My Three Days has ended as an Advanced Prototype. I did not break any new ground outside of the non-RS discussion, but from the sounds of it several Players had already done it without thinking about it. I want to apologize to Hizoka for my past comments on AP. I want to especially thank Mapex for his clear guidance and constructive criticisms. Thank you to Karandor for the Healthy debates about style and positioning. Thanks to Assault trooper, agooz, and many others who pushed me to keep going. Thanks to xsorus for the push to try the non-RS build. Most of all thanks to exphryl, your angry diatribes and vitrol were a big reason I decided to look deeper into a much maligned tree so thank you because we all know that no one can be that rude and angry all the time (I think he is a closet AP man).

Thank you for all the input, advice, encouragement, and for my pvp team who allowed me the privilege to respec for awhile. While I have gone back to Pyro for now. When 1.2 hits you will see me running around as an AP. I enjoyed the style, the play, and the learned alot about a disrespected group of players and the AP/Tactics tree. HERE is my story.

I decided to play for 3 days with my regular team as an Advanced Prototype tree. My goal was to learn and play the much-maligned tree to the best of my ability. I am in no way an expert in rotations, talents, nor pvp in general. I decided on two things. I will try to answer any questions that someone might have or try something someone might want me to try.

1. I would spec the way the tree was intended by Bioware to play. Which meant HEC as my cylinder and 31 pts deep. 6/33/2 (I also used the non-RS build).
    
   
2. I would solo queue, world pvp, and group queue and play how I normally would.
   

I rarely solo queue, and play with a tank, healer, and operative team or with a Healer/Arsenal specced Mercenary as my teammate. I do not spend all day pvping. I pvp, quest, and do ops. I play every facet of the game, but find pvp to be the most dynamic. Granted, WZ are nothing compared to pure open world pvp. My guild on Ajunta Pall is going to start a world pvp team, and start some first class world pvp soon.

To give you an idea as to how I play, when bored I will routinely leave my team to go solo someone down. In hutt-ball, I hang around the middle and sides, and play defense using grapple to drag ball carriers back to the middle or into the pit. In Civil War, I constantly tick my teammates off by randomly deciding that I want to try to take a node by myself. In Voidstar, I focus on the ranged and healers, and leave the door capping to my teammates. I routinely grapple people off our Operative and healer, and use my taunts whenever I think of it. In essence, I range from selfishly trying to pad my kills and stats to being the ultimate teammate.

My teammates have routinely attempted to get me to go offensive in Huttball, but I hate carrying the ball, and generally carry it only long enough to pass. After hundreds of huttballs, I finally scored my first goal, and it was not intentional. I got punted by some guy in the middle and suddenly found myself close to their ball-carrier who was in the pit when we were trying to score. I grappled him up to the rails, killed him, and then carried the ball into the score. We generally leave the ball carrying to our Operative as he hides on the rails somewhere and we pass it to him, as he runs into the score.

Anyways having said all that, I have gotten on the forums recently to ridicule the defenders of AP. Stating that by using logic and common sense, it’s obvious to see that the burst of Pyro is significantly higher and without slows it makes no sense to ever spec AP. Personally, I love the AP playstyle, and the look and feel of the Retractable Blade. It is the melee PT spec. However, I will admit I spoke from a point of blindness, as I had never played with the spec at all. I simply relied on the views of others much smarter than me, and went with it.

As a Pyro, I have been voted MVP numerous tiems, and am well known enough that if I run into some guilds they will hunt me in a WZ. I routinely solo’d healers, topped the damage and kills, and usually ended every match with 7-10 medals. I would routinely run off to solo turrets and had no problem taking down two guys as long as they weren’t both snipers. I am not stating all this to talk about how good I am, but to give you an idea as to my playstyle and my thought process while playing.

Anyways, I recently spoke with my pvp team, and after talking over it with my team they allowed me the privilege of respeccing to AP for awhile to see how it plays. I appreciate their willingness to sacrifice their own feelings to do some testing.

EDIT: Update 04/10/12

Live Rotation (without Rail shot)The proc rate is so low that it's not even worth bothering to use it unless you want to screw up your rotation. A Crit based RS hits for less than Immolate, rocket punch, or Flame burst crit. Since th e proc rate is so low is there any reason to use it except in pvp situations where you have a runner? There is now two main schools of thought a No RB/Gut & RS/HiB and a full AP rotation.

Since 1.2 is on Thursday here is the two possilbe builds and rotations based on discussions and testing.

1.2 (Name in waiting) no RB/RS Gut/HiB builds. The two points in Heavy Stock/Iron Fist are optional if you wish to drop RP from your rotation. It has not been verified that this improves your dps it's simply an alternative pvp build.

So your inherent priority rotation would be:

Prototype Flame Thrower (5stacks)/Pulse Generator

Rocket Punch (free RP)/Stockstrike)

Immolate/Fire Pulse

Flame Burst/Ion Pulse

We essentially take Retractable Blade/Gut and Rail Shot/High Impact Bolt out of the rotation due to it's heat/bullets cost and it's lack of damage compared to the alternative.

Your PVE rotation would essentially look like this:

Missle as you approach, Immolate, FBx2, RP, FBx2, PFT Rinse and repeat

RP is moveable depending on where you are in heat management. However it should always be used somewhere in your FB spam.

Standard Full AP Build

Standard Full Tactics Build

Points in Stabilized armor are considered optional.

PriorityRotation

PFT (5 stacks)

RP (free)

Imm

RB

RS (Charged Gauntlets)

FB

Your PVE rotation would essentially look like this:

Missle as approach, Imm, RB, RP, RS (if procced) FBx4, PFT (rinse and repeat)

RP can be moved anywhere in the rotation where it is needed unless you have 5 stacks of PFT/PG.

I may put together an Adavanced Prototype guide after 1.2 hits with help from our AP community. I look forward to contributions from the many well-thought of and skilled AP players.

DAY 1:

Today was a down day as my team didn’t get online until late so we weren’t able to do a lot of warzones. I spent the day goofing off with Blizz (totally the coolest companion), trying to romance Mako (best female companion without a doubt) and working the GTN for some cash. My goal have been established, and I have analyzed the spec I was going to play.

My original spec thought was 8/31/2 as this is the max possible damage using a 31 point tree as the barometer with which I wish to play. I switched to 6/33/2 though the 1 point in Aim could be moved to reduce Quell's CD without any severe loss. I made the switch after I did a few WZ's when I realized I needed to hold people in place to pull off FlameThrower.

I will say that using it while questing, makes questing a breeze. The 30 percent speed increase is easily noticeable in the time it takes to move between targets. It’s also absolutely essential for a tree with no decent ranged damage skills.

When my crew finally logged in, we began to pvp. I will have to admit, I did 3 battles, and was severely disheartened as even our tank was doing more damage than me. It was at this point I realized that somewhere between questing and pvp I had accidentally clicked off the Cylinder and my first 3 WZ experiences were a waste.

After a good hearty laugh at my expense, we queued up again, and with HEC active and full buffs and my normal stims we began the process. I immediately noticed a difference in the playstyle and rotation. In pve questing, things are static so the 5 stack to Flame Thrower, and rotation was easy to maintain. However in pvp with the constant switching, running, chasing, the rotation was very difficult to handle initially.

As a Pyro, my rotation was this TD/IM as I close in, rail shot, and then rapid shots as I continue to close in on the target. That’s a sizeable amount of burst before I even get close enough to hit him. Once I am within range, It’s pop adrenals fb, rs, RP, rs rotation while weaving in defensive CD’s. The burst can be incredible and with the slow on CqC it’s almost impossible for people to get away.

My first immediate reaction upon running towards a target was the notice that there is absolutely nothing outside of the lackluster missles to fire at while closing the distance. The 30 percent run speed increase then becomes essential for me to close the distance on a target I am attempting to reach.

Once I am on a target my rotation was much longer than FB/RP/RS, it now became Retractable Blade, Railshot, Immolate, Flame burst, Rocket punch or I would go FB, RP, Immolate, RB, RS. It would then turn into FB spam until a 5 stack. Now here is where I ran into an issue initially. I would have a 5 stack forever because it was next to impossible to keep a guy in range when I stopped to drop a Flame Thrower on me. The rotation was seemed longer than the Pyro rotation.

After a few WZ’s where my numbers were 200k less in each one, I was ready to switch back to Pyro. However, my team refused to let me do it stating to give it a few days until I get a real good handle on the rotation and playstyle. So we continued on, we worked together to find the best possible way to use the tree. On our 5th WZ of the day, we hit upon an idea that saw my numbers jump dramatically. The Op or myself would stun a guy right after the 5 stack collected at which point I would open up Flamethrower and barbeque the guy to death.

We won all 10 matches we played last night, and in each my numbers were significantly lower across the board. I did an average of 200k less damage, had an average of 20 kills less, died half the amount of times I did in the past, and learned to use grapple all the time instead of saving it. Here are several points that hit me after day 1.

Negatives

1. The damage decrease (burst especially) is easily noticeable. I could not solo a good healer, and it would take a while for them to realize I was unloading them.
   
2. No good-ranged attacks make the lack of a slow, mind-boggling.
   
3. The burst difference is significant especially opening.
   
4. The rotation is longer and a little more clunky especially in pvp.
   
5. The “utility” of the class is seriously overblown as it provides less utility than Shield tech or any hybrid.
   
6. HEC is probably the worst cylinder, but the damage is noticeable in Rocket Punches and Flame Burst.
   
7. The Free Rocket Punch makes no sense in this tree. It’s does not finish the cooldown, and since most of your time between punches is spent spamming Flame Burst or refreshing RB, you could have triggered the free RP several times.
   

Positives

1. The reduced cooldown on Grapple is amazing in Huttball. There is no need to be as judicious or save it.
   
2. The 15 percent increase in speed is an absolute blast when closing in on other melee. Plus it makes kiting those marauders easier.
   
3. 20 percent stun damage reduction is noticeable as I don’t die in a stun unless being triple teamed.
   
4. HO is almost game changing if I would remember to use it more often.
   
5. People Reaction to Immolate borders on the hilarious as almost everyone thinks that it’s an AoE and flees from the spot. Plus it makes it hard to target you as you run through it. I used it so many times next to doors, turrents, and in Huttball, and watched people flee thinking it was an aoe.
   
6. My healer noticed a significant ease of healing me. I think it’s more because I rarely got hammered as I did on my Pyro build.
   
7. Improved Electrocute is essential to pull off Flame Thrower.
   
8. Flame Thrower is absolutely amazing when allowed to go full duration. A healer cannot heal through the amount of damage it does. It crits for as high as 2.5k for each tick. (I am sure it could go higher if geared for it). The burst when dropping a 5 stack on a target who was stunned can be as high as 12k if you get 6 consecutive crits (haha). The most I got was 3 in a row, and it killed the guy.
   
9. Immolate hits significantly harder than I assumed. The burst of Immolate – FB – RP is significant, but not as powerful as a RS-RP-RS-FB-RS.
   
10. I never once had an energy issue. I could switch targets, spam FB, and use Flame sweep followed by FlameThrower and still not have to worry about heat management. (which again boggles the mind as to why free RP is there)
    

Day 1 Conclusion:

It’s a significantly different playstyle than Pyro, not easier or more skilled just different. Despite protests the damage output is severly lacking unless you can get FlameThrower off. Stuns are essential in this spec to pull off the FT 6 sec. I can’t understand why no slow was put into this tree. The tree has absolutely no sudden burst compared to any other dps class. It’s fine in pve where static fights allow you to unleash FT on demand, but in the dynamics of pvp it becomes essential that you use Electrocute or teammates to set up FlameThrower.

End of Day 1 Suggestions:

The slows coming in 1.2 are an absolute blessing and essential. Change Flame Barrage to reset the CD on Immolate the way Flame Shield does with Rocket Punch with the 6.5 sec CD on it, this would give the AP tree a much needed burst bringing it more inline with Pyro and the other dps trees. The free Rocket Punch is not needed with this tree. Having Immolate added to Flame Barrage doesn’t resolve the issue that you usually are sitting on the free RP anyways so it doesn’t matter. RB needs either a slightly more powerful dot or a slightly more powerful initial attack. Even with the inherent boosts from the tree it does less than any dot Pyro puts out.

DAY 2:

Today was a short and bad day for me and AP. I was a bit under the weather, and my normal team was out dealing with real life. That left me to several hours of soloing, questing, and a guild FP run. This day was the first day I took AP into a pve environment to see it’s ability to produce reliable dps as well as working on my rotation within the framework of pvp.

The day began on a good note in Huttball, where I spent the time destroying uncoordinated teams where I could pull them away from healers. Remember I play a lot of defense and middle in Huttball. I use the extra 10 sec on grapple to grapple once in the middle and once when they are on the rails. Against a poorly coordinated team, I was able to use HO repeatedly to escape and Kolto Overload and Venting to get far enough away to heal and return. At the end of the first battle, I was tops in Damage, kills, and medals. I still haven’t been able to get past 6 medals. I was also able to wipe out two guys with a well timed Stun on one followed by PFT.

At this point, I decided to wrap up some planets while waiting for my team to log on, which I found out later they were going to be gone for the day. Unlike most pvp lovers, I do not hang out in Imperial fleet waiting for the next queue and talking about how great I am. I really enjoy questing and the story lines on the planets. So I leave with everyone’s favorite Jawa, and begin attempting to finish the questlines in Nar Shadaa, Hoth, Alderaan, and Belvasis. I will say this much, questing as AP dps has shorter downtimes than pyro. Because PT is an AOE therefore I can wipe out 3-4 for everyone 1. It also has a small self heal in Kolto vents that I pop at the beginning of a damage section to reduce the amount of healing afterwards.

After finishing a planet, and putting the harvested items on the GTN, I started up my pvp soloing again. Huttball was first, and facing us was a group of well coordinated PuBs with no guild name and 2 Troopers, 2 Smugglers, 2 Consulars, and 2 Knights. For the first 5 minutes I thought wow, that is the coolest grouping ever to get. I didn’t think it could be a premade, until the first time I dropped the Healing Trooper and grappled their Scoundrel into a flame pit. At this point, the Shadow and the Vanguard made it appoint to harass me endlessly.

I will admit. I got rattled, and began to get angry at being burned out and stunned seconds before I got a kill. They were really good in that they would run away everytime they started to lose until they got back to a healer. A few badly timed grapples and missed grapples and suddenly we were down 3-1. It only got worse especially for me. My desire to get vengeance on the Shadow continually got me away from playing defense, and destroyed by the Slinger, Trooper, and Sage. We got the score to 3-2 when a fellow PT grappled the ball carrier as it had 20 percent health up to them into our goal. At which point, I reacted so poorly I will have to apologize to the player today for angrily demanding they find another class to ruin.

For the next 5 straight matches, I ran into the same group. It was brutal. I missed having my regular team with me, and I was unable to maintain any type of fluid play because I was being grappled, cc’d, pulled, mezzed and stunned. I will freely admit, the sage and the Commando for the republics were incredible players. The sage was so good that he actually wiped out two of us while only losing half his health. He baited me into wasting quell and using my CC breaker on the wrong CC so he could use his big one on me.

The rest of their team was average, but with two superior teammates who captained them it was an exercise in futility. I will admit that most frustrating thing at all was that against a well-coordinated team it was impossible to get them stopped long enough to pop FlameThrower. It became obvious that they knew I was ap, and when facing me they would never stop, but ran back and forth through me repeatedly to negate the advantage of PFT.

Having said all that, I did finally get a group PFT off and wiped out their shadow (20 percent health), sage (50 percent health), and Commando (went from 75 percent to 25 percent). Unfortunately after that time, I was interrupted, grappled, and mezzed any time I popped PFT.

After 6 straight losses and 3 straight horrible performances by myself (I overheated in one battle because I was so frustrated I just spammed Flame Sweep), my guild and a friend asked me to run a Flashpoint with them. I figured why not since this would give me a break and would be a great experience to try out AP in a static environment. When a boss stood still for 6-7 GCD, I was able to put out a sizeable amount of damage. However in non-boss or heavy movement boss fights, the lack of a semi-decent ranged attack was easily spotted. On short burst sequences where immolate/RS/RP were all on CD, and we needed to switch to a different target to blow it up. I was stuck with FB to 5 and wasting Flamethrower on non-elites.

On target switching I was frustrated because AP is a setup and RNG build. I actually went 3 rotations waiting for Charged Gauntlets to proc. At which point, I figured I would just use Rail Shot. I used it and 2 seconds later I get the proc which faded away just as Rail shot was coming off CD. I couldn’t seem to get PFT down in my rotation unless it was a boss fight. It either wore off between switches especially if I had to run or I popped it 3 secs before a guy died. By the final fight, I had the rotation for pve down pat. In fact, I pumped out too much dps, pulled the boss off our superiorly geared tank, and died. At that point, some of them wanted me to take them pvp, I declined and said I needed to get some sleep.

I am sorry that my testing was not full on this day. I will admit that I was way off my game today. I routinely lost my rotation, and allowed a well-coordinated team to knock me out of my element. I absolutely did not play well today.

Day 2 Conclusions:

AP is not a forgiving spec. If you screw up your rotation you take a significant damage loss. It doesn’t matter if it’s pvp or pve. With Pyro because of it’s potential burst, you can miss time something and still make up for it later. Without PFT, there is no noticeable burst. Immolate/RP/FB is not very impressive compared to Pyro’s RS/RP/RS/FB burst. However, PFT is very very impressive when you get it off. I found it frustrating in pve when I suffered a KB. It has been pointed out that I am using HO as a defensive tool instead of an offensive tool.

Day 2 Recommendations:

1.2 will go a long way to making this spec more efficient in pvp. I can guarantee you, that there will be a myriad of complaints on the forums the day PFT with a 70 percent slow and unable to be interrupted erupts on someone. Using HO as an offensive weapon before you use PFT is an absolute must. It has a 30 sec CD so saving it as a defensive weapon is a mistake. I am revamping my keybinds to allow me more freedom to use HO as a weapon to make PFT and my initial attacks better. Using it as a gap closer is still not something I see as being logical. The lack of a decent jump to a target or the 4-10m barrier no man’s land is still extremely odd for a class that is the most melee spec to have no dps or 4-10m closer.

DAY 3:

Today was a day that showed the strengths and weakness of AP. I won a few games and led in damage a few times, but against a well coordinated pug I was rendered ineffective several times. I did an FP and my thought remains the same.

In PVE Environments, with RNG going full plast RS/HIB is worth using on crits. Crit wise it does hit harder than a non-crit FB. However FB gives me the option of applying a stack of PFT. Since getting as many PFT's as I can is my goal RS seems to still factors out to be a dps loss. I would need to actually use a simulator to find out by how much, but there isn't a clear cut reason on Live to have RS in a rotation except for special circumstances.

In pvp, RS and RB are complete wastes except when nailing a runner when your grapple is on CD. The energy cost and time spent waiting for a proc make it not worth the effort to add it in to it. I would recommend speccing out of RS for live, when 1.2 hits speccing back into it will be worth it because you will have guaranteed crits on CD. Though I have a feeling that you would be just as effective if you skipped the entire RS/CG portion and have a pretty decent survivability and control aspect.

1.2 Possible Non-RS build

This was the build that I figured would be the best way to knock out a non-RS build for those who wish to put together a serious PFT burst aspect. I also tested and PFT buff does buff DFA but not Flame Sweep.

I was able to put HO to it's full amazing usage in about 3 different aspects. HO is amazing in Huttball. I was actually able to score the winning goal with 3 seconds to go and their entire team coming at me thanks to HO. However, HO loses it's effectiveness in Civil war and Voidstar. Granted I am still learning the class, but suffice it to be told AP had me rattled from time to time. I do find Kolto vents heal to be weak, but if you pop it early in a fight it can help you out.

I went against a Republic premade the rest of the day. This was the issue against a pretty poor communicating single minded premade AP can destroy with aoe adn well timed HO/PFT burst. However, a well-coordinated team will never let you get it off without interrupting or moving out of the way to make PFT be ineffective.

Day 3 Conclusions:

Extensive testing is still required to finalize the optimum rotation. However, in WZ's as AP is currently designed both RB and RS are pretty much useless so dropping them from the rotation is better in the long run. Without a suitable slow (which will happen in 1.2), PFT is all about perfect timing which makes it very difficult to pull off. It is my conclusion that it will take a higher skill level to master because of it's positioning and damage burst requirements than a well played Pyro. That being said, the real question is why? No matter how much effort you currently put in, you will not match the same skill and effort put into Pyro. I was glad to get back to Pyro at the end of Day 3. I missed the burst and the slows, and the fear in the eyes of the opposing players when half their health disappeared in a single rotation.

Day 3 Recommendations:

On Live, while I understand the desire to play AP it's frustratingly broken as a tree. Free RP and Charged Gauntlets as currently constructed are poorly designed for this tree. In 1.2, Charged Gauntlets picks up because you it's now designed around the RB dot which everyone hates, but hey if it's going to give me a guaranteed crit than I should absolutely keep it up. There will be too schools of thought and builds in pvp in 1.2, the non-RS build, and the RS build. The non-RS build will most likely be less effective in pve, but have greater control in pvp environments. Granted this is all hypothesis, because a non-RS build will hit PFT 1.5 seconds sooner each time which guarantees 1 full pft more every 4-5 rotations depending on RS usage.

Mapex in the thread said it better than I could "I have to thank you for explaining what I've been trying to say forever about Flame Thrower. That ability alone makes 30% of the tree thanks to Prototype Flame Thrower; it's a huge source of bursty DPS as well as cast/channel pushback (great for owning healers). People always underestimate it, but when they catch on they know to interrupt it. The slow at 5 stacks, Immolate adding a stack, and uninterruptibility from 1.2 will make Flame Thrower borderline overpowered; I expect the 70% slow to be reduced, especially since it's operating in a cone AOE."

This is the key of the build. Your burst currently is tied into PFT, which will be effective in pvp in 1.2

I did the exact same thing recently. Been assault since I started. Decided to play Tactics this week. Sorry I am a trooper so I will use those names

Sustained damage was ok if I could stay on someone. Ion Pulse hits much harder in Tactics than assault. Fire Pulse is great, but 15 second cool down is way too long.

I hardly notice the 15% run speed. My burst was kind of crappy, you'd get a decent bit off with Sticky > FP > Stock strike

After that you have 15 seconds of Gut/Ion pulses.

Guts damage is really terrible and not worth the GCD or 2 ammo half the time.

I found that I felt like a Marauders pathetic little brother. My damage wasn't terribly great, have no snare. I also don't have any kind of force leap. I also don't have their great defensive cool downs.

In the end it is just a below average spec that doesn't bring anything to the table.

I did however usually come close to my regular Assault damage, however I was never able to pressure healers enough where they would even have to worry about me.

TL;DR

Sustained DPS is over, and an average burst cycle every 15 seconds. Utility isn't great at all, not sure why people say it is.

What would make it better in my eyes? It needs storm (force leap equiv). Fire Pulse needs to have a 9 sec cool down like stock strike.

Make the proc that makes stock strike free also increase its damage by 25%.

Just so no one is confused by your post ;p.

Ion Pulse = Flame Burst

Stockstrike = Rocket Punch

Fire Pulse = Immolate

Sticky Grenade = Explosive Dart

Bullets = Heat

I found Explosive/Sticky to be extremely underwhelming and not really worth the time invested.

While slightly derailing, but pertinent to a thread that does have AP (I myself have played full AP for long durations at times to a lackluster feeling of it once it is said and done. PvP or PvE, although PvE the shortcoming are far fewer and not as noticeable other then "burst" phases in some fights)

It's partially why the AP/Pyro hybrids are THAT much better than Full AP. It basically gives you all the benefits AP *should* have while keeping the great benefits of HO/FT etc. Rather depressing if you think about it. Even without the Crit % Boost talents in the hybrid you make up for the damage by more RS/Amazing Heat management/CGC.

Also, least from my recollection, the RB Snare being added in 1.2 isn't a long duration so it will still be relatively easy for an opponent to get away (unless you feel like being in melee hopefully spamming a poor damaging ability)

AP needs more work, I agree.

- Flame Barrage is a waste, I agree - this ability has no place in this tree. Replace it with something like this : "Immolate has a 100% chance and Flame Burst has a 50% chance to grant two stacks of Prototype Flame Thrower instead of one."

- The snare is too short, should be 9 at the very least, upwards to even 15 seconds, to bring the duration in line with the DoT portion.

- Charged Gauntlets makes no sense, very little synergy with the tree. AP's HiB's don't even hit that hard and are on a long cooldown, so what good will a guaranteed crit really do?

- Serrated Blades is crap. It should perhaps increase both the instant and DoT's damage by 30%.

- Stabilized Armour should persist 3-4 seconds after the stun wears off.

While slightly derailing, but pertinent to a thread that does have AP (I myself have played full AP for long durations at times to a lackluster feeling of it once it is said and done. PvP or PvE, although PvE the shortcoming are far fewer and not as noticeable other then "burst" phases in some fights)

 

It's partially why the AP/Pyro hybrids are THAT much better than Full AP. It basically gives you all the benefits AP *should* have while keeping the great benefits of HO/FT etc. Rather depressing if you think about it. Even without the Crit % Boost talents in the hybrid you make up for the damage by more RS/Amazing Heat management/CGC.

 

Also, least from my recollection, the RB Snare being added in 1.2 isn't a long duration so it will still be relatively easy for an opponent to get away (unless you feel like being in melee hopefully spamming a poor damaging ability)

Again, my goal was to attempt to do a deep AP build and use HEC for better synergy. Everyone is well aware of the benefits of Ironfist, and the other AP/Pyro Hybrids. However they both require the usage of different cylinders, and neither gets immolate. Immolate is the iconic ability to this tree.

AP needs more work, I agree.

 

- Flame Barrage is a waste, I agree - this ability has no place in this tree. Replace it with something like this : "Immolate has a 100% chance and Flame Burst has a 50% chance to grant two stacks of Prototype Flame Thrower instead of one."

Prototype is already up in a really really short period of time, and in 1.2 Immolate adds a stack as well. The problem still lies in the fact that you have to stop the enemy from moving long enough to use Flame Thrower. Granted the slow will benefit this ability. Plus it will no longer be interruptable so that's a big plus.

The snare is too short, should be 9 at the very least, upwards to even 15 seconds, to bring the duration in line with the DoT portion.

We have a speed increase, and the slow is inline with every other slow in the PT tree. I don't see an issue with it since their main goal is to get us to use PFT.

Charged Gauntlets makes no sense, very little synergy with the tree. AP's HiB's don't even hit that hard and are on a long cooldown, so what good will a guaranteed crit really do?

I don't mind charged guantlets. I do hate how it often fades away before i ever get to use it because of the 9 sec CD on Rocket Punch and the 15 sec CD on Rail shot. Rotation of Immolate/Flame Burst - Rocket Punch - Rail Shot - Flame Burst stack to 5 - Flame thrower and the proc is gone.

Serrated Blades is crap. It should perhaps increase both the instant and DoT's damage by 30%.

I don't think anyone would argue with this change, not even those we attack.

Stabilized Armour should persist 3-4 seconds after the stun wears off.

No, that would make it a huge overpowered affect. 20 percent reduction in damage for that long is way way too over the top.

Good ideas though.

Can't wait to read Days 2 and Day 3. I have a feeling you're going to find something that will be game changing for that spec.

haha, Not sure anything i find will be game changing. There are bigger proponents of the spec, and a few who can probably tell you more about it. I do think that the two main guys who proclaim AP to be way way over the top and abusive at times.

My goal is to simply understand the spec and playstyle a bit more so when I discuss it then I will actually come from a more understanding point of view.

The only thing that I have found to be of any value so far is that it's just as RNG as Pyro in that you want to use RP when you proc the free buff with FB, and you want to wait on Rail shot until you get the auto crit proc.

Essentially AP comes down to a priority system.

1. Flamethrower (5 stacks of Proto)
   
2. Rail shot (crit procced)
   
3. Rocket Punch
   
4. Immolate
   
5. Retractable Blade
   
6. Flame Burst
   
7. Flamethrower (any stacks before 5)
   

What Gear are you wearing? I think the set bonus/level of gear comes into play here for sure, eliminator or PVE combat tech im assuming as your a pyro normally speaking just wondering though.

I haven't changed my gear at all still rolling the same gear. Technically, I am still wearing the Taris heroic Powertech gold/red gear. It's my favorite style of gear. I really hate the bulky look of everything else BH offers. I really want the Powertech Foundry gear mmmm. I just change the mods. I am running heavy on power/surge mods. I am short on my expertise currently which could lead to some slight dips. Honestly I dont' think there is much of a difference in what's required for each tree.

With the nerf coming who knows what really going to happen to the pyros out there.

Pyro will not see a major nerf, it's a minor nerf that a little baffling since most of us are reliant on the procs to vent heat. It's going to be a bit of work to rebuild it, and it's going to keep them from being able to wreck someone in 6 seconds, but it's not as bad as it's being painted.

I do love retractable blades animation i dont love its heat. I go back and forth between IF and Pyro but when I was AP i hated it didnt know the mechanics at the time of launch so it was like this sucks going tank so I dont die. Look forward to more.

RB's animation is smexy, but it's sound is dog ugly, and everyone immediately knows you are an AP at that moment. The heat is nothing as a full AP. Plus I only use it every 12-15 secs or when switching to a new target. Unless Rail shot is coming off cooldown it's the least important skill I have. It does hardly any damage and the dot is weak enough where it's only worth applying to proc rail shot.

I noticed that you specced into Kolto Vents. Did you find it useful enough to justify the point, because I never did; 7% health over 10 seconds isn't really worth using Vent Heat on its own for IMO, and I rarely have heat troubles as it is as a AP that I really need to use Vent Heat too often, thus having an added benny on it is nice and worth the point. For me, it ends up sitting there as a wasted point.

Maybe try taking the point out of that and that last point out of Steely Resolve, and put them into Hitman for Day 2? I've found that 6 second Quell is really noticeable, especially when you're trying to harass and lockdown a healer or turret caster.

Just a suggestion based on my own experiences as AP! Liking the thread, and I'll be following it.

EDIT: Also, unlike your priority, I usually Immo before I RP when I can, especially at the beginning of the fight; if you're specced into Flame Barrage, you might as well use it and get that guaranteed heat-free Rocket Punch to start off, right? Then I put up Retractable Blade and go for the Rail Shot. When 1.2 comes around, though, I'll probably put up RB first and give the DoT ticks a chance to proc it, but we're talking about Live.

200k less on average? I've spent more then 1 week in AP after months in Pyro.

I hope I'm not one of the ones who you think is over the top. I've said Pyro has insane burst, but I solo Q a ton, and Pyro is very squishy. I have more deaths in Pyro then in AP. My avg less damage is about 40-60k only.

I time my carbonize with my FT. I'll let my stacks sit at 5 until I get 2+ together, carbonize FT. Mine tick crited for 2.7k.

Because of this post, I decided to go back to Pyro to make sure I was thinking correctly.

3 matches in. Very much more squishy. I run HEGC in AP. In AP i can single handily score 2-4 times in a HB match with no help. In pyro no way. In CW/VS i can live longer in AP defending against multiples.

I love the burst of Pyro, esp for PVE. But I love AP and it's Utility in PvP. With the slows coming to AP i think i'll like it more.

It's not for everyone. And I've never said it's on par with Pyro's Burst/Dps. But for me overall in a match they are close. And without running with a healer, hell most of my matches don't even have a pug healer, AP is for me for now.

In ranked with grouping with guranteed healers, I may make a different observation.

Here is the Priority Rotation that I have worked out so far.

Flamethrower (5 stacks of Proto)

Rail shot (crit procced)

Immolate (Procs Flame Barrage)

Rocket Punch (Free Rocket Punch)

Retractable Blade

Flame Burst

Flamethrower (any stacks before 5)

Fixed the rotation for ya, reason Immolate has a 100% chance to pro a free Rocket punch.

Also tweeked your spec a bit.

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301GMZMsr0RrfkdsZb.1 last point anywhere you like, my reasoning for taking "Power Armor" is it stacks with "Stabilized Armor" giving you 22% damage reduction while stunned.

Another version on the spec is a "never ending flame burst spam spec This spec in PvP will let you spam flame burst nonstop and never over heat due to many ways to reduce heat in combat with "Gyroscopic Alignment Jets" & "Prototype Cylinder Ventilation".

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301hZMsr0RrfkdsZbcb.1

I only ever found real success on AP when doing the 31 Points in AP/10 in Shield Tech route while using defensive gear

It was more damage then regular 31 points of shield tech, and stabilized armor made me beefy as hell when running the ball back in the day. if I was guarded, I basically took zero damage while stunned which was extremely useful.

It also wasn't bad cause we were doing a lot of dungeons and raids back then and I could switch over to tank or dps just by changing my gear.

Now with that said, I've played it as just a DPS build, and while it's heat management is nice, and its DPS steady, that doesn't actually work well in PvP, because you need high burst damage to kill most people and that's what Pyro does best.

I personally don't even think with the coming changes that it will help AP much, because as a DPS line it's rather ****... Its honestly a much better defensive line then DPS.

haha, Not sure anything i find will be game changing. There are bigger proponents of the spec, and a few who can probably tell you more about it. I do think that the two main guys who proclaim AP to be way way over the top and abusive at times.

 

My goal is to simply understand the spec and playstyle a bit more so when I discuss it then I will actually come from a more understanding point of view.

 

The only thing that I have found to be of any value so far is that it's just as RNG as Pyro in that you want to use RP when you proc the free buff with FB, and you want to wait on Rail shot until you get the auto crit proc.

 

Essentially AP comes down to a priority system.

 

1. Flamethrower (5 stacks of Proto)
   
2. Rail shot (crit procced)
   
3. Immolate
   
4. Rocket Punch
   
5. Retractable Blade
   
6. Flame Burst
   
7. Flamethrower (any stacks before 5)
   

Yup, this is it (combined with the pros/cons from the day 1 impressions). People are overthinking this spec, especially those that play it for two hours and then give up on it.

I have to thank you for explaining what I've been trying to say forever about Flame Thrower. That ability alone makes 30% of the tree thanks to Prototype Flame Thrower; it's a huge source of bursty DPS as well as cast/channel pushback (great for owning healers). People always underestimate it, but when they catch on they know to interrupt it. The slow at 5 stacks, Immolate adding a stack, and uninterruptibility from 1.2 will make Flame Thrower borderline overpowered; I expect the 70% slow to be reduced, especially since it's operating in a cone AOE.

Also, people downplay the importance of a slow when it comes to burning down a lone enemy. Of course PyroTech does it better - it has both the spammable slow the keep an enemy from retreating behind their allies and the burst to kill them before they can kill you. AP's damage is great and is very capable of burning a target down. However, the lack of the slow means your targets are very easily able to run away from you towards their teammates, robbing you of kills and getting you annihilated by their friends.

I do disagree with your day 1 impressions of Flame Barrage. The Heat-free Rocket Punch is a lifesaver if your Heat gets out of whack as it potentially can in PvP; see Quell spam on its 6 second cooldown and lack of Rapid Shots in the AP priority rotation. In 1.2 when Quell no longer costs Heat, then sure I can see Flame Barrage being useless.

Overall, your day 1 impressions are basically all that needs to be said for the spec. The lack of slow and the mechanical handicaps (not the self-root but the interruptibility and lack of slow) of Flame Thrower are really the only things holding the spec back (I even mentioned them in the AP thread in my signature). In fact I fear the 1.2 changes might overpower the spec and make it the flavor of the month because of how powerful PFT and Retractable Blade have become in the new build. We'll have to wait and see what happens.

Prototype is already up in a really really short period of time, and in 1.2 Immolate adds a stack as well. The problem still lies in the fact that you have to stop the enemy from moving long enough to use Flame Thrower. Granted the slow will benefit this ability. Plus it will no longer be interruptable so that's a big plus.

I'm afraid it might still be a bit too slow, but I haven't played on the PTS, so you might be right. But back to the original point - free Rocket Punch is underwhelming, after all this tree doesn't have heat problems, so it's hardly mandatory. I'd prefer something that'd add some synergy to the tree, that'd make AP more deadly in melee.

We have a speed increase, and the slow is inline with every other slow in the PT tree. I don't see an issue with it since their main goal is to get us to use PFT.

But the slow isn't inline with other snares in the game. You have to rememeber that AP is very much melee-oriented, much more than the Pyrotech (which funnily enough has access to a much more reliable snare) and it doesn't have a real gap closer like the shieldtech does (I don't count the HO as a gap closer, though it can be used in this way somewhat). And I think you'll agree with me that adding a snare to a 15 second DoT is a bit counterproductive - to keep the target snared you need to waste (unlike the Pyro, for an instance) 16 heat on a lackluster attack and refresh the DoT, not letting it to run its full course.

So in a way, the problem with the snare is exacerbated by RB's mediocrity. If RB was a much more potent attack then I would agree that 6 seconds of a 30% snare is sufficient.

I don't mind charged guantlets. I do hate how it often fades away before i ever get to use it because of the 9 sec CD on Rocket Punch and the 15 sec CD on Rail shot. Rotation of Immolate/Flame Burst - Rocket Punch - Rail Shot - Flame Burst stack to 5 - Flame thrower and the proc is gone.

Granted, it's not terrible, but it has little synergy with the tree. Like I've said, a crit on a RS (which is on a 15 second cooldown for us) is a measly increase in the DPS. I'm aware it does add some burst, but it still feels rather clunky in this spec.

I don't think anyone would argue with this change, not even those we attack

Yeah, RB is a bit of a waste currently; only nice to apply a DoT for the RS. You might say it's similar with Incendiary Missle - but it's ranged and you only need 1 point for it anyway.

No, that would make it a huge overpowered affect. 20 percent reduction in damage for that long is way way too over the top.

 

Good ideas though.

Make it 2 seconds then? Doesn't seem so overpowered - and you have to remember that we don't really have great defensive CDs as Vanguards/Pyrotechs.

Trying to use flamethrower whenever you have 5 stacks is not the way to play. You have to make sure you can stun + use HO so that you can't be knocked around. With it getting a snare in 1.2 the stun won't be needed but you should still use it with HO up.

Flamethrower/pulse cannon is very good damage but situational. You will hurt yourself if using that is what you are focusing your playstyle around.

The initial burst of the spec is quite good when you blow adrenal and relic to Immolate, RP, FB until RP or immolate is back up. Retractable blades really is only useful if you're fighting a stealther and want a DoT up or you need the DoT to use a crit RS.

Flameburst/ion pulse hits incredibly hard in this spec. With adrenals going you can easily crit for 2.7-3k with 2.2-2.5k crits the norm without. Gut/RB is a waste of a GCD/ammo to use it instead when you want to go for a quick kill unless you have a crit RS/HiB proc from RP/SS. Once it has a snare it will be much more useful but with your increased movement speed the snare still won't be needed much of the time. It really needs an increase in damage.

Killing healers shouldn't be much of an issue since you have a 6s CD interrupt. Knowing what to interrupt is the key which will be easier once there is a customisable UI and you can have the cast bar with the name of the spell more central. 6s CD with a 4 sec lockout means that unless the caster is standing still and mashing a 1.5s cast (lol flamethrower/pulse cannon) you should be able to keep it permanently interrupted. The best use for FT/PC is to take out guarded healers by nailing the healer and the tank in the burst. It will hit the tank for 1.5X damage meaning they can easily take 3k+ per tick often allowing you to do a quick target switch to burst the tank down before the healer can react. When interrupting and DPSing a healer you can easily run out of ammo (the 1 ammo for interrupt every 6s counteracts the HE bonus ammo), looking forward to having our interrupt be no cost.

Another key to using the spec is popping HO/HtL BEFORE you get into combat with anything with a KB. You can often make an entire group waste their KBs on you while you are immune. It makes killing snipers and mercenaries extremely easy. It also causes a ton of confusion as they see you're not at full resolve and often they'll blow their stuns and other CC on you (generally wasting it because you take less damage) giving you full resolve by the time your HO/HtL runs out.

The spec is NOT better than pyro/assault right now but should be at least as good after 1.2 and possibly better simply due to better heat management. I have to say the the 8/31/2 spec is better than the 6/33/2 spec. The increased aim is very important for having that super hard hitting FB/IP. If you focus only on using FT/PC you are hurting yourself.

Also something I want other people to try: I think using mortar barrage/death from above with 5 stacks does more damage. Maybe I'm crazy and I haven't done an absolute test yet but I have had MB critting for 2.5-3k (on multiple targets) without adrenals or anything going. Normally it crits for 2k or so. Going to do a proper test today as it may just have been from the marauder party buff or something else I didn't notice at the time.

Trying to use flamethrower whenever you have 5 stacks is not the way to play. You have to make sure you can stun + use HO so that you can't be knocked around. With it getting a snare in 1.2 the stun won't be needed but you should still use it with HO up.

 

 

Flamethrower/pulse cannon is very good damage but situational. You will hurt yourself if using that is what you are focusing your playstyle around.

 

 

The initial burst of the spec is quite good when you blow adrenal and relic to Immolate, RP, FB until RP or immolate is back up. Retractable blades really is only useful if you're fighting a stealther and want a DoT up or you need the DoT to use a crit RS.

 

Flameburst/ion pulse hits incredibly hard in this spec. With adrenals going you can easily crit for 2.7-3k with 2.2-2.5k crits the norm without. Gut/RB is a waste of a GCD/ammo to use it instead when you want to go for a quick kill unless you have a crit RS/HiB proc from RP/SS. Once it has a snare it will be much more useful but with your increased movement speed the snare still won't be needed much of the time. It really needs an increase in damage.

 

 

Killing healers shouldn't be much of an issue since you have a 6s CD interrupt. Knowing what to interrupt is the key which will be easier once there is a customisable UI and you can have the cast bar with the name of the spell more central. 6s CD with a 4 sec lockout means that unless the caster is standing still and mashing a 1.5s cast (lol flamethrower/pulse cannon) you should be able to keep it permanently interrupted. The best use for FT/PC is to take out guarded healers by nailing the healer and the tank in the burst. It will hit the tank for 1.5X damage meaning they can easily take 3k+ per tick often allowing you to do a quick target switch to burst the tank down before the healer can react. When interrupting and DPSing a healer you can easily run out of ammo (the 1 ammo for interrupt every 6s counteracts the HE bonus ammo), looking forward to having our interrupt be no cost.

 

 

Another key to using the spec is popping HO/HtL BEFORE you get into combat with anything with a KB. You can often make an entire group waste their KBs on you while you are immune. It makes killing snipers and mercenaries extremely easy. It also causes a ton of confusion as they see you're not at full resolve and often they'll blow their stuns and other CC on you (generally wasting it because you take less damage) giving you full resolve by the time your HO/HtL runs out.

 

The spec is NOT better than pyro/assault right now but should be at least as good after 1.2 and possibly better simply due to better heat management. I have to say the the 8/31/2 spec is better than the 6/33/2 spec. The increased aim is very important for having that super hard hitting FB/IP. If you focus only on using FT/PC you are hurting yourself.

 

Also something I want other people to try: I think using mortar barrage/death from above with 5 stacks does more damage. Maybe I'm crazy and I haven't done an absolute test yet but I have had MB critting for 2.5-3k (on multiple targets) without adrenals or anything going. Normally it crits for 2k or so. Going to do a proper test today as it may just have been from the marauder party buff or something else I didn't notice at the time.

you make good points... i think too many people switch from pyro to AP and stil try to play like they are pyro. They playstyle is completely different.

Here is the Priority Rotation that I have worked out so far.

Flamethrower (5 stacks of Proto)

Rail shot (crit procced)

Immolate (Procs Flame Barrage)

Rocket Punch (Free Rocket Punch)

Retractable Blade

Flame Burst

Flamethrower (any stacks before 5)

 

 

Fixed the rotation for ya, reason Immolate has a 100% chance to pro a free Rocket punch.

Also tweeked your spec a bit.

You bring up a good point, my only counter point is we don't want to wait on RP for the free one as it's a major portion of damage. Since the cooldown is every 9 secs, It's better to wait on using immolate until RP comes off it's 2nd CD.

So the rotation would be somthing like Imm/RP/RB/RS (if procced/FB/FB/FB/RP (if off CD)/FB/FB/PFT (5 stacks) or something like that.

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301GMZMsr0RrfkdsZb.1 last point anywhere you like, my reasoning for taking "Power Armor" is it stacks with "Stabilized Armor" giving you 22% damage reduction while stunned.

 

Another version on the spec is a "never ending flame burst spam spec This spec in PvP will let you spam flame burst nonstop and never over heat due to many ways to reduce heat in combat with "Gyroscopic Alignment Jets" & "Prototype Cylinder Ventilation".

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301hZMsr0RrfkdsZbcb.1

Power Armor is really really poor. Even tanks don't take the points usually. It's a really bad percentage per point taken. It's better to have the utility of hitman or advanced Tools

I'm afraid it might still be a bit too slow, but I haven't played on the PTS, so you might be right. But back to the original point - free Rocket Punch is underwhelming, after all this tree doesn't have heat problems, so it's hardly mandatory. I'd prefer something that'd add some synergy to the tree, that'd make AP more deadly in melee.

It's 5 GCD's to proc, and in 1.2 your rotation will be more like

Imm, RP, RB, FB, FB, RS (when Procced), FB, FB, RP, PFT, than begin again.

It's a bit clunky, and makes me wonder why even worry about using Rail shot. I personally see no reason to take the bonus damage in RS since I can go 2-3 rotations without ever getting Charged Gauntlets to proc.

But the slow isn't inline with other snares in the game. You have to rememeber that AP is very much melee-oriented, much more than the Pyrotech (which funnily enough has access to a much more reliable snare) and it doesn't have a real gap closer like the shieldtech does (I don't count the HO as a gap closer, though it can be used in this way somewhat). And I think you'll agree with me that adding a snare to a 15 second DoT is a bit counterproductive - to keep the target snared you need to waste (unlike the Pyro, for an instance) 16 heat on a lackluster attack and refresh the DoT, not letting it to run its full course.

 

So in a way, the problem with the snare is exacerbated by RB's mediocrity. If RB was a much more potent attack then I would agree that 6 seconds of a 30% snare is sufficient.

The problem on live and will be in 1.2 (though less often) is the lack of a 4m-10m damage or closer. Using HO as a closer is a bad idea it's better used as someone pointed out as an offensive barrage when PFT is ready.

Granted, it's not terrible, but it has little synergy with the tree. Like I've said, a crit on a RS (which is on a 15 second cooldown for us) is a measly increase in the DPS. I'm aware it does add some burst, but it still feels rather clunky in this spec.

 

Yeah, RB is a bit of a waste currently; only nice to apply a DoT for the RS. You might say it's similar with Incendiary Missle - but it's ranged and you only need 1 point for it anyway.

In the 2 days I have played it, I have found RS to be almost a complete waste of time to use. It does less damage than FB/RP/Immolate and PFT. I see no point in spending points in talents that buff it a measly 6 percent. As a Pyro that uses RS on proc this seems odd since it hits like a truck, but Pyro has talents that boost it. As an AP, it's only used on Charged Gauntlets proc otherwise it's not worth the energy used so why do we have to waste 3 points in Puncture and then your point about Charged Gauntlets is valid.