People are leaving the 50's bracket and re-rolling characters so that they can continue to PVP in the 1-49 Brackets.

 

Lets really think about what that means.

 

It means that people would rather do the PVE grind AGAIN then put up with being the equivalent of being grey mobs in WZs who's purpose seems to be to entertain no one but the people who are lucky enough to have more free time or unlucky enough to simply have no life who get to kill you over and over again.

 

It means that PVP is MORE exciting when your adrenaline is pumping because you are in a pitched battle with someone who does the same damage and takes the same damage you do and it really comes down to quick thinking, reflexes and strategy that you EARNED through practice rather then because you have a statistical advantage over your opponent. Where the timing of every shot counts. And obviously that is going to be more exciting then losing simply because your opponent hits far harder and takes far less damage.

 

Gear based "PVP" is not a test of a player vs a player unless people really think that because someone was able to do more repetitive tasks over and over again because they don't have kids, or a job or a life (Or simply are willing to sacrifice those things they should be spending more time on) is somehow something that people can be tested for and be lauded as if they "accomplished" something.

 

The grind olympics? Is that something you want to be remembered for? You were better at wasting more time in your life then someone else so you "win"?

 

If we are going to have brackets, I think we should have a bracket where Expertise is shut off. ESPECIALLY if you are thinking E-sport. And ESPECIALLY if you are going to have a PVP rating system.

 

I have a feeling that bracket would be far more populated.

 

EDIT TO CLEAR UP A MISCONCEPTION: I do not feel that gear should no longer be acquirable through PVP. I feel that gear should be attainable through PVP, and be on par with gear in PVE. And that the advantage gear affords be curbed in PVP across the board. I am not asking for PVE to cause someone to win PVP. Resilience was the wrong answer. Expertise is no better.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Torleen

Having gear matter in pvp is honestly the dumbest thing about MMO pvp.

 

When you can win a fight before a shot is launched just because you outgear somone does not make a good game.

 

The problem is, how do you get people to pvp if gear doesn't matter and they don't have that carrot on a stick?

ya most of the people in those brackets are still trying to level to 50 though too. And the others that reroll to play in a lowbie bracket aren't good pvpers and are too lazy to grind gear.

 

This is a mmo. You have to reward players for investing their time and energy building a character up. Why should you just be able to ding 50 and come in a WZ and dome me when I've put all this effort into the game that you haven't? Why don't you go play an FPS if that's the kind of equal playing field you want. I want my time and energy to mean something. If you weren't such a brat then you could suck it up and grind the gear out like everyone else in EVERY OTHER MMO

Edited February 1, 2012 by Qishari
profanity

Having gear matter in pvp is honestly the dumbest thing about MMO pvp.

 

When you can win a fight before a shot is launched just because you outgear somone does not make a good game.

 

The problem is, how do you get people to pvp if gear doesn't matter and they don't have that carrot on a stick?

 

The carrot on a stick concept actually makes more work for an MMO develper. It was a very bad idea in the first place.

 

People PVPed for hours and hours in SWG and there was no gear given out because you PVPed. You did it because it was fun. Eventually they put in a PVP raiting, but honestly the reward should be the victory you earned.

 

Now, one thing I think we need is more RVR style objectives in the game worlds so that PVP can actually affect the world you are in. The best PVP I did in SWG was base busting, that is being able to destroy buildings that were usually in the cities of the opposing faction. This had affects on the planets in question, it would determine which faction's NPCs would spawn on that planet, etc. Now I know we can't do that necessarily but PVP where when you "win" you actually feel like you are winning a battle in a war rather then just another meaningless repetitive WZ, is far more rewarding.

 

People who addicted to gear based PVP just want to look at a scoreboard with their character's name on it so for a while they can delude themselves into believing that they are better then the people they rated against.

People are leaving the 50's bracket and re-rolling characters so that they can continue to PVP in the 1-49 Brackets.

 

Lets really think about what that means.

 

It means that people would rather do the PVE grind AGAIN then put up with being the equivalent of being grey mobs in WZs who's purpose seems to be to entertain no one but the people who are lucky enough to have more free time or unlucky enough to simply have no life who get to kill you over and over again.

 

It means that PVP is MORE exciting when your adrenaline is pumping because you are in a pitched battle with someone who does the same damage and takes the same damage you do and it really comes down to quick thinking, reflexes and strategy that you EARNED through practice rather then because you have a statistical advantage over your opponent. Where the timing of every shot counts. And obviously that is going to be more exciting then losing simply because your opponent hits far harder and takes far less damage.

 

Gear based "PVP" is not a test of a player vs a player unless people really think that because someone was able to do more repetitive tasks over and over again because they don't have kids, or a job or a life (Or simply are willing to sacrifice those things they should be spending more time on) is somehow something that people can be tested for and be lauded as if they "accomplished" something.

 

The grind olympics? Is that something you want to be remembered for? You were better at wasting more time in your life then someone else so you "win"?

 

If we are going to have brackets, I think we should have a bracket where Expertise is shut off. ESPECIALLY if you are thinking E-sport. And ESPECIALLY if you are going to have a PVP rating system.

 

I have a feeling that bracket would be far more populated.

 

 

/translation I want gear handed to me in pvp.

/translation I want gear handed to me in pvp.

 

Nope. I don't want gear to matter.

 

Player vs Player.

 

Not gear vs. gear.

 

Come on, if you are a PVPer you don't need the crutch. Don't hide behind your gear.

Ultima Online PVP was by far the most fun I've ever had in an MMO.

Even though you could loot your bodies corpse, the main reason to PVP was notoriety and bragging rights.

 

Not a huge fun of the gear but I understand people like farming that kind of stuff at the end game.

ya most of the people in those brackets are still trying to level to 50 though too. And the others that reroll to play in a lowbie bracket aren't good pvpers and are too lazy to grind gear.

 

This is a mmo. You have to reward players for investing their time and energy building a character up. Why should you just be able to ding 50 and come in a WZ and dome me when I've put all this effort into the game that you haven't? Why don't you go play an FPS if that's the kind of equal playing field you want. I want my time and energy to mean something. If you weren't such a brat then you could suck it up and grind the gear out like everyone else in EVERY OTHER MMO

 

You know ALOT of people would just be happy with a Scoreboard so they can see how they compare to others, Which is why most people PvP in the first place, a Ranking system would be much more accepted and loved than a gear system.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Qishari
quoted profanity

Character progression in an MMO? WHAT IS THIS MADNESS?

Nope. I don't want gear to matter.

 

Player vs Player.

 

Not gear vs. gear.

 

Come on, if you are a PVPer you don't need the crutch. Don't hide behind your gear.

 

 

 

Oh I'm sorry, you thought this was an FPS game. See in MMO's there is this thing called progression. I know this is a foreign concept to you but it is what every MMO is based on.

Gear is big equalizer and motivator actually. It allows bad players with good gear to have chance against good players in bad gear.

 

And muddles enough everybody's perception that most don't know is it gear or skill.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Jetflair

Remove the PVP gear and you will be complaining about getting rolled by everyone who raids in a few months. Swtor has only been out for 5'ish weeks. A couple of content patches down the road and you would fall over dead when a raider even looks at you.

 

Getting valor 60 in this game is the easiest I have ever seen in a game that uses such a system. The RNG bag system is horrible, I would bet they will change it later. They probably didn't anticipate that there would be so many players at V60 already and PVP gear as it is threatens to trivialize any meaningful PVE progression.

Gear based "PVP" is not a test of a player vs a player unless people really think that because someone was able to do more repetitive tasks over and over again because they don't have kids, or a job or a life (Or simply are willing to sacrifice those things they should be spending more time on) is somehow something that people can be tested for and be lauded as if they "accomplished" something.

 

You really could have done better than resorting to that kind of level for your argument.

Funny, I didn't get into PvP seriously until we had tons of people running around almost to BM on my server. With all the moddable pieces in blue/purple lvl 50 mods, and high 40s blues or purples everywhere else from questing, I did quite well enough to gear. Even factoring in Expertise, only a few pieces of Centurion were anything resembling an upgrade for me.

 

Anyways, most of the better PvPers I know agree that due to significant DR, Expertise starts to suck somewhere in the 8-9% range. 0-46 Expertise is 1.27%, 314-360, also an increase of 46, is only a gain of 0.82%. The curve seems fairly steady, getting roughly .08% worse each 46 or so.

 

When you start to compare the stats you lose from PvE gear of similar item level, you're looking at something like 150% better gains to damage and survivability in Columi over Champion once you hit the ~350 Exp mark.

 

This is all a fancy way of saying that the gear gap is less statistically significant than you think, and solid entry level type 50 gear will give you a reasonable chance in TEAM ORIENTED PvP.

Remove the PVP gear and you will be complaining about getting rolled by everyone who raids in a few months. Swtor has only been out for 5'ish weeks. A couple of content patches down the road and you would fall over dead when a raider even looks at you.

 

Getting valor 60 in this game is the easiest I have ever seen in a game that uses such a system. The RNG bag system is horrible, I would bet they will change it later. They probably didn't anticipate that there would be so many players at V60 already and PVP gear as it is threatens to trivialize any meaningful PVE progression.

 

Of they could just make gear not matter in PvP.

 

"BUT DEN WAT WULD I DEW 2 WIN?"

Oh I'm sorry, you thought this was an FPS game. See in MMO's there is this thing called progression. I know this is a foreign concept to you but it is what every MMO is based on.

 

No. It's not.

 

Every MMO is different.

 

If you want a measure of progression then go PVE. Measure yourself against a computer AI.

 

We want to measure ourselves against other players. Not code.

 

And there is no reason we could not do this in this MMORPG.

 

Again, PLEASE explain what bragging rights you think you deserve SOLELY because you have more free time?

Having gear matter in pvp is honestly the dumbest thing about MMO pvp.

 

When you can win a fight before a shot is launched just because you outgear somone does not make a good game.

 

The problem is, how do you get people to pvp if gear doesn't matter and they don't have that carrot on a stick?

 

People who like to pvp don't need a carrot on a stick to do so. Before WoW implemented the honor system, there was no gear for pvp, but players still pvped anyway (I miss SS/TM). Its fun to pit yourself against others simply because you could. In an mmo pvp is most dynamic thing the game.

 

I think the carrot on stick model has ruined mmorpg pvp as whole. I look forward to GW2

ya most of the people in those brackets are still trying to level to 50 though too. And the others that reroll to play in a lowbie bracket aren't good pvpers and are too lazy to grind gear.

 

This is a mmo. You have to reward players for investing their time and energy building a character up. Why should you just be able to ding 50 and come in a WZ and dome me when I've put all this effort into the game that you haven't? Why don't you go play an FPS if that's the kind of equal playing field you want. I want my time and energy to mean something. If you weren't such a brat then you could suck it up and grind the gear out like everyone else in EVERY OTHER MMO

 

Because beating someone solely based on gear is kinda lame? It is not fun for the people without the gear and it is fun for like 10 minutes for the people with gear (unless you are really lame). MMOs should be more about knowing what skills to use and when (when to CC, burst, assist, and interrupt). FPS is just about aiming well.

 

I as a MMO gamer have no problem with someone that just reached level 50 having the same chance in pvp as me. Hell, I don't mind level 25s being able to kill a level 50. I rather have a fair fight than some boring one-sided spawn camping wz. Kinda why the NFL>baseball. Each year, all the teams have the same chance to win vs baseball where the teams with the most money do.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Qishari
profanity

No. It's not.

 

Every MMO is different.

 

If you want a measure of progression then go PVE. Measure yourself against a computer AI.

 

We want to measure ourselves against other players. Not code.

 

And there is no reason we could not do this in this MMORPG.

 

Again, PLEASE explain what bragging rights you think you deserve SOLELY because you have more free time?

 

 

 

I do not think I have ever met someone so absolutely clueless as to what an MMO is. Please keep posting, this is entertaining.

 

I always wondered why MMO players mocked the FPS crowd...I am now understanding...

The problem is, how do you get people to pvp if gear doesn't matter and they don't have that carrot on a stick?

 

I don't need a carot to play PVP. I love PVP. I just despise development studios making me run on a hamster wheel chasing gear. That's not what PVP is.

 

If you need a carrot on a stick to get you to play a video game, you need to go see a doctor.

Competition is about WINNING. Not about being fair. People do what it takes to win. They grind for hours and hours on end to get the gear they need to WIN. What you are saying is the equivalent to rigging the olympics to give normal people a chance to beat trained and gifted athletes. Those guys "no lifed" it to get where they are. They had to put WORK in to be competitive. You might say "well this is just a game durr" but so is basketball and football, and those games you watch are played by people who bust their asses to be where they are. Edited February 1, 2012 by Qishari
inappropriate content

I think the carrot on stick model has ruined mmorpg pvp as whole. I look forward to GW2

 

You're not the only one buddy. My entire guild and many people in other guilds I know are DYING for this game to come out. Realm vs Realm and non-gear based PVP. Oh how I rejoice the thought...

Any system that provides any method of obtaining a statistical advantage for one character over another character of the same class (not including consumables) is completely BROKEN.

 

PvP is not and can never be based on an RPG because they are mutually exclusive concepts.

 

RPGs are all about removing the player's impact on the outcome of the character's actions.

 

PvP is all about removing the character's impact on the outcome in order to showcase the player's skill.

Because beating someone solely based on gear is kinda lame? It is not fun for the people without the gear and it is fun for like 10 minutes for the people with gear (unless you are really lame). MMOs should be more about knowing what skills to use and when (when to CC, burst, assist, and interrupt). FPS is just about aiming well.

 

I as a MMO gamer have no problem with someone that just reached level 50 having the same chance in pvp as me. Hell, I don't mind level 25s being able to kill a level 50. I rather have a fair fight than some boring one-sided spawn camping wz. Kinda why the NFL>baseball. Each year, all the teams have the same chance to win vs baseball where the teams with the most money do.

 

And you see, if they were GOOD PLAYERS one of those labels some of these types throw around then they should not mind if the person coming into their bracket has the same chance as them.

 

Is the definition of "good player" someone who grinds more?

 

I don't feel it is. And if that is all it is then I really don't care to be what they consider "good". As that is a pathetic joke of a goal. We need to point out that the carrot on the stick these guys grabbed is actually a big sign over their head that says "LOSER" because if you have to win because of some game code then you are still losing.

 

If someone just coming to the 50 bracket is still on equal footing with you and you have PVPed more then you need to learn to play. Oh look, a logical application for ANOTHER term that they throw around constantly.

 

Is "learning to play" grinding more then everyone else?

 

Or is it practicing, perfecting your build and developing a strategy and skill rotation?

 

Really folks, speak out. Shatter the illusion. These people like living in the matrix where they can pretend they are awesome. Rather then actually being good at something.

 

These people act like they are the top of the food chain in the PVP community. Like they should have the right to look down on or spit on people because they have an e-peen. It's time to bring things back to reality. And the reality is that grinding more does not mean you are a better PVPer. And winning a fight because you had better gear does not make you a better PVPer. It makes you a better grinder. And anyone with free time can grind.

 

REALLY folks, if you are a "good player" or a "hardcore pvper" then why do you need the training wheels? When are you going to be able to ride your bike like a big boy?

Of they could just make gear not matter in PvP.

 

"BUT DEN WAT WULD I DEW 2 WIN?"

 

They would have to do some kind of bolstering system in warzones and world pvp for level 50s. You could make expertise a base stat for max level players so everyone has the same amount...

 

You will still have the same problem. Six months down the road you haven't had any gear progression at all since you are a die hard PVPer. The person who has been raiding has better gear than you, does more damage, has more health, more crit etc.