Another Dread Guard thread eh? sigh...ok I'll jump on haha. This is the 2nd boss, the mechanics are extremely demanding. The only thing that would come close to upsetting me about this nerf is that there are guilds out there that wanted to keep trying with the way it was. Other than that, I have no problem with it and the reason is I don't feel it's going to help our guild all that much. We were gonna start downing it in 2-3 attempts regardless from week to week so adding 30s, maybe that means more 1 shots instead of 2-3, whoopidiedoo.

What it does allow is for some of those guilds that are solid, ones that don't stand in ****, don't taunt the wrong bosses, don't let their tanks die, don't get killed by mark of death, don't get knocked back into red circles.....basically the guilds that don't tunnel, but yet were just falling a lil short cuz they don't have the world's best dps, will now be able to beat it and IMO are just as deserving as the guilds that can power-dps their way through content (like us haha).

The best guilds had 2 weeks to prove their worth, I think 1 or 2 more weeks woulda been nice, but I'm happy with the end result....in hindsight, after seeing how easy it was for us to clear it a 2nd time....I probably woulda lobbied for a 15s increase rather than 30s, but I'm sure BW is done touching it now.

Again, this is the 2nd boss guys...Let's see how the TFB 'fix' is looking, maybe that one will be the new gut check.

30 Seconds was to account for diversity of DPS. Bioware can't fix class balance so they went the direction we recommended.

 

/thread

 

Regards,

KK

So... 8man was nerfed and 16man pretty much stays the same. Nice.

The only issue people had was DPS requirements. Now that the requirements are a crap shoot, 16man has been majorly focused on mechanics. Guilds weren't struggling because of DPS but more so the heavy emphasis on mechanics in 16.

16 was definitely not a nerf unless there were guilds dying to enrage. Yeah, a few great attempts early on were to enrage because most groups weren't minmaxing their movements and group precision, but after doing so the 30sec timer added on to 16 doesn't matter.

Regardless, it is still Bioware catering to the complainers. The fight was not impossible and its supposed to be a part of the hardest operation in current content. I understand nerfing something that is completely gamebreaking (H Vizier in HoF?), but nerfing something that many guilds were downing!? Its principle at this point. Is this what we have to expect? They should just tell us tough luck since it is entirely possible and not as crazy as some people were making it out to be. We have what, a dozen total guilds who have cleared it now? Out of like 24 registered guilds? So out of the progression guilds, nearly half (if not half already) have downed it. Sounds like it should be nerfed to me. Just because a guild calls themselves a progression guild doesn't mean they are capable of downing content.

Just because a guild calls themselves a progression guild doesn't mean they are capable of downing content.

That has to be the truest statement I've read on this forums in the 3 years I've been registered here

Raiding in this game at its highest difficulty has always been at a casual level to complete it in under a month.

I don't see how anything in the future will be different.

If this content level was meant only for those who like crazy difficulty levels than there wouldnt have been a gear incease with it. Just a title/mount reward for completing it under x minutes. Once gear gets involved it needs to be accessible for the less hardcore/better progression groups out there so they are not way behind the gear curve.

Also from a business standpoint I am not sure why you would comit the bulk of your content development to an extremely small percentage of players. I am not even sure 5% of those that are raiding (a much smaller group than those that dont) would have been able to down it at that difficulty level.

If this content level was meant only for those who like crazy difficulty levels than there wouldnt have been a gear incease with it. Just a title/mount reward for completing it under x minutes. Once gear gets involved it needs to be accessible for the less hardcore/better progression groups out there so they are not way behind the gear curve.

 

Also from a business standpoint I am not sure why you would comit the bulk of your content development to an extremely small percentage of players. I am not even sure 5% of those that are raiding (a much smaller group than those that dont) would have been able to down it at that difficulty level.

NiM TFB/SnV gear dropping from easier content when a new tier of gear comes out, the same way HM EC is dropping Black Hole gear right now.

To the guilds who were stuck at NiM DG Council pre-nerf, what do you think of the fight now? Does the place still feel like NiM mode that you can stomach to raid for another couple of months?

Today: June 26, 2013

Game Update: 1.4 Terror From Beyond Release Date: September 26, 2012

If this content level was meant only for those who like crazy difficulty levels than there wouldnt have been a gear incease with it. Just a title/mount reward for completing it under x minutes. Once gear gets involved it needs to be accessible for the less hardcore/better progression groups out there so they are not way behind the gear curve.

 

Also from a business standpoint I am not sure why you would comit the bulk of your content development to an extremely small percentage of players. I am not even sure 5% of those that are raiding (a much smaller group than those that dont) would have been able to down it at that difficulty level.

I linked this in another thread... but WoW content actually provides some bosses that barely anyone ever sees. Less than 1.5% of all raiding guilds have cleared the hardest content in WoW. You can check out WoW Progress and see the percentages for every raid encounter.

Just because there is better gear doesn't mean that YOU should have it. If you don't want to put forth the effort to obtain it, then you shouldn't have access to it. Its fair. When the thread title says "Catering to the casual", handing you gear you don't deserve pretty much defines that.

Ontop of that, they allow you to access the old BiS gear by doing the easiest mode of new content. It still keeps you up to the competitive level, but requires the extra effort to get the new stuff. You can do the new content with the gear the easier content gives you- if you're not willing to then its not right to devalue our gear just because of it. Most MMOs are about being better than the next guy. All of us want to stand out.

Honestly, I think the issue with the DG was that they were the second boss. I like the idea of the last boss being as hard as pre-30 second added to enrage timer DG, then the penultimate boss being as hard as the current DG.

Of course, not everyone feels that the last boss should be the most challenging, but I think the nerf wouldn't have happened if they'd make the TFB and Kephess the "Destroyer of Operations."

NiM WH was tuned well, NiM +30 sec DG is tuned well for the second boss.

The idea that NiM Op 9, Undying Kephess and TFB are too easy seems more reasonable than DG needing to be un-nerfed.

This thread makes me lol

umm, to the op. The current fight is more like what we wanted, the pre-nerf version was a pure guild destroyer.

The fight, as its currently tuned, is still miles past what the "casual" guild may expect to clear. Yes it no longer requires your dps to all be putting up some of the best numbers in the world, but it still requires amazing dps from all 4 dps.

From what I've seen with a few glances between phases, I'm putting up close to 4500 effective heals per second towards the end of phase 1 and still need to sustain over 3300 for the rest of the fight (it's easily repeated once you know how and when the damage goes out)

The tanks basically have to be flawless or the healers are gonna be going even more crazy.

That being said, the fight is as perfect as it will ever be IMO. If they bump up the damage anymore heals are gonna be tight, right now they're just constant(how they should be). If they take away dps down time the enrage will seem non existent. I cant say what they should or should not do for tanks, I don't even know what they are doing half the time, I just know that they are taking a lot of damage in phases 1 and 2.

My guild only has 8% more of Kelsaras hp to get down, damn I cant wait to join the few.

BTW! This is all from a guy in a guild who hasn't skipped for the loot.

This thread makes me lol

 

umm, to the op. The current fight is more like what we wanted, the pre-nerf version was a pure guild destroyer.

 

The fight, as its currently tuned, is still miles past what the "casual" guild may expect to clear. Yes it no longer requires your dps to all be putting up some of the best numbers in the world, but it still requires amazing dps from all 4 dps.

 

From what I've seen with a few glances between phases, I'm putting up close to 4500 effective heals per second towards the end of phase 1 and still need to sustain over 3300 for the rest of the fight (it's easily repeated once you know how and when the damage goes out)

The tanks basically have to be flawless or the healers are gonna be going even more crazy.

That being said, the fight is as perfect as it will ever be IMO. If they bump up the damage anymore heals are gonna be tight, right now they're just constant(how they should be). If they take away dps down time the enrage will seem non existent. I cant say what they should or should not do for tanks, I don't even know what they are doing half the time, I just know that they are taking a lot of damage in phases 1 and 2.

 

My guild only has 8% more of Kelsaras hp to get down, damn I cant wait to join the few.

 

BTW! This is all from a guy in a guild who hasn't skipped for the loot.

You kind of aren't joining "the few" though. When listing accomplishments, most guilds will mention that they beat Boss X "pre-nerf".

You kind of aren't joining "the few" though. When listing accomplishments, most guilds will mention that they beat Boss X "pre-nerf".

I don't know who "boss x" is haha

How many merc healers have done this fight?

Opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one.

30 Seconds was to account for diversity of DPS. Bioware can't fix class balance so they went the direction we recommended.

 

/thread

 

Regards,

KK

Good to see a valid post amogst the 'omg nerf, nerf, uai BioWar??'. It is pretty obvious that anyone taking two Shadow DPS cannot beat this boss at all. Maybe with these 30s, the top 0.5% shadows can help get the kill. Quite nice to see snipers doing 1000 more DPS than shadows. I do believe this number is spot on according to the metrics system and within the margin each class should be.

I don't know who "boss x" is haha

 

How many merc healers have done this fight?

 

Opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one.

Boss X I believe was referring to DG pre-nerf, but to answer your question World first clear was with a merc healer. Saw the video he's awesome. The DG fight is setup beautifully for a merc healer cuz it's one of the few fights where the AoE heal is superior to ops and sorcs do to the constant movement. Makes me want to convert to heals!

Boss X I believe was referring to DG pre-nerf, but to answer your question World first clear was with a merc healer. Saw the video he's awesome. The DG fight is setup beautifully for a merc healer cuz it's one of the few fights where the AoE heal is superior to ops and sorcs do to the constant movement. Makes me want to convert to heals!

Yeah, he is the only merc healer I knew who did it on 8 man. Was curious as to if there was any other merc healers who have done it. World second or third or fourth would be a nice thing to know.

Most guilds dont reach that far, half way of phase 2 with luck

I expect the "professional guilds" want it that way.

I expect the "professional guilds" want it that way.

Something wrong with wanting hard content, but not insane enrage?

Something wrong with wanting hard content, but not insane enrage?

Yeah that's what Hard Mode is for

Nice to see Bioware caving to the casuals

How do you define "casuals"? Is there a cutoff for hours played per week? Hours per character? Achievements unlocked? Money in the bank? Gear level, and percent gear won vs. percent gear bought with comms or crafted? Or is a "casual" really just anyone who isn't you?

People who should be able to beat the fight: Me.

Casuals, who obviously shouldn't: Everyone else, suckers.

All the people saying "Only the best players should be able to beat Nightmare Mode" have this same problem in reasoning. How do you quantify "best"? Top 5%? Top 1%? 0.1%? etc.

It's like a high schooler graduating at the top 5% of his class whining about a kid from the top 10% of the class who got into the same college. "Elite University is catering to the stoopids!" Now he can't even boast about the college he got into, because Mr. 10% got in, too. Well guess what: Just because he's paying the university for his education doesn't make him the dean of admission. Sure, he can voice his opinion, but the university is going to try to do what's best for the university as a whole and not cater to that one individual.

BioWare is trying to improve the experience for their players as a whole. They can make missteps, of course, but I don't doubt that this is their goal (it goes along with making sure the game continues to run and make money). A change that affects you negatively may affect a greater number of people more positively. They won't nerf it to the ground, because then too many people would be unhappy. They have to figure out what percent of raiding guilds they want to admit to elite university and tune the fights from there.

TL;DR: Go ahead and debate whether you think the fight is too hard, too easy, or just right. But don't pretend that you define the gold standard for who should win. You're not the gatekeeper.

Stick a lever near the Dread Guard encounter. Pull the lever, enrage timer drops by 30 seconds. You get a title just for beating them. Remove lever if/when level cap increases.

While you're at it, due to the same thing for Lost Island so people can play it in its pre-original nerf state.

i believe DGs was hard, and it was HardCore raiding, but not that much, the hardest fight in the encounter should be the last one, in a long Ops like SaV, if you give me last 2 just as hard as NiM Dg even harder, and the rest "hard" like DG after nerf, then thats what everyone wants... 5 bosses to kill, that will take few days, maybe 1 week, then 2 fights that should take 1-2-3 weeks each, because you need both "great performance" plus the 5-10 pieces of loot from the other 5 bosses are useful after wiping for 1-2-3 weeks, on each boss...

now making the 2nd fight the hardest is stupid, just made whiners avoid, others gave excuses, for a content that 3 guilds killed before 1st week -.-.... you need at least to give people 4-5 bosses to "work hard" in maybe 7-10 days to complete, then the last 2 being *********** insane that only the best can clear withing 4-5 weeks... the good guilds will take 6 weeks to clear (more gear)... the awesome guilds will take 3-4 weeks for loot as well... the best guild will take 2 weeks because they are so good they will overcome the lack of gear.

that was WoW theory back in the day, and its the only thing i agree with WoW, that would help all this QQ and whine about hard content in swtor for once, also remove stupid lockout from HM / NiM it cant be more pointless, not only is gear lost, but its open to exploits / skipping as well as its 1 less difficulty / raid to do for each person/char = less time to play the game,

if i had nim for progress, hm for gearing alts, and sm to help other people, i would be playing all day on all my alts, but i dont know why bioware doesnt get this and give us dailys and CM useless thing that most raiders dont care about, dailys doesnt make the game funnier, it just force raiders to do them to have money for consumable / gear / repairs.

i believe DGs was hard, and it was HardCore raiding, but not that much, the hardest fight in the encounter should be the last one, in a long Ops like SaV, if you give me last 2 just as hard as NiM Dg even harder, and the rest "hard" like DG after nerf, then thats what everyone wants... 5 bosses to kill, that will take few days, maybe 1 week, then 2 fights that should take 1-2-3 weeks each, because you need both "great performance" plus the 5-10 pieces of loot from the other 5 bosses are useful after wiping for 1-2-3 weeks, on each boss...

 

now making the 2nd fight the hardest is stupid, just made whiners avoid, others gave excuses, for a content that 3 guilds killed before 1st week -.-.... you need at least to give people 4-5 bosses to "work hard" in maybe 7-10 days to complete, then the last 2 being *********** insane that only the best can clear withing 4-5 weeks... the good guilds will take 6 weeks to clear (more gear)... the awesome guilds will take 3-4 weeks for loot as well... the best guild will take 2 weeks because they are so good they will overcome the lack of gear.

 

that was WoW theory back in the day, and its the only thing i agree with WoW, that would help all this QQ and whine about hard content in swtor for once, also remove stupid lockout from HM / NiM it cant be more pointless, not only is gear lost, but its open to exploits / skipping as well as its 1 less difficulty / raid to do for each person/char = less time to play the game,

 

if i had nim for progress, hm for gearing alts, and sm to help other people, i would be playing all day on all my alts, but i dont know why bioware doesnt get this and give us dailys and CM useless thing that most raiders dont care about, dailys doesnt make the game funnier, it just force raiders to do them to have money for consumable / gear / repairs.

hasrdest boss should be the last or last 2 so that guilds can spend a few weeks farming the earlier bosses for gear that theyll need to overcome the last encounter

i agree somewhat.

 

hasrdest boss should be the last or last 2 so that guilds can spend a few weeks farming the earlier bosses for gear that theyll need to overcome the last encounter

I do agree, we spent ~40% of our time in NiM TFB on Dread Guards alone. We should have had to spend that time on Terror (But sadly, Terror as it stands is a poor fight. Exceptionally repetitive and boring).

To those doing the QQ this got nerfed... "Get over it". No really, this is silly. A good solid NiM that is a challenge is really cool, but the facts are pretty obvious that 4, 5 maybe 6 guilds actually CLEARED the DG NiM Pre-Nerf? This is an entertainment business that BW/EA has to maintain for THOUSANDS of customers and not just the 30-60 people that are skilled enough and determined enough to become "FIRST" at that hardest stuff on the server. I love the NiM content and thinks it's pretty close to workable for many more guilds soon to finish Min/Max of 72 gear. (Different thread for <insert gear stat = crap>)

i believe DGs was hard, and it was HardCore raiding, but not that much, the hardest fight in the encounter should be the last one, in a long Ops like SaV, if you give me last 2 just as hard as NiM Dg even harder, and the rest "hard" like DG after nerf, then thats what everyone wants... 5 bosses to kill, that will take few days, maybe 1 week, then 2 fights that should take 1-2-3 weeks each, because you need both "great performance" plus the 5-10 pieces of loot from the other 5 bosses are useful after wiping for 1-2-3 weeks, on each boss...

Totally agree with Carlenux on this one! Some feedback on S&V NiM was heard about Thrasher being a bit overtuned.

Honestly, I think the issue with the DG was that they were the second boss. I like the idea of the last boss being as hard as pre-30 second added to enrage timer DG, then the penultimate boss being as hard as the current DG..

hardest boss should be the last or last 2 so that guilds can spend a few weeks farming the earlier bosses for gear that theyll need to overcome the last encounter

I do agree, we spent ~40% of our time in NiM TFB on Dread Guards alone. We should have had to spend that time on Terror (But sadly, Terror as it stands is a poor fight. Exceptionally repetitive and boring).

Sounds like a LOT of people agree that FUTURE NiM content should move the "Ball crushing, butt kicking" bosses to the back of the line and add some MEAT to the loot drops on them while at it. Risk needs to provide reward! DG NiM should have dropped the "BEST" 75 Gear in all of the OP as it is the most difficult out of all the bosses. (So I've heard/read)

Maybe you should x2 the Gear dropped in DG NiM and then tone down that gear as they are nerfed over time? (Just a thought to reward some of the best hardcore guilds clearing and give a carrot to others to not wait for NERFS?)

Oh yea.. PLEASE SEPARATE NiM & HM lockouts! S&V NiM should have a separate lockout for NiM / HM (Retro do the same for TFB NiM / HM as well).