centuries of popular struggle get dismantled by a reality TV show wrecking ball, that type of story really holds no appeal to me at all. I'm repulsed enough by reality

Anyway, I fundamentally disagree with you that the Empire is evil and the Republic is good. From a stated values standpoint, that might be true. But as you delve into the class stories, you see that there are all kinds of evils and goods and just normal, everyday people trying to survive in both societies. They have their overclasses, middle classes, underclasses just like Zakuul did. They're all, at their core, civilizations struggling to survive and thrive. Planetary story arcs, main storylines, and lots of sidequests built up this view with all kinds of subtleties and variations through all of the strata of Empire and Republic societies. You as a player could choose what to focus on in your worldview of the SWTOR universe.

That's not the case now. I loathe dichotomous thinking. Nothing is ever pure black or pure white. And both sets of leaders from KOTET onward behave exactly the same way. Heck, they were the same leader on Iokath Not to mention, the whole resource plot point has been lost to warmongering bullhockey. These stories are sort of a view of the top echelons of both societies, and, TBH, they both are uninteresting and kind of suck as a result. The fun part of the class stories has always been experiencing the cross-section of these civilizations, not just the boring leadership. The difference now is that the Empire is the supreme wrecking-ball of progress while the Pubs are trying to preserve what they've built. But both are doing it by slobbering like war dogs over scraps.

Not my cup of tea at all, sadly.

Ylliarus's Avatar


Ylliarus
11.12.2019 , 06:07 AM | #133
Quote: Originally Posted by JainiaDral View Post
You know, as someone living in a real-life Empire right now and seeing everything that was built up over centuries of popular struggle get dismantled by a reality TV show wrecking ball, that type of story really holds no appeal to me at all. I'm repulsed enough by reality

Anyway, I fundamentally disagree with you that the Empire is evil and the Republic is good. From a stated values standpoint, that might be true. But as you delve into the class stories, you see that there are all kinds of evils and goods and just normal, everyday people trying to survive in both societies. They have their overclasses, middle classes, underclasses just like Zakuul did. They're all, at their core, civilizations struggling to survive and thrive. Planetary story arcs, main storylines, and lots of sidequests built up this view with all kinds of subtleties and variations through all of the strata of Empire and Republic societies. You as a player could choose what to focus on in your worldview of the SWTOR universe.

That's not the case now. I loathe dichotomous thinking. Nothing is ever pure black or pure white. And both sets of leaders from KOTET onward behave exactly the same way. Heck, they were the same leader on Iokath Not to mention, the whole resource plot point has been lost to warmongering bullhockey. These stories are sort of a view of the top echelons of both societies, and, TBH, they both are uninteresting and kind of suck as a result. The fun part of the class stories has always been experiencing the cross-section of these civilizations, not just the boring leadership. The difference now is that the Empire is the supreme wrecking-ball of progress while the Pubs are trying to preserve what they've built. But both are doing it by slobbering like war dogs over scraps.

Not my cup of tea at all, sadly.
To each their own of course and I agree with you that there are varying levels of evil and good in both factions, that's entirely true. And of course, you're also correct in that there's always varying shades of grey between the black and white. However, the core thought of the Republic vs Empire, Jedi vs Sith story is the fight of good against evil, that's always been the core of every Star Wars story. First it was Empire vs Rebellion, then Republic vs CIS, then New Order vs Resistance. The duality of Light vs Dark is simply what the Star Wars universe was built upon, BUT, that is why it's nice that stories like SWTOR's class stories zoom in on the individual parts and pieces of each, showing that not all of the Republic is unquestionably good and not all of the Empire is inherently evil. In my opinion, the new story content beginning from Ossus handles that incredibly well and I really get a lot of vanilla game SWTOR vibes. The class stories are without a doubt the best story content in this game, so I am happy to see that narrative quality to be returning in the new story content. But of course, experiences differ and you may view the story otherwise. I can only hope that future story content will be more to your liking
The Lecyllath Legacy
Darth Malgus [EU]
SWTOR Player since November 25th, 2012
And here is my referral link!

Ylliarus's Avatar


Ylliarus
11.12.2019 , 06:19 AM | #134
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSpuds View Post

If Keith spent 1/10th as much time ACTUALLY LISTENING to players as he does bragging about what he has achieved as a player we might start getting somewhere.

Keith is using this game as vehicle for his own Player-Ego.
I believe you grossly mistake why Keith said what he said, the way he did. I see your point, it can come across as bragging about what he has already achieved. However, this has not been his intent. For years players have been saying that the devs have no idea what actually playing the game means or that they are disconnected from the playerbase by not playing the game. I myself have seen the often ludicrious line of thinking expressed of "the devs don't even play the game", which is just silly thinking if you ask me. Thus, what Keith tried to do here - and may not have entirely succeeded in it - was trying to show that the devs do play their own game and that they understand their own mechanics they have put into the game. That said, I agree that the tone of that part of Keith's message can come across as showing off what he has already achieved and how fast he did. Yet, the fact that you are inclined to believe that as the more likely explanation for the tone of his message or the intent of it, suggests to me that you may hold Keith and the devs in too negative a light. This is your right of course and over the course of years, I think it is a side-effect of low levels of meaningful communication. But what I am trying to say by pointing this out to you, is to not let your anger or frustration cloud everything.

The fact is, we did get a meaningful piece of communication from Keith, as he informed us what is going to happen until the end of the year and what they'll be trying to fix before the Christmas holidays. Disregarding that is unfair, because we got what we wanted: information on where things stand and which direction they'll be heading. So I can also understand the position the devs are in, because when they don't give information, they get hate. But when they do give information, they also get hate for giving information. You see the problem here, I hope? It almost comes across as if the devs won't be able to please the playerbase no matter what they do and that part might not be entirely the fault of a lack of communication on part of the devs (although it is a factor nonetheless), but I believe it is also part of an inherent hostility and negativity on part of the playerbase that may not entirely be justified, in my opinion.

Naturally, I could be wrong as to this, but I do feel that the playerbase can be unreasonable at times in their attitude towards the devs. Of course, criticism has to be given when its due, for example, the crafting system that was introduced in Onslaught deserves all criticism it can get because it's plain bad. Yet, the fact that Keith has communicated to us, especially with the amount of information that he conveyed to us, shouldn't be getting this amount of hostility and negativity. Yes, the devs need to communicate more than they do, you're absolutely right in that. But then, I'd say we need to appreciate the moments when they do communicate even more and not throw heaps of hate, hostility and negativity on them like is happenig now. Note that by "hate, hostility and negativity" I explicitly and solely mean the insults, hate and toxic attitudes that have been expressed in this thread and others, not any form of criticism supported by reasonable argumentation, clear examples and constructive criticism to help the game improve and perform better.
The Lecyllath Legacy
Darth Malgus [EU]
SWTOR Player since November 25th, 2012
And here is my referral link!

DreadtechSavant's Avatar


DreadtechSavant
11.12.2019 , 06:26 AM | #135
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSpuds View Post
Actually, in my experience "most" of the people I know in game just stopped engaging with this PoS and went and played something else.

Rewarding Bioware by being stupid enough to play this Gear-Grind will just encourage them to do it again.

Well done for ruining the game even more than it already was.

All The Best
So says a player that's still subbing! Also maybe as a very negative player you just play with players just as negative. Like minded players tend to find each other.

There are some things with 6.0 I don't like and have said so, I agree some bugs that seem to never go away really is not good and yes BW should do better in areas like that. Gearing is not an issue for me and for what I play most bugs are not either, but still think for players it does affect its not really expectable more so if you pay to play as a sub. Most positive players like myself still have issues with the game and how BW run it, we just don't cling on to the negative areas to the point it ruins our enjoyment of the game. I mean really why are you still here if you think it's so bad? You know full well by now it's not going to change. That's a question many players like you and DarthSpuds should think about. Why are you still playing if the game is so bad? As for DarthSpuds question of why aren't BW listening! really means why aren't BW listening to me! Maybe because not everyone wants what you want.

DarthSpuds's Avatar


DarthSpuds
11.12.2019 , 06:58 AM | #136
Quote: Originally Posted by Ylliarus View Post
But when they do give information, they also get hate for giving information. You see the problem here, I hope?.
Yes, I see the problem, do you?

The reason the Devs still "get hate" when they do deign to lower themselves to communicate with us is that 95% of the time that communication demonstrates, beyond any shadow of doubt, that they have not listened to us at all.

Take Keith's comments on Crafting.
Quote:
Crafting changes – it begins! Yes, we’re taking a hard look at crafting and will make some adjustments starting with this patch.
Some adjustments? What does that even mean? Unless they are rolling back at least 50% of the changes they have just made to Crafting they are not even getting close to making any significant improvement.

In fact the most expeditious way to improve crafting would be to scrap 6.0 Crafting altogether. There is not one single change they made to Crafting is 6.0 that is worthy of remaining in the game.

Don't believe me? Look at Steve's post earlier in the thread: https://www.swtor.com/community/show...0&postcount=71

Bioware have done their usual, dishonest dirty-trick here.
They have broken something 100% so when they rollback on 50% of those changes we'll be expected to thank them for listening to us and only breaking it 50%.

I for one am not stupid enough to fall for that more than once, and Bioware had that one and only chance way back when Command Crates fist dropped.

Anyone still falling for it needs to take a long hard look at themselves in a mirror, and start trying to find some self-respect.

All The Best
#Is-This-As-Good-As-It-Gets?

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DarthSpuds's Avatar


DarthSpuds
11.12.2019 , 07:06 AM | #137
Quote: Originally Posted by DreadtechSavant View Post
So says a player that's still subbing! Also maybe as a very negative player you just play with players just as negative. Like minded players tend to find each other.

There are some things with 6.0 I don't like and have said so, I agree some bugs that seem to never go away really is not good and yes BW should do better in areas like that. Gearing is not an issue for me and for what I play most bugs are not either, but still think for players it does affect its not really expectable more so if you pay to play as a sub. Most positive players like myself still have issues with the game and how BW run it, we just don't cling on to the negative areas to the point it ruins our enjoyment of the game. I mean really why are you still here if you think it's so bad? You know full well by now it's not going to change. That's a question many players like you and DarthSpuds should think about. Why are you still playing if the game is so bad? As for DarthSpuds question of why aren't BW listening! really means why aren't BW listening to me! Maybe because not everyone wants what you want.
1) My sub is cancelled, I am able to log in for as long as there is time remaining on the Sub. I'll exercise my ability to comment on the appalling state of this game for as long as I can.

2) I am not playing the game. Ran my 4 main toons through the new content, saw how grindy and RNG dependent it was, saw how badly broken crafting was, and have not logged in since.

3) It's not about "listening to me" - it's about "listening to players LIKE me" who are leaving the game over where it is heading. This game once had over 100 Servers just in the US, it had a similar amount in Europe and the Rest Of The World. It now has five, TOTAL! How long are you and others like going to keep on pretending that is not a bad sign?

All The Best
#Is-This-As-Good-As-It-Gets?

If you think my comment has been helpful in anyway please >>Click Here<< for the Refer A Friend Bonus.

JainiaDral's Avatar


JainiaDral
11.12.2019 , 07:59 AM | #138
Quote: Originally Posted by Ylliarus View Post
To each their own of course and I agree with you that there are varying levels of evil and good in both factions, that's entirely true. And of course, you're also correct in that there's always varying shades of grey between the black and white. However, the core thought of the Republic vs Empire, Jedi vs Sith story is the fight of good against evil, that's always been the core of every Star Wars story. First it was Empire vs Rebellion, then Republic vs CIS, then New Order vs Resistance. The duality of Light vs Dark is simply what the Star Wars universe was built upon, BUT, that is why it's nice that stories like SWTOR's class stories zoom in on the individual parts and pieces of each, showing that not all of the Republic is unquestionably good and not all of the Empire is inherently evil. In my opinion, the new story content beginning from Ossus handles that incredibly well and I really get a lot of vanilla game SWTOR vibes. The class stories are without a doubt the best story content in this game, so I am happy to see that narrative quality to be returning in the new story content. But of course, experiences differ and you may view the story otherwise. I can only hope that future story content will be more to your liking
Well, the core thought means very little to me in general. One can say, "Pubs are good and the Imps are bad," based on this central idea. But when that idea isn't actually shown through the story, it ceases to have meaning. Ossus tried to show the Pubs are good and more or less did that. It definitely did show the Imps were bad. Aside from that, everything else followed in the vein of that well known Rush song, "Tell, Don't Show." #sorrynotsorry

I don't think that narrative quality was there at all in what skimpy bits of story we were dealt in Onslaught. And that's the problem. It was all very paint-by-numbers generic. Lots of Iokath and story copy-paste of dialog as a token nod to the class stories. That cheapened class story content to me during Iokath, and it was even worse here. Watching Onderon's rich culture, developed so well in KOTOR 2, get little to no elaboration or development felt insulting. All in all, you can feel Bioware's budget cuts despite some genuinely beautiful and creative world design.

I'm honestly not that hard to please when it comes to story. Make something interesting or entertaining. Give it a little philosophical or cultural depth. Make it adhere to your own world logic. Don't insult your own well-envisioned characters with stupid actions or lame plots. It doesn't have to be Shakespeare or, hell, even KOTOR 1. It just has to have reasonable gameplay (Ossus didn't and the Meridian flashpoint was the most tedious to date), a story that has decent pacing and flow (KOTET overall was pretty okay that way), and respects the story atmosphere you've already established in previous installments. And, most of all, don't disrespect my toon's story arc on a very basic level.

I don't think SWTOR is ever going to meet those standards again. I'm actually okay with that. I just want my personal farewell to be smooth and to give me some good lasting memories.

DawnAskham's Avatar


DawnAskham
11.12.2019 , 08:51 AM | #139
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSpuds View Post
Yes, I see the problem, do you?

The reason the Devs still "get hate" when they do deign to lower themselves to communicate with us is that 95% of the time that communication demonstrates, beyond any shadow of doubt, that they have not listened to us at all.

Take Keith's comments on Crafting.


Some adjustments? What does that even mean? Unless they are rolling back at least 50% of the changes they have just made to Crafting they are not even getting close to making any significant improvement.

In fact the most expeditious way to improve crafting would be to scrap 6.0 Crafting altogether. There is not one single change they made to Crafting is 6.0 that is worthy of remaining in the game.

Don't believe me? Look at Steve's post earlier in the thread: https://www.swtor.com/community/show...0&postcount=71

Bioware have done their usual, dishonest dirty-trick here.
They have broken something 100% so when they rollback on 50% of those changes we'll be expected to thank them for listening to us and only breaking it 50%.

I for one am not stupid enough to fall for that more than once, and Bioware had that one and only chance way back when Command Crates fist dropped.

Anyone still falling for it needs to take a long hard look at themselves in a mirror, and start trying to find some self-respect.

All The Best
The question I find myself asking is this...

Are Bioware so grossly incompetent as to completely miss the cumulative exponential impacts (all negative to players) from the changes made, whether due to ignorance on the part of the developers or just poor management and resourcing, or are they that calculating in pushing the most absurdly negative changes possible in an effort to distract everyone when they roll back only some small portion?

Either answer isn't good, so it really doesn't matter - evil genius or just plain stupid results in the same thing - a decent but small story release trashed by egregiously bad changes to the parts of the game beyond the story.

Darklighter's Avatar


Darklighter
11.12.2019 , 03:17 PM | #140
Quote: Originally Posted by JainiaDral View Post
You know, as someone living in a real-life Empire right now and seeing everything that was built up over centuries of popular struggle get dismantled by a reality TV show wrecking ball, that type of story really holds no appeal to me at all. I'm repulsed enough by reality
How do you even get out of bed in the morning.....THE WORLD IS ENDING!


The Force shall free me.