[uPDATE]

Keep in mind the newest episode of the KOTFE series 'A Traitor Among the Chiss'

~Hello everybody,

I was pretty messed up about the last KOTFE episode "Crisis on Umbara". As a Light Side Jedi Counselor this kicked me where it hurts and left me dazed and confused because of it's random nature.I felt a little betrayed because of my romance with Theran Shan (Also having played the previous expansion packs with him in it), and wanted to know other's opinions whether they had a romance with him or not. I have yet to play the new episode 'A Traitor Among The Chiss'.. which I am playing in a few hours (lol). Whether you've had Theran for a long time or just for the KOTFE series.. I really would like to hear your opinions, theories for future episodes concerning him, and or just to talk about it.

~Thanks

well...I'm not a big fan of theron , but I do have one toon romancing him . My double agent sniper .

I don't think he is a real traitor , like say Koth was in trying to steal the graveyard ship or like Quinn or any of the others npc that do betray you (say like baras) . I think his whole 'act' is just that an act .

I'm guessing that he is infiltrating them to bring them down by making the alliance chase him to his new boss .

at least , so far that's how it seem . if it turn out he really is a traitor....BW better make it good . And like all traitor..he will die .

I'm not convinced he's being manipulated, but I'm certain he's playing the double agent role.

I'll need to hear his reasoning for what he's doing and why he hasn't told us, before I decide whether or not I'm going to shoot him.

Well there are numerous threads on Theron Shan but here is my take. At first I was in shock, angry, appalled, etc., etc. I have settled down since and am taking this for what it is. I have to play this out based on my characters thoughts.

• 
  My evil Sith Assassin (non-romanced, he is with Lana) will want to kill him.
  My trooper will want to imprison him. Also non-romanced and with Aric.
  My Jedi Knight will dump him as her lover.
  My female Sith Warrior (who romanced Theron) will want to kill him and bury his corpse next to Quinn.
  My Sith Sorcerer may or may not forgive him, but would like to punch him in the gut for what he has done.
  My Jedi Shadow will forgive him because he is her first love (she stayed true to the Jedi Code until Theron's suave personality did her in ).
  I haven't decided yet on what my bounty hunter or agent will do.
  

We as the player see things that our characters do not. When you play Copero you will see for example that

I have a couple of problems with that because it just makes more plot holes for me. I feel that Theron never needed to do any of that and why is he all of a sudden quietly giving information. He should have trusted my character enough to confide in us instead of going all rogue. He is a fool to not think that any of this hurt us and a bigger fool to take a risk that we wouldn't hesitate to destroy him for it. Also, now that we know (from the mail we get after Copero) part of what is happening, why are we just sitting around.

I also hope that we can act on some of the things Lana says like

I am just kind of tired of the Alliance Commander being left in the dark most of the time and just made to look like a fool to Theron and anyone else.

Well there are numerous threads on Theron Shan but here is my take. At first I was in shock, angry, appalled, etc., etc. I have settled down since and am taking this for what it is. I have to play this out based on my characters thoughts.

 

• 
  My evil Sith Assassin (non-romanced, he is with Lana) will want to kill him.
  My trooper will want to imprison him. Also non-romanced and with Aric.
  My Jedi Knight will dump him as her lover.
  My female Sith Warrior (who romanced Theron) will want to kill him and bury his corpse next to Quinn.
  My Sith Sorcerer may or may not forgive him, but would like to punch him in the gut for what he has done.
  My Jedi Shadow will forgive him because he is her first love (she stayed true to the Jedi Code until Theron's suave personality did her in ).
  I haven't decided yet on what my bounty hunter or agent will do.
  

 

We as the player see things that our characters do not. When you play Copero you will see for example that

Theron's response to Valss on his plans, he says "yeah" but in this unsure manner. Also at the end on his shuttle, he clearly is setting a device so that we can track or listen in on what is being said.

 

 

I have a couple of problems with that because it just makes more plot holes for me. I feel that Theron never needed to do any of that and why is he all of a sudden quietly giving information. He should have trusted my character enough to confide in us instead of going all rogue. He is a fool to not think that any of this hurt us and a bigger fool to take a risk that we wouldn't hesitate to destroy him for it. Also, now that we know (from the mail we get after Copero) part of what is happening, why are we just sitting around.

 

 

So my first thought would be to go to Zakuul since we do rule them anyway, or have a special ops team go and just destroy the silly little cult street gang, capture some of their people and interrogate them

 

 

I also hope that we can act on some of the things Lana says like

allowing her to interrogate Theron.

I would really like to see her get angry and scorch the rest of what little hair he as left off his head.

 

 

I am just kind of tired of the Alliance Commander being left in the dark most of the time and just made to look like a fool to Theron and anyone else.

Tsk...I can't stand this !

You have great Powers ! use them ! what is with the Punching! lol leave that to the grunt and lowlife ! Zap! Forcechoke and so on and so forth

I feel that Theron never needed to do any of that and why is he all of a sudden quietly giving information. He should have trusted my character enough to confide in us instead of going all rogue.

There must be a reason for it . At least I'm hoping there is one . cose if he is just pulling a Baras on me.....pffff..been there , done that , get lost !

for our characters to be hurt , what for ? I mean , maybe someone who romanced him . I did his romance on my double agent..and she wasnt even mad . cose hello...Spying and lying is part of the job . Most of the class had some dealing with backstabber and others it was the center of their stories .

While I am sure that Theron is not really betraying us and just on a single man operation to uncover a threat to the alliance and the commander I fear that we might not get a satisfaying answer from Theron when he returns to us.

I guess it will be the usual "You know I couldn't risk my operation so I could not tell you" dumb line.

I think Charles even told us to have faith and that this is about trust. I guess we have to trust Theron to do the right thing and he trusts the commander to understand what he is doing.

Basically - if they would have used the "normal" way it would just have been an other mission with a threat were we speak about it in the beginning, plan what to do and then move on to solve this problem.

I think they wanted to add some more drama and this is why they wrote that Theron starts this surprise operation.

While I am sure that Theron is not really betraying us and just on a single man operation to uncover a threat to the alliance and the commander I fear that we might not get a satisfaying answer from Theron when he returns to us.

 

I guess it will be the usual "You know I couldn't risk my operation so I could not tell you" dumb line.

 

I think Charles even told us to have faith and that this is about trust. I guess we have to trust Theron to do the right thing and he trusts the commander to understand what he is doing.

 

Basically - if they would have used the "normal" way it would just have been an other mission with a threat were we speak about it in the beginning, plan what to do and then move on to solve this problem.

 

I think they wanted to add some more drama and this is why they wrote that Theron starts this surprise operation.

I imagine that probably is what we can expect, but it will be very unsatisfying. Even though he's trying to protect the Commander and the Alliance (I have no doubt that he's a double-agent...I never did), he completely undermined the Commander's authority. Theron made him/her look like a total stooge in front of the entire galaxy...and a romanced Commander got an even shorter stick. Groveling and a bleeding heart, acting like a weakling for all to see...or total hell hath no fury like...in which case you get an unromanced letter from him with the latter choice (so we don't even know if the romance is broken if you take the bounty option).

They've really backed us into a wall with the concept of just forgiving him like "okey dokey Theron, you saved us so it's all okay now." No, no it's not. A Commander who just blindly forgives him would be admitting to everybody that he/she has no authority, and is really just a figurehead, and has no right to know what's going on with the people beneath him/her.

They had so much potential here. So much. All they had to do was throw in a little spice, like the three of them coming up with some grand spy game scheme. And for a romanced Theron, it would make it so much more angsty...with the Commander knowingly sending his/her lover off on a deep cover mission that he might never return from. *chills*

I've heard a lot of things about Theron being a double agent, which I hope is in fact true... but at the same time the betrayal didn't make a lot of sense (depending on which side you're on or not). I've stated before that I REALLY hope he is a double agent and is working towards bringing the alliance to take down some faction or whatever (in the middle of the current FP as of now).. but part of me feels that's not true, and I hope I'm not right. I did see on the trailers that he seems to be more dedicated to whatever side he's leaning on now.

he planted a device when he reported back to the leader of Zildrog , so your alliance could catch the discussion . If he wasn't a double agent , why would he do that ?

he planted a device when he reported back to the leader of Zildrog , so your alliance could catch the discussion . If he wasn't a double agent , why would he do that ?

Well like I said, I hadn't finished the new quest yet, so I wouldn't have known.. but when I first started playing the whole situation seems iffy to me. I'm not doubting that he isn't.. and since I did finish it, it did seem like he was a double agent. Having played many storylines whether it was KOTFE or just general classes, someone SWTOR makes story advanced that make no sense in the long run.

well the only thing that keep poppin in my head , is that during the expansion of revan . On Rishi , when he get captured and Lana let it happen . There is a dialogue option you can pick that make him admit that if him and Lana had planned him being captured....he wouldn't have been able to act the role .

So if they take that in consideration , it would mean at some point if he really is playing the infiltrator....he will be found out eventually .

So either it will become a rescue mission (where you can kill him) , or zildrog know and are using him and he think he is using them .

well the only thing that keep poppin in my head , is that during the expansion of revan . On Rishi , when he get captured and Lana let it happen . There is a dialogue option you can pick that make him admit that if him and Lana had planned him being captured....he wouldn't have been able to act the role .

 

So if they take that in consideration , it would mean at some point if he really is playing the infiltrator....he will be found out eventually .

 

So either it will become a rescue mission (where you can kill him) , or zildrog know and are using him and he think he is using them .

Theron has allowed himself to be captured (and beaten) numerous times in the past, in order to gain intel or get into a position he needs to be in for his mission. He's a deep cover infiltrator/agent, and that's what he's good at.

If you haven't read the additional background media that features him, I would take a look. It's really great stuff and gives a lot lot lot of further insight into his character and just what he's capable of (like taking down a Dark Council member in his underwear).

he planted a device when he reported back to the leader of Zildrog , so your alliance could catch the discussion . If he wasn't a double agent , why would he do that ?

What confused me is the tiny part of his convo we got to see, there's no way he could have known that guy would spill the name of the Order at the end of the conversation so that could not have been the reason he did it. So what else did we hear/get a transcript of?

Theron- "I held up my end of the bargain, now it's your turn. Will this work?"

Masked Guy- "You have no need to worry, The Eternal Alliance and it's commander will be destroyed."

We get nothing from that intercepted conversation except possible confirmation he wants the Alliance destroyed, and that he's working with a group with the same goals.. which the Chiss lady told us anyway.

What confused me is the tiny part of his convo we got to see, there's no way he could have known that guy would spill the name of the Order at the end of the conversation so that could not have been the reason he did it. So what else did we hear/get a transcript of?

Theron- "I held up my end of the bargain, now it's your turn. Will this work?"

Masked Guy- "You have no need to worry, The Eternal Alliance and it's commander will be destroyed."

 

We get nothing from that intercepted conversation except possible confirmation he wants the Alliance destroyed, and that he's working with a group with the same goals.. which the Chiss lady told us anyway.

That tripped me up too, even my own character said something didn't make sense. I'm leaning towards him now more than ever being a double agent... but I do know that we learned the name of the order that Theran was backing.

What confused me is the tiny part of his convo we got to see, there's no way he could have known that guy would spill the name of the Order at the end of the conversation so that could not have been the reason he did it. So what else did we hear/get a transcript of?

Theron- "I held up my end of the bargain, now it's your turn. Will this work?"

Masked Guy- "You have no need to worry, The Eternal Alliance and it's commander will be destroyed."

 

We get nothing from that intercepted conversation except possible confirmation he wants the Alliance destroyed, and that he's working with a group with the same goals.. which the Chiss lady told us anyway.

I kinda think that's splitting hairs a bit...because why would he have sent that to us anyways, even leaving off the part where Creepy Mask Guy #4 mentions the name of the organization? Theron wants us to have the info. We, as the player, know he is a double-agent, but so far the Alliance itself doesn't know for sure yet, because Hylo just thinks her people were able to miraculously get the info. If Theron didn't want them to have it, they wouldn't have gotten it.

Sure, there would have been no way for Theron to know that Creepy Mask Guy would spill the name of the Order, but we could also assume he's been recording everything they've said (like any spy would) and did a little "gotcha" happy dance in his head when the guy opened his trap.

I kinda think that's splitting hairs a bit...because why would he have sent that to us anyways, even leaving off the part where Creepy Mask Guy #4 mentions the name of the organization? Theron wants us to have the info. We, as the player, know he is a double-agent, but so far the Alliance itself doesn't know for sure yet, because Hylo just thinks her people were able to miraculously get the info. If Theron didn't want them to have it, they wouldn't have gotten it.

 

Sure, there would have been no way for Theron to know that Creepy Mask Guy would spill the name of the Order, but we could also assume he's been recording everything they've said (like any spy would) and did a little "gotcha" happy dance in his head when the guy opened his trap.

where was it confirmed beyond doubt that he's a double agent? I've seen nothing and believe he's really trying to take the Alliance down.

And that's my point, he may have gotten lucky with that conversation as he allowed it to be intercepted, but I see nothing from it except a confirmation he's taking down the Alliance and "this is the name of my friends". He had to have known the Alliance was keeping tabs on his shuttle, it doesn't seem like he swapped shuttles at any point, so he's been stopping us from getting anything until now and we get nothing but confirmation of the Order, and rpesumably his, plans. We get the name, but already knew he was working with a group thanks to the Chiss lady, obviously he may not have known that but we couldn't trace his call, or that would have been mentioned, so we get 3 lines, one being a lucky find and the other two confirming betrayal.

with one-size fits all storylines currently neither theory fits (undercover or full betrayal) but full betrayal fits better for all types of commanders, even if still confusing, then undercover helping a full tyrannical Commander does. Is the only reason I stick with the less confusing version of a story, until I can find less out there theories on the undercover thing. None have convinced me yet but I do read everyone's explanations.

where was it confirmed beyond doubt that he's a double agent? I've seen nothing and believe he's really trying to take the Alliance down.

 

And that's my point, he may have gotten lucky with that conversation as he allowed it to be intercepted, but I see nothing from it except a confirmation he's taking down the Alliance and "this is the name of my friends". He had to have known the Alliance was keeping tabs on his shuttle, it doesn't seem like he swapped shuttles at any point, so he's been stopping us from getting anything until now and we get nothing but confirmation of the Order, and rpesumably his, plans. We get the name, but already knew he was working with a group thanks to the Chiss lady, obviously he may not have known that but we couldn't trace his call, or that would have been mentioned, so we get 3 lines, one being a lucky find and the other two confirming betrayal.

 

with one-size fits all storylines currently neither theory fits (undercover or full betrayal) but full betrayal fits better for all types of commanders, even if still confusing, then undercover helping a full tyrannical Commander does. Is the only reason I stick with the less confusing version of a story, until I can find less out there theories on the undercover thing. None have convinced me yet but I do read everyone's explanations.

I'm about 99.999% sure that this is a deep cover agent at work. Why else would he have sent that? To shove it in our faces and kick us while we're down? That doesn't seem like him. If he was an actual traitor, he wouldn't have had to send a thing because we already knew that much. And he would have been doing himself and the organization he's working for a disservice by providing the Alliance with the name.

The easier to grasp theory is that he recorded the conversation for the sole purpose of tipping off the Alliance. BioWare kind of did a 1 + 1 = 2 thing with that scene...showing him activating the recording device and then in the next breath showing the captured transcript sent to the Alliance. I saw him activate the red light and had to wonder what he was up to...and then when I saw the transcript it hit me in an OH YEAH moment. Now we know.

I've always been almost positive of the double-agent thing from the start, just going off of Theron's past "I'm gonna go behind everybody's back and just do this" sort of behavior with Annihilation and Lost Suns.

Not to mention tweets from writing staff about how this is an exercise in "trust."

Theron has allowed himself to be captured (and beaten) numerous times in the past, in order to gain intel or get into a position he needs to be in for his mission. He's a deep cover infiltrator/agent, and that's what he's good at.

 

If you haven't read the additional background media that features him, I would take a look. It's really great stuff and gives a lot lot lot of further insight into his character and just what he's capable of (like taking down a Dark Council member in his underwear).

That is true, I did see in Theran though at the Valss battle cutscene that he looked genuinely concerned for Valss, knowing he wouldn't win. Unless he developed a relationship with a few characters while being a double agent, we won't know obviously until the next episode or next few episodes.

That is true, I did see in Theran though at the Valss battle cutscene that he looked genuinely concerned for Valss, knowing he wouldn't win. Unless he developed a relationship with a few characters while being a double agent, we won't know obviously until the next episode or next few episodes.

When I saw that and Valss saying that Theron would be victorious, it made me think that he was in on it too. If the Chiss had a vision but was really on the side of the Zildrog's, Theron would have no chance of betraying them. I get the feeling Valss knew all along he was going to die in that spot and that he helped Theron out with what is going on from the beginning. Of course this is just my own personal opinion and speculation but it opens up new branches. It is against Theron's character to do anything without just cause, even if he goes about it recklessly and in a way most people would think was selfish.

When I saw that and Valss saying that Theron would be victorious, it made me think that he was in on it too. If the Chiss had a vision but was really on the side of the Zildrog's, Theron would have no chance of betraying them. I get the feeling Valss knew all along he was going to die in that spot and that he helped Theron out with what is going on from the beginning. Of course this is just my own personal opinion and speculation but it opens up new branches. It is against Theron's character to do anything without just cause, even if he goes about it recklessly and in a way most people would think was selfish.

I think Valss is/was part of the Order. It's kind of the definition of crazy cults in this game to have "visions" of saving the galaxy that involve killing lots of people. Nowhere in that flashpoint did Valss state that he was looking to stop the war...only that Theron had to trust in his vision. The guy totally had that creepy "drink-the-kool-aid-for-I-am-one-with-the-nutter" vibe to me.

If Theron is a deep-cover agent (which I'm like 99.9999% sure of), it wouldn't make sense for him to team up with someone else going against the Order. The entire point of a deep cover op is to work *for* the opposite side (the bad guys in this case)...to the point where you can screw them over in the end.

I think Valss is/was part of the Order. It's kind of the definition of crazy cults in this game to have "visions" of saving the galaxy that involve killing lots of people. Nowhere in that flashpoint did Valss state that he was looking to stop the war...only that Theron had to trust in his vision. The guy totally had that creepy "drink-the-kool-aid-for-I-am-one-with-the-nutter" vibe to me.

 

If Theron is a deep-cover agent (which I'm like 99.9999% sure of), it wouldn't make sense for him to team up with someone else going against the Order. The entire point of a deep cover op is to work *for* the opposite side (the bad guys in this case)...to the point where you can screw them over in the end.

Dracofish,

I read your explanations and I wish I knew how to quote more than one thing you said but oh well... I really liked your summation on Theron. Even though it has been out there that he is most likely a double agent, this was confirmed (to me) that he was when he reached down in his shuttle and put that device there. He wanted us to get some information and I guess he felt this was the only way to do it without blowing his cover.

I am glad I am not the only one that got that whole creepy vibe from Valss. I found it strange that Theron seemed concerned for Valss when he jumped out of the shuttle after us. If Theron was on our side and not really betraying us why would he say that to Vayss in the first place? It just seemed like a stupid line to me. Now if he is a traitor, then yeah I would expect a line like that. They also seem to have this weird relationship going on here that gave off a creepy vibe to me.

Dracofish,

 

I read your explanations and I wish I knew how to quote more than one thing you said but oh well... I really liked your summation on Theron. Even though it has been out there that he is most likely a double agent, this was confirmed (to me) that he was when he reached down in his shuttle and put that device there. He wanted us to get some information and I guess he felt this was the only way to do it without blowing his cover.

 

I am glad I am not the only one that got that whole creepy vibe from Valss. I found it strange that Theron seemed concerned for Valss when he jumped out of the shuttle after us. If Theron was on our side and not really betraying us why would he say that to Vayss in the first place? It just seemed like a stupid line to me. Now if he is a traitor, then yeah I would expect a line like that. They also seem to have this weird relationship going on here that gave off a creepy vibe to me.

Haha, yeah I have no idea how to multi-quote.

I get the impression that Theron probably rocked Valss'sss world to get what he needed out of him...like many a good spy would. Valss seemed totally into Theron, but Theron was kinda "meh" to me, lol.

And I took his "concern" as a last-ditch effort to stop him from jumping out of the shuttle in an effort to protect the Commander, not so much Valss.