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PvP Balancing.


Kaedusz's Avatar


Kaedusz
02.23.2021 , 01:40 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by TmoneyTime View Post
Ummmmm..... Are we playing the same game..... most classes only have 1 viable spec. Please explain how balanced the following are Madness vs Lighting or Ani vs Fury...... PT tank vs Jug..... OP dps vs Sin dps..... We have strictly better specs/classes right now.
All these are viable and work well in warzones. Obviously some are going to be a little more powerful in some or all situations than others. But that doesn't make those less powerful unplayable or unfun, that's what balance being good means.

The only way to make it so that none of the classes has any advantage over the other is to move towards all classes being the same and erase class identity. This can't happen in a mmorpg or any rpg for that matter. You are looking for other genre of games as a point of reference.
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supertimtaf's Avatar


supertimtaf
02.23.2021 , 05:01 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Kaedusz View Post
All these are viable and work well in warzones. Obviously some are going to be a little more powerful in some or all situations than others. But that doesn't make those less powerful unplayable or unfun, that's what balance being good means.

The only way to make it so that none of the classes has any advantage over the other is to move towards all classes being the same and erase class identity.
Balanced gameplay means that you will not be more penalized than another player for picking a different option, and that in the end, Skill should be the deciding factor when looking at how a class performs around and against others. To put it in an easier way, you shouldn't have to put a bigger amount of effort into a class in order to achieve the level of contribution another one has.
It doesn't mean that every class will contribute to a game in the same way, but it means that each and every class has its purpose and none is better than another.

This is not the case right now, if you want some example and testings for you to do, I am waiting for your results as a Hatred Sin in ranked and unranked against a Deception Sin. Or a Tank Powertech agains Tank Jugg. Or a lethalithy operative against a concealment... You get my point.

And yes you could also go the way of making everybody more bland. However, this is not the only option, and this is especially easy to do on a MMO, where everything is just numbers and defined successions of actions/reactions. The fact that Bioware has been bad at it until now doesn't mean that every mmo has such blatant skill difference between class.
Eliadil - Deception Assassin Leviathan

All-Galaxy Worst Player Ever, sincerely yours.
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Llacertus's Avatar


Llacertus
02.23.2021 , 11:21 AM | #13
I think the majority of complications have come from the devs trying to balance abilities based on both pvp and pve. It would be much simpler to just separate the two fields of play and have some abilities perform better or worse in pvp than in pve. Just to give an example, it wouldn't take much effort to add in a bit of text reducing firefall's damage by 50% in pvp. This isn't a new concept either. I can think of a number of mmos that have addons similar to that for their abilities.

If Bioware cared enough about the life of this game, they would've made changes like these a long time ago. They could have the actual theory-crafting done for free just by getting together a group of highly experienced players and having them spent a month or so working on rebalancing every ability that needs to be changed. All that would be left after that is implementing all those changes in the game.

Sideblaze's Avatar


Sideblaze
02.23.2021 , 11:25 AM | #14
Honestly, I prefer this to the smash monkey days of old.

supertimtaf's Avatar


supertimtaf
02.23.2021 , 12:55 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Llacertus View Post
I think the majority of complications have come from the devs trying to balance abilities based on both pvp and pve. It would be much simpler to just separate the two fields of play and have some abilities perform better or worse in pvp than in pve. Just to give an example, it wouldn't take much effort to add in a bit of text reducing firefall's damage by 50% in pvp. This isn't a new concept either. I can think of a number of mmos that have addons similar to that for their abilities.

If Bioware cared enough about the life of this game, they would've made changes like these a long time ago. They could have the actual theory-crafting done for free just by getting together a group of highly experienced players and having them spent a month or so working on rebalancing every ability that needs to be changed. All that would be left after that is implementing all those changes in the game.
It would have helped a lot if they could pinpoint the actual issues regarding a spec or a class, as the correct fix usually avoids hurting the side that isn't concerned.

As an example, you can look back on how they handled Arsenal Mercenary in 5.0

Everybody told them that there was an issue with a dps being able to facetank everything. Pvp broke because of Mercenary's ridiculously strong defensive cooldowns and peoples complained about them for months, asking for rightfully deserved nerfs.

Bioware went and nerfed... Arsenal's damage. The thing that nobody asked for. So the issue of stupidly strong cooldowns stayed, in PvP, and they gutted Arsenal in PvE.

If they actually understood the issues, and worked on solving them properly (nerfing the defensive cooldowns) and letting their damage as is, Arsenal would have stayed relevant in PvE and wouldn't have contributed to ruining PvP like they did in 5.0

You can balance things without separating PvE and PvP, but it requires actual understanding and knowledge on how the game works.
Eliadil - Deception Assassin Leviathan

All-Galaxy Worst Player Ever, sincerely yours.
Feel free to use my referal link if you liked my help ! Free stuff for you and me !

TmoneyTime's Avatar


TmoneyTime
02.23.2021 , 01:17 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by supertimtaf View Post
Balanced gameplay means that you will not be more penalized than another player for picking a different option, and that in the end, Skill should be the deciding factor when looking at how a class performs around and against others. To put it in an easier way, you shouldn't have to put a bigger amount of effort into a class in order to achieve the level of contribution another one has.
It doesn't mean that every class will contribute to a game in the same way, but it means that each and every class has its purpose and none is better than another.
That actually makes my point. If you playing high elo well if matching making worked correctly or grouped ranked, certain classes/specs you dont bring. They are not viable at all. Jug is the only tank your going to run. Your never going to run a sin over an op. Carnage over Fury..... nope not gonna happen.

Viable means that classes can compete with the others frankly they can't.

2nd problem that has always been around is classes that are easy tend to actually have the most advantages with dps. Never really understand why AP PT has more damage then Vigilance Jug. AP PT is way easier then the JUG.

Why can ranged classes parse higher then sins maras jugs....... who knows.(well we do know actually Melee in this game gets cried about when its half-way decent ruthless aggressor change anyone. Death Knell nerf but heaven for bid we nerf electro net the outrage)

In Real Terms Melee should always parse higher due to up-time more mechanics evolved it not the case right now.

sithBracer's Avatar


sithBracer
02.23.2021 , 01:43 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by supertimtaf View Post
It would have helped a lot if they could pinpoint the actual issues regarding a spec or a class, as the correct fix usually avoids hurting the side that isn't concerned.

As an example, you can look back on how they handled Arsenal Mercenary in 5.0

Everybody told them that there was an issue with a dps being able to facetank everything. Pvp broke because of Mercenary's ridiculously strong defensive cooldowns and peoples complained about them for months, asking for rightfully deserved nerfs.

Bioware went and nerfed... Arsenal's damage. The thing that nobody asked for. So the issue of stupidly strong cooldowns stayed, in PvP, and they gutted Arsenal in PvE.

If they actually understood the issues, and worked on solving them properly (nerfing the defensive cooldowns) and letting their damage as is, Arsenal would have stayed relevant in PvE and wouldn't have contributed to ruining PvP like they did in 5.0

You can balance things without separating PvE and PvP, but it requires actual understanding and knowledge on how the game works.
Ok I'm going to point out the country sized elephant in the room here. The reason for all these ridiculous DCDs is solo ranked. This completely worthless and impossible to balance mode is causing most of the class inbalance now and has been for a long time.

There IS NO WAY to balance 4 dps vs 4dps deathmatch. There never was, there never will be. Guild wars 2 can't do it and their game is completely built around nothing but dps. There will always be 1 class that is the first target to focus. It might be the best class in group ranked, it might be ridiculously OP in warzones, it might be literally the only class people take into NiM content, but it can still be the poor little darling that is focused in solo ranked.

Originally the poor darlings were the juggs, so BW gave them a super OP ED which was just insanely OP. They nerfed to to just OP after a few weeks (I remember I used my PvE geared jugg who I barely knew how to play and got easy wins in solo ranked in those days). Afterwards it was the the snipers, after that it was the mercs, after that it was the PTs, and now it is juggs again (seriously, has no one other than kreia figured out assassin is the best target yet?). I guess we need to give these poor darlings another super OP defensive CD because they get focused in solo ranked, right?

supertimtaf's Avatar


supertimtaf
02.23.2021 , 03:34 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by sithBracer View Post
Ok I'm going to point out the country sized elephant in the room here. The reason for all these ridiculous DCDs is solo ranked. This completely worthless and impossible to balance mode is causing most of the class inbalance now and has been for a long time.

There IS NO WAY to balance 4 dps vs 4dps deathmatch. There never was, there never will be. Guild wars 2 can't do it and their game is completely built around nothing but dps. There will always be 1 class that is the first target to focus. It might be the best class in group ranked, it might be ridiculously OP in warzones, it might be literally the only class people take into NiM content, but it can still be the poor little darling that is focused in solo ranked.

Originally the poor darlings were the juggs, so BW gave them a super OP ED which was just insanely OP. They nerfed to to just OP after a few weeks (I remember I used my PvE geared jugg who I barely knew how to play and got easy wins in solo ranked in those days). Afterwards it was the the snipers, after that it was the mercs, after that it was the PTs, and now it is juggs again (seriously, has no one other than kreia figured out assassin is the best target yet?). I guess we need to give these poor darlings another super OP defensive CD because they get focused in solo ranked, right?
That's my point as well. Overbuffing something doesn't make for good balancing as well. To be honest, mercs would have been more than fine in 5.0 if they had half of what they received. Even their reflect ability would have been enough for them to make a difference. Good mercs were able to play without it, but after 5.0 dropped, even bad mercs using all cooldowns at once were gathering enough wins to get gold, just because nobody could compete.

While I agree that solo ranked was probably the reason why they got so buffed, there wasn't a need to buff them so much that they'd be invincible against other class. There is a difference between giving one more defensive ability to a class and making them so good that you're throwing a game if you're not playing it.

As an example, Hatred Sin when compared to Deception. Hatred struggles due to low survivability. Does this mean that they need three full life in order to be viable ? Hell no, you can buff them decently so they can become decent without being OP (maybe reducing the damage they take from targets afflicted with their dots, like 5% per dot, to match the perma 15% damage reduction that Deception has).

And maybe if Bioware was more focusing on giving damage dealers offensive abilities instead of trying to make them play like a skank, we wouldn't be that much running into issues. But I guess it's too hard to come up with creative offensive abilities or passives.

Same goes for tanks, who should behave more like protectors and less like immortal beasts. Giving them more tools to defend their team allows them to have an impact without needing to gear with dps equipment. But hurr durr, tonk doesn't need tank stats because cooldowns are too strong.
Eliadil - Deception Assassin Leviathan

All-Galaxy Worst Player Ever, sincerely yours.
Feel free to use my referal link if you liked my help ! Free stuff for you and me !

Kaedusz's Avatar


Kaedusz
02.23.2021 , 11:38 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by supertimtaf View Post
Balanced gameplay means that you will not be more penalized than another player for picking a different option, and that in the end, Skill should be the deciding factor when looking at how a class performs around and against others.
And you are not penalized that much. The worse off classes and specs are not so bad that they are unplayable/unfun and completely useless. Skill still matters a lot with those classes/specs.

I can't for the life of me name a game where skill is the only thing that matters, even a FPS. Maybe chess.
You are going to have to live with the fact that some classes and specs are worse than others in different situations including pvp in general or different situations in pvp - Defending a node, 1v1, trench warfare fest in middle, arena etc.

Btw playing the underpowered spec/class is fun for some people, so there is that also.

If one wants to be a god with every class and spec just because of their skill, that's a wrong attitude, because this is not the right game to channel some kind of super competitive PvP energy.
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supertimtaf's Avatar


supertimtaf
02.24.2021 , 02:07 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Kaedusz View Post
And you are not penalized that much. The worse off classes and specs are not so bad that they are unplayable/unfun and completely useless. Skill still matters a lot with those classes/specs.

I can't for the life of me name a game where skill is the only thing that matters, even a FPS. Maybe chess.
You are going to have to live with the fact that some classes and specs are worse than others in different situations including pvp in general or different situations in pvp - Defending a node, 1v1, trench warfare fest in middle, arena etc.

Btw playing the underpowered spec/class is fun for some people, so there is that also.

If one wants to be a god with every class and spec just because of their skill, that's a wrong attitude, because this is not the right game to channel some kind of super competitive PvP energy.
I think that you forgot the part right after, which IMO is the most important :

The goal is not to make every class "a god tier dps" with cooldowns better than anybody else. The goal is to have any class be able to contribute in some way or another to a victory.

This is not the case currently, and I will ask you one more thing. Again, let us take Inquisitor, be it sorcerer or assassin. For the sake of variety, we'll take sorcerer this time.

We clearly identify what is the goal of Lightnin sorcerer in PvP. It's a highly mobile burst dps, so his contribution is basically "move around, chunk down the enemy's HP". It's pure, simple, damage oriented contribution, with shields on top of this. It works well because... It's good at dealing damage, and has support abilities with the small bubble it can provide.

Now comes the question of Madness : what does Madness actually bring to the table ? It has nowhere the amount of damage and pressure Lightning has, doesn't have more defensive support options, and doesn't provide any more offensive buff that lightning can already provide. So again, it contributes less to a game in any way, and the difference is easily noticed by anybody who did put time playing the two.

Where I disagree however is that you said that I want everybody to be "god tier", which is completely false. What I proposed earlier for Hatred isn't to make it "god tier", the goal is just to reduce the gap between the specs as much as possible when it comes to overall contribution (damage dealt, damage prevented, healing done, damage amplified)

Again, and I'm sure you can agree on this, you should not lose a ranked game just because your opponent has a strictly better class than yours. Or you should not be a deadweight to your team in unranked just because you picked a spec that virtually does nothing against what is considered the meta picks. But ! And this is where I agree with you, you shouldn't make everyone a "god-tier" class as well. But the difference between "best" and "worse" shouldn't be as distinct/big as it is now.
Eliadil - Deception Assassin Leviathan

All-Galaxy Worst Player Ever, sincerely yours.
Feel free to use my referal link if you liked my help ! Free stuff for you and me !