enoax Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 (edited) EDIT: Please note the assumption i made in this OP are wrong. Please see page 3 of thread. The different proc relics use different crit stats to determine a crit. In summary: Internal=tech Kinetic=tech Elemental=force Energy=force Oringal post: Noticed last night my pathetic crit rate for this proc relic. Looked into it a bit and I feel Sages/Sorcs are getting screwed with the crit mechanic on these relics. I believe the underlying reason is we are really a melee class (have a saber and free melee attack) yet our melee crit rate isn't affected by willpower. It looks to me as these proc relics use range/melee crit rates Using dummy and Dread guard relic of dark radiance Slinger with internal proc relic (DG) -> his ranged crit rate is 41% (tech is 40%). Relic critted 43%. http://www.torparse.com/a/57367 Sage with internal proc relic (DG) ->melee crit rate 21.28% (force crit rate 37%). Relic critted 15% http://www.torparse.com/a/57392 I can find sentinel parses from our guild using the campaign version (burning force) which crit for >40%. http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/eef14011-5c5c-4c8c-a7c0-7bc5555b45a3/player/8#d=0,b=1 You could speculate that my low crit rate on my sage is just RNG. But from last night's run i was 19.5% relic crit rate with 3 hours of log data. http://www.torparse.com/a/56888 http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/6e252dc9-6bda-4919-92e6-fa34905f0054/overview#d=0,b=1 Looks like sages (and i'm assuming Sorc's) get screwed. Willpower doesn't affect our melee crit rate so it's always goign to be lower than other classes. This is broken and needs fixed Edited November 28, 2012 by enoax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verfallen Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 (edited) Let me put it that way. If i get a sorc on my team that continuously rush in melee range to use thrash, he could have a 50% crit rate on it, I'm still issuing a vote kick. Seriously, we ain't melee, thrash is a lol finishing move on thrash, you use it for laugh of a sorc killing something with it. You lightsaber is a fancy stack stick, unless they somehow patch something, you currently have no reason to use melee. TL;DR : working as intended Edited November 26, 2012 by verfallen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry_Dallas Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 Let me put it that way. If i get a sorc on my team that continuously rush in melee range to use thrash, he could have a 50% crit rate on it, I'm still issuing a vote kick. Seriously, we ain't melee, thrash is a lol finishing move on thrash, you use it for laugh of a sorc killing something with it. You lightsaber is a fancy stack stick, unless they somehow patch something, you currently have no reason to use melee. TL;DR : working as intended Way to fail at understanding. TC is not saying that he/she rushes in and uses thrash. He/she's saying that the proc relic uses weapon attack crit instead of force attack crit. If he/she's correct, that's a dps loss compared to weapon classes. I'd double check myself, but I'm sticking with the War Hero relics until I get a schem from disassembling the DG ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoax Posted November 26, 2012 Author Share Posted November 26, 2012 Let me put it that way. If i get a sorc on my team that continuously rush in melee range to use thrash, he could have a 50% crit rate on it, I'm still issuing a vote kick. Seriously, we ain't melee, thrash is a lol finishing move on thrash, you use it for laugh of a sorc killing something with it. You lightsaber is a fancy stack stick, unless they somehow patch something, you currently have no reason to use melee. TL;DR : working as intended No, a sage/sorc wouldn't have a 50% crit rate on it with the current mechanics if we were to use thrash/DS to proc it. I never suggested using thrash/doublestrike or becoming a mellee class. The proc procs off ranged force attacks (our entire useful armament). We are a ranged class yet our proc relic crits as if we were a melee class, and our melee crit is not affected by our primary stat. You dont understand the issue i'm trying to have addressed here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verfallen Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 Way to fail at understanding. TC is not saying that he/she rushes in and uses thrash. He/she's saying that the proc relic uses weapon attack crit instead of force attack crit. If he/she's correct, that's a dps loss compared to weapon classes. I'd double check myself, but I'm sticking with the War Hero relics until I get a schem from disassembling the DG ones. Crit rating applies to both regardless of what you use, and this is what those relics add. Over a 30 second parse with it procced there is a lot of factors here, including talents and specs. Its not an average, it takes attack type and applies the crit chance on this type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadandburied Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 Verfallen you are so wrong sir. Maybe do some testing and research before posting your missinformation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schnopsnosn Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 Crit rating applies to both regardless of what you use, and this is what those relics add. Over a 30 second parse with it procced there is a lot of factors here, including talents and specs. Its not an average, it takes attack type and applies the crit chance on this type. The relics take the melee-crit-chance of a character. Sorcs naturally will have a very low melee-crit-% and therefore are screwed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry_Dallas Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 Crit rating applies to both regardless of what you use, and this is what those relics add. Over a 30 second parse with it procced there is a lot of factors here, including talents and specs. Its not an average, it takes attack type and applies the crit chance on this type. Proc relics do not add to crit rating, nor is crit rating the same across attack types. You don't have any idea what you're talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verfallen Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Ow its those relic that add damage on hits. Tought you meant relics with a crit rating boost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dacce Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Ow its those relic that add damage on hits. Tought you meant relics with a crit rating boost. Reading Comprehension = Fail. But on topic this is a serious issue. The proc on the relic should be taking into consideration the crit rating of the type of damage being done, not melee crit rating alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoax Posted November 27, 2012 Author Share Posted November 27, 2012 (edited) Ran another NiM EC tonight. 20% crit rate on the proc. Interestingly though, i noticed our sentinel with a 30% melee crit rate only got a crit rate of 20% as well with the corrosive injection proc relic. I ran a few more parses on my gunslinger vs. the ops dummy. Still getting near 40% crit rates with the proc relic to my 20% crit rate with the sage. I actually got a 30% crit rate with the campaign version though I only ran one parse. Maybe it's just the gunslinger that's broke lol. Anyone else have any numbers for different classes using this relic to confirm/ refute my theory? Edited November 27, 2012 by enoax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verfallen Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Ran another NiM EC tonight. 20% crit rate on the proc. Interestingly though, i noticed our sentinel with a 30% melee crit rate only got a crit rate of 20% as well with the corrosive injection proc relic. I ran a few more parses on my gunslinger vs. the ops dummy. Still getting near 40% crit rates with the proc relic to my 20% crit rate with the sage. I actually got a 30% crit rate with the campaign version though I only ran one parse. Maybe it's just the gunslinger that's broke lol. Anyone else have any numbers for different classes using this relic to confirm/ refute my theory? Actually, re-reading I do think I got an explanation, and it would indeed means those relics are broken for force-users. Its using tech critical rating, regardless of class. That would be 5%+ critical rating, disregarding your main stat, for around 20%. Confirm with jug and assassins, and see it tech based class keep an high crit rating on those procs. Might want to deactivate charges/technique on sins for those, for better result, they share rate limits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdmiralParmesan Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 No the real problem is that sorcs don't get ANY benefit to their melee attacks or stats from willpower. Sorcs do however get bonuses from strength. This relic would work fine as is if sorc's actually got the melee stat bonus from willpower like they should Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verfallen Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 No the real problem is that sorcs don't get ANY benefit to their melee attacks or stats from willpower. Sorcs do however get bonuses from strength. This relic would work fine as is if sorc's actually got the melee stat bonus from willpower like they should Then how do you explain the sentinel's result? They got both force and melee affected by their strenght. That means the relic does an attack that is considered damage on its own, and not an extension of the attack that made it happen. From the info, its something gunslinger has, and neither sent or sorc got, and all "unrelated moves" in the game (valor-unlockable melee "attacks" have been put down as tech. Makes sense that they might have coded the damage as "tech" coming from an item. I bet it procs yellow numbers, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry_Dallas Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Ran another NiM EC tonight. 20% crit rate on the proc. Interestingly though, i noticed our sentinel with a 30% melee crit rate only got a crit rate of 20% as well with the corrosive injection proc relic. I ran a few more parses on my gunslinger vs. the ops dummy. Still getting near 40% crit rates with the proc relic to my 20% crit rate with the sage. I actually got a 30% crit rate with the campaign version though I only ran one parse. Maybe it's just the gunslinger that's broke lol. Anyone else have any numbers for different classes using this relic to confirm/ refute my theory? Hmm...what spec is the sent? If he's combat, that blows the idea that it's using weapon damage out of the water. If it's watchman, there could still be some weirdness such as the internal relic using tech damage or something. I'd like to see what a pyro merc or van parses with a dread guard internal proc relic. I've got a van tank I could respec, but, alas, no DG relic until I get the schem on my artifice. I'm wondering if, perhaps, the similar damage type relics (internal/elemental) use the crit rate for different attack types. As in, if a force user were to use the elemental relic instead of the internal one, would it crit correctly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoax Posted November 27, 2012 Author Share Posted November 27, 2012 Hmm...what spec is the sent? If he's combat, that blows the idea that it's using weapon damage out of the water. If it's watchman, there could still be some weirdness such as the internal relic using tech damage or something. I'd like to see what a pyro merc or van parses with a dread guard internal proc relic. I've got a van tank I could respec, but, alas, no DG relic until I get the schem on my artifice. Yeah, I've tried to sift through some parses on torparse 'statistics' but haven't been lucky enough to find one (wish you could separate NiM and HM with torparse statistics) with the new relics. I'll keep looking. I would also like to see a BH/trooper or a shadow/sin parse to see how the crit is affected. I do have a sin but i dont think i have enough coms to buy the relic just yet. Maybe i'll grind some and see if i can figure it out in the next few days... assuming i can sell it back after the testing since i want the tanky ones first ><. I'm wondering if, perhaps, the similar damage type relics (internal/elemental) use the crit rate for different attack types. As in, if a force user were to use the elemental relic instead of the internal one, would it crit correctly? excellant question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoax Posted November 28, 2012 Author Share Posted November 28, 2012 (edited) actually had enough coms on my sin to buy the relics. Did two 10 min parses with the internal and two 10 mins with the kinetic: http://www.torparse.com/a/58690 My stats (running balance): 37.57% melee crit; 36.48% force crit Internal proc: ~22% crit rate Kinetic proc: ~18% crit rate Difference is probably RNG. I did parses with my gunslinger both in dirty fighting (high bleed crit rates) and SS (no bleed benefits) and it made no difference ... 39-43% crit rates. I'm starting to think it's based on tech crit chance on melee crit chance like I had originally proposed. So all force uses are disadvantaged. Just need a trooper/BH to confirm. EDIT: Found a commando on torparse using internal proc relic. Crit rates are 30-40% for the most part. Have no idea his stats http://www.torparse.com/search?s=anonymous Edited November 28, 2012 by enoax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadandburied Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 (edited) Internal=tech Kinetic=tech Elemental=force Energy=force Test the Elemental one sages and sorcs. It should work fine. But confirmation needed. We just did a bunch of commando testing and verified Internal and Kinetic are using tech crit%. Elemental and Energy crit rate was horribe. So we assume it's using Force crit%. Edited November 28, 2012 by deadandburied Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schnopsnosn Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Internal=tech Kinetic=tech Elemental=force Energy=force Test the Elemental one sages and sorcs. It should work fine. But confirmation needed. We just did a bunch of commando testing and verified Internal and Kinetic are using tech crit%. Elemental and Energy crit rate was horribe. So we assume it's using Force crit%. I tested it back then when only the Rakata-relics were available and I can definitely say that at least Elemental works for Sorcs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoL-K-Noob Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 (edited) Internal=tech Kinetic=tech Elemental=force Energy=force Test the Elemental one sages and sorcs. It should work fine. But confirmation needed. We just did a bunch of commando testing and verified Internal and Kinetic are using tech crit%. Elemental and Energy crit rate was horribe. So we assume it's using Force crit%. WHat the hell, what a freaking waste of 300 comms. This is stupid. I guess its wrong to asumme internal relic would be for an internal type damage user Edited November 28, 2012 by LoL-K-Noob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry_Dallas Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 I tested it back then when only the Rakata-relics were available and I can definitely say that at least Elemental works for Sorcs. Thanks for clearing that up That really should be in an item note somewhere. Thank God I never actually got a schem for the internal proc relic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlosBC Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Internal=tech Kinetic=tech Elemental=force Energy=force Test the Elemental one sages and sorcs. It should work fine. But confirmation needed. We just did a bunch of commando testing and verified Internal and Kinetic are using tech crit%. Elemental and Energy crit rate was horribe. So we assume it's using Force crit%. Is this confirmed? Pretty sure I have internal one on my sorc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colemanron Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 That's good to know, unfortunately i little late. I will definitely send a ticket, to try to get the comms back from customer service, as this is obviously is screwed up design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoax Posted November 28, 2012 Author Share Posted November 28, 2012 (edited) Internal=tech Kinetic=tech Elemental=force Energy=force Test the Elemental one sages and sorcs. It should work fine. But confirmation needed. We just did a bunch of commando testing and verified Internal and Kinetic are using tech crit%. Elemental and Energy crit rate was horribe. So we assume it's using Force crit%. Thanks trigger. You're input has been invaluable helping figure this out both on our on forums and here. It appears correct. Here is a parse using my sin (can't resell back the relic on my sage :/) and the dread guard relic of elemental transcendance (elemental proc) and dread guard relic of cerulean nova My stats: Melee crit (37.48% + 9% talented proc with near 100% uptime ); Force crit 36.39% elemental proc : 42% crit rate (46.5 dps) http://www.torparse.com/a/59418 energy proc: 38% crit rate (40.71 dps) http://www.torparse.com/a/59458 I'm okay with this mechanic... makes it so there is actually a reason to have 4 different procs pieces. However, given the cost of the relics and the fact that the proc mechanics are complete hidden is kinda bs. Edited November 28, 2012 by enoax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoL-K-Noob Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 (edited) I'm okay with this mechanic... makes it so there is actually a reason to have 4 different procs pieces. However, given the cost of the relics and the fact that the proc mechanics are complete hidden is kinda bs. Ya it is, how the hell Is a sage/sorc suppsoe to know they have to use elemental instead of internal when their attacks do internal damage Edited November 28, 2012 by LoL-K-Noob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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