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Alternatives to the BW proposed Laze Target discussion c/o Angelsfluttershy

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Gunslinger / Sniper
Alternatives to the BW proposed Laze Target discussion c/o Angelsfluttershy

chuixupu's Avatar


chuixupu
09.07.2013 , 12:12 PM | #41
I really like the idea of abilities in general working a little differently depending on what your talent specialization is. (how they would work that, I'm not sure, I guess it could be put into your top talent description)
Wardens of Fate / Alea Iacta Est
The Tarkus Legacy ~ The Harbinger/Jedi Covenant

BetaKiller's Avatar


BetaKiller
09.08.2013 , 11:49 AM | #42
Spoiler


I think I wasn't clear enough sorry it is just my mental process thinking of all possibilities I can >.< I understood your math completely and as I said it is really well done but increasing 50% on damage may not correspond to a 50% increase on cooldown in a 1:1 relationship. Remember the 2.0 PTS where Amubush could be specced into 1.5s? You just gave it back to Snipers every 90s, and an auto-crit of it, but those points where changed into the Zeroing Shots. Part of it was the impact on the infamous TTK, Ambush - FT is a terrifying opener, one that even my idea without the auto-crit may reacquire even a higher cooldown. Besides you have to take into account rotation changes, how long would the dot be down in my question? 1s? so if a skill between that could give 3s of dot damage in 2s (taking in account the 1s dot down and 1s until the dot ticks again after reapplying, given that Snipe will reapply all 3 dots) may be worth changing the rotation in the long run. I'm just theorizing here given the information given.

Snipe however I still believe is a bad skill, it lacks anything that makes the players willing to keep using it, design-wise, and changing Laze Target but keeping Snipe will do nothing to help, apart from forcing a choice to players that they do not want. Yes increasing numbers is nice but it will not solve the current issue with Laze Target only hide it beneath a nice intent change. And locking the change into the spec tree with a skill that may or may not be useful to the spec (Lethality barely use it unless in combination with Laze Target so why keep both linked if you going to change according to the skill tree?). A skill that shows this really well is Covered Escape, for Engineering it is THE skill, MM is just a fluff but does give a decent utility to the spec (speed) and so is Lethality (slow). A proper way would have CE be more meaningful on all specs since you are going to place its change so high in the tree but given the utility the skill gives, and the extra utility added (not damage) both specs have gained a proper skill that takes into account their mechanics.

Back to your feedback, which by the way thank you ^^
Yea I did think that 50% on EP might be a little off. My thinking here was to go for utility and keeping the focus of Laze Target, while you go for the numbers and keeping the damage balanced but increasing the burst potential I intend to get the burst in other way that are not damage-oriented and those changes carry value just like adding 10%, 20%, etc damage into a skill, just like increasing the cooldown carry a negative damage value.
I think burst in a time-oriented way instead of damage-oriented or instant damage burst, so take Ambush, while it does the same damage the damage is dished out sooner maybe giving time to add another skill into the mix.

Take Soa third phase for instance with his 10 seconds of vulnerability (hopefully I'm right with the 10s been a while since I killed him :P) there are a few things we can do as MM:

Snipe - Snipe - FT - Ambush - FT - SoS -> 7GCD = 10.5s, SoS wont fully hit
SoS - FT - Ambush(2.5s) - FT - Snipe > 6GCD + 1s = 10s
Snipe - FT - SoS - FT - Ambush(2.0s) > 6GCD + 0.5s = 9.5s

With LT giving 2 Zeroing Shots:
Ambush(1.5s) - FT - SoS - FT - EP/Snipe > 6GCD = 9s
Snipe - Snipe - FT - Ambush(0.5s) - FT - SoS > 6GCD + 0.5s = 9.5s

Of course these are probably not accurate, nor the best rotations for him but they show that there can have a gain that needs to be quantified.

Same thing for EP, I agree that 50% may be too much but Clusters bombs should not be all accounted into burst only some of them, by having 4 on the target they'll fully do their damage after 2s, with 8, only after 4s and that's only if the target is being hit every 0.5s by blaster fire, which on a 1v1 situation will happen in worst case scenario every 1.5s so those 8 cluster bombs deal full damage after 12s. However those bombs do give an extra 40 energy (in 12s, worst case scenario) which can be used in advance for additional skills instead of Rifle Shot so there is also a potential gain in damage.

Takedown is the only damage-oriented change into LT, given that as much as utility and QoL is good, damage may eventually be needed in an instant and Takedown seemed to me the tool for that.

So my idea tries to do is adding utility to LT in a way that such utility keep the focus of Laze Target, but in a way that allows the Sniper the flexibility of choosing when and how to properly utilize his skills. This change given the amount of utility that it may give might need a cooldown between 2 and 3 minutes with my opinion being 3 minutes. One thing I believe could be a better change is instead of giving a second EP it will directly give those extra 4 cluster bombs (or maybe 2) for any spec (with Engineering being the only that gains 5 energy from them).

Damn this wall of text >.< hopefully I made myself understandable >.< I really liked your idea apart from the Snipe :P (Hate Snipe with all my strength lol)

AngelFluttershy's Avatar


AngelFluttershy
09.10.2013 , 11:36 AM | #43
Quote: Originally Posted by BetaKiller View Post
I think I wasn't clear enough sorry it is just my mental process thinking of all possibilities I can >.< I understood your math completely and as I said it is really well done but increasing 50% on damage may not correspond to a 50% increase on cooldown in a 1:1 relationship. Remember the 2.0 PTS where Amubush could be specced into 1.5s? You just gave it back to Snipers every 90s, and an auto-crit of it, but those points where changed into the Zeroing Shots. Part of it was the impact on the infamous TTK, Ambush - FT is a terrifying opener, one that even my idea without the auto-crit may reacquire even a higher cooldown. Besides you have to take into account rotation changes, how long would the dot be down in my question? 1s? so if a skill between that could give 3s of dot damage in 2s (taking in account the 1s dot down and 1s until the dot ticks again after reapplying, given that Snipe will reapply all 3 dots) may be worth changing the rotation in the long run. I'm just theorizing here given the information given.

Snipe however I still believe is a bad skill, it lacks anything that makes the players willing to keep using it, design-wise, and changing Laze Target but keeping Snipe will do nothing to help, apart from forcing a choice to players that they do not want. Yes increasing numbers is nice but it will not solve the current issue with Laze Target only hide it beneath a nice intent change. And locking the change into the spec tree with a skill that may or may not be useful to the spec (Lethality barely use it unless in combination with Laze Target so why keep both linked if you going to change according to the skill tree?). A skill that shows this really well is Covered Escape, for Engineering it is THE skill, MM is just a fluff but does give a decent utility to the spec (speed) and so is Lethality (slow). A proper way would have CE be more meaningful on all specs since you are going to place its change so high in the tree but given the utility the skill gives, and the extra utility added (not damage) both specs have gained a proper skill that takes into account their mechanics.

Back to your feedback, which by the way thank you ^^
Yea I did think that 50% on EP might be a little off. My thinking here was to go for utility and keeping the focus of Laze Target, while you go for the numbers and keeping the damage balanced but increasing the burst potential I intend to get the burst in other way that are not damage-oriented and those changes carry value just like adding 10%, 20%, etc damage into a skill, just like increasing the cooldown carry a negative damage value.
I think burst in a time-oriented way instead of damage-oriented or instant damage burst, so take Ambush, while it does the same damage the damage is dished out sooner maybe giving time to add another skill into the mix.

Take Soa third phase for instance with his 10 seconds of vulnerability (hopefully I'm right with the 10s been a while since I killed him :P) there are a few things we can do as MM:

Snipe - Snipe - FT - Ambush - FT - SoS -> 7GCD = 10.5s, SoS wont fully hit
SoS - FT - Ambush(2.5s) - FT - Snipe > 6GCD + 1s = 10s
Snipe - FT - SoS - FT - Ambush(2.0s) > 6GCD + 0.5s = 9.5s

With LT giving 2 Zeroing Shots:
Ambush(1.5s) - FT - SoS - FT - EP/Snipe > 6GCD = 9s
Snipe - Snipe - FT - Ambush(0.5s) - FT - SoS > 6GCD + 0.5s = 9.5s

Of course these are probably not accurate, nor the best rotations for him but they show that there can have a gain that needs to be quantified.

Same thing for EP, I agree that 50% may be too much but Clusters bombs should not be all accounted into burst only some of them, by having 4 on the target they'll fully do their damage after 2s, with 8, only after 4s and that's only if the target is being hit every 0.5s by blaster fire, which on a 1v1 situation will happen in worst case scenario every 1.5s so those 8 cluster bombs deal full damage after 12s. However those bombs do give an extra 40 energy (in 12s, worst case scenario) which can be used in advance for additional skills instead of Rifle Shot so there is also a potential gain in damage.

Takedown is the only damage-oriented change into LT, given that as much as utility and QoL is good, damage may eventually be needed in an instant and Takedown seemed to me the tool for that.

So my idea tries to do is adding utility to LT in a way that such utility keep the focus of Laze Target, but in a way that allows the Sniper the flexibility of choosing when and how to properly utilize his skills. This change given the amount of utility that it may give might need a cooldown between 2 and 3 minutes with my opinion being 3 minutes. One thing I believe could be a better change is instead of giving a second EP it will directly give those extra 4 cluster bombs (or maybe 2) for any spec (with Engineering being the only that gains 5 energy from them).

Damn this wall of text >.< hopefully I made myself understandable >.< I really liked your idea apart from the Snipe :P (Hate Snipe with all my strength lol)
You're right on the 50% damage to 50% time correlation, but it was the only thing I had to go off of other than just guessing a cooldown duration completely. I'd gladly lower the damage of my suggestions to keep the cooldown between 60 and 90 seconds.

Your opinion on Snipe is what has me the most confused. I get that you don't like it, but that's like driving a car and saying you don't like the vehicle because of the reverse gear. Snipe isn't meant to be amazing because it's meant to be used as a utility skill/filler. We can see this by how it's implemented in each tree; MM uses it to gain a Recoil Control proc and Zeroing Shots, Engie uses it to keep Electrified Railgun on three stacks (Overload Shot does less damage), and Lethality/Hybrid only use it when Laze Target is off CD (the most underwhelming use of Snipe among the specs). Having Laze Target give Snipe more damage based on a spec's mechanics is giving it more utility because of the on-demand burst. Don't get me wrong, I can see a lot more options for utility, but a lot of them would fall short in PvE and fail to meet Laze Target's design purpose.

I guess what I was trying to say with my feedback for your suggestion is that I recognize its potential, but I don't like that the damage is inconsistent among the specs. If the LT resulted in a critted Ambush into crit FT, that would be a ton of damage in a short timeframe compared to the Lethality LT. The LT change for EP isn't too much for PvP as it can easily be avoided/the damage be spread out, but for PvE it will be a huge addition. Generally, Ops groups run with 2 MDPS and 2 RDPS; say a Marauder, Juggernaut, Sniper, and Mercenary. Even if the tanks are an Assassin and Juggernaut, those Cluster Bombs may be firing off quickly with the Mercenary helping out. My Ops groups regularly has three Gunslingers (it wasn't intended, I swear), so my Sab Charges and their Contingency Charges would be going off like mad resulting in large amounts of burst. I know my arguments are all situational, but these circumstances aren't unlikely.

Just to clarify my point, I like the idea of added utility resulting in more burst, but I don't like any amount of RNG factoring into the result. Two of your three additions to LT leave room for RNG to wreak havoc on balance, something that the current Laze Target does not allow with the 100% crit chance. I'd feel bad for whoever got stuck on the end of my opening 1.5sec Ambush into FT which both just happened to crit. Your change is really powerful, but the inconsistency makes me cringe at the thought of it having a three minute cooldown.

paowee's Avatar


paowee
09.10.2013 , 03:06 PM | #44
Hey angels i got your message. So which one should i forward?
Republic < Intrepid > The Harbinger slinger sage vanguard dps
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AngelFluttershy's Avatar


AngelFluttershy
09.10.2013 , 03:49 PM | #45
Quote: Originally Posted by paowee View Post
Hey angels i got your message. So which one should i forward?
If you are asking which suggestion, I was under the impression you were just sending in links to this thread and the voting thread you've been keeping track of. Hence why I had implemented a formatting process to create concise suggestions that can be skimmed. The voting thread shows a small percentage of the community's feelings on Laze Target, and the this thread shows an even smaller portion of the community who has detailed ideas for the ability. In other words, this is just extended reading on the matter.

The purpose of this thread was to show that some players care about the direction of a class by displaying their own ideas. Us creating one suggestion and submitting it, no matter how good, Bioware would just ignore it due to legal reasons and design reasons (we produce different metrics than the combat team). Having a small collection of ideas with different design philosophies and styles in a presentable manner could just give the dev team food for thought.

Just use the following link in the submission: http://www.swtor.com/community/showp...09&postcount=3

paowee's Avatar


paowee
09.10.2013 , 04:32 PM | #46
Done! Now we wait..
Republic < Intrepid > The Harbinger slinger sage vanguard dps
swtorboard.org dps blog.class guides.end-game stuff
16 man | 8 man DPS leaderboards | Galactic Starfighter Records