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Why I'm done with PvP

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Why I'm done with PvP
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EllieAnne's Avatar


EllieAnne
01.07.2021 , 07:19 PM | #1
As you may know from reading previous threads, there has been a lot of blowback from casual players about changing unranked PvP into all or none, in other words you only get points for the daily and weekly if you win. We players have pointed out the faults of this system that is geared toward the casual players bearing in mind that "serious" PvPers have ranked warzones to play in.

1) The growing number of PvP guilds/teams going into warzones against PUGs and stomping them. This is the Pros vs. Joes where the Joes rarely win and so get nothing.

2) Warzones that set up 3 vs 4; a team with a healer vs one without; a team that has idiots who abandon objective leaving them unguarded, players that do nothing or leave despite the lockout timer; players actively working for the other team. I have seen all of these so that despite their best efforts, players on such a disadvantaged team cannot hope to get a point.

3) The long queueing time for warzones, and now GSF seems to pop up just as often. For those of you that have played GSF in the past, let that sink in.

4) The fact that the time/reward ratio including consideration of Socialite CQ points now vastly favors GSF and flashpoints.

5) The complete lack of CMs to attend to this issue. We did get a drive-by management reply that basically said they did this to reduce toxicity in warzones. When we pointed out the above issues and that the all-or-none system has contributed to MORE toxicity in unranked, there has been a deafening silence from the CMs. Therefore I conclude that they will not change the system and continue to ignore us so these threads that raise legitimate concerns from the paying community will (as usual) trail off into the aether.

The sad part is that on the rare occasion that we get two equal teams I still have a lot of fun in the warzone and if I lose those close competitive WZs I don't mind that I didn't get a point because I had fun. But that 10% to 20% is not worth the aggravation of the rest of the WZs where there is no way that my team can win despite the best efforts of most (or all) of our team. It is just a time-sink with no enjoyment and I think that I could have speedrun a Kuat instead of this.

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
01.07.2021 , 10:41 PM | #2
Im in the same boat Ellie. And I think people who know me on the forums understand how much of a hardcore pvp fan I’ve been over the years. 3/4 of my over all game time for 9 years has been in pvp till these stupid changes happened.

Reg pvp is going to die off casual players. And only the truely addicted and ranked players will be left. Which mean longer pop times, less matchmaking or worse than now (if at all possible) and eventually people will be begging others just to play regs like they do for ranked (at certain times of the day).

Bioware said they would monitor the changes and make adjustments if needed. We’ll adjustments are needed if people aren’t playing pvp as much or leaving the game. Are Bioware actually monitoring those numbers or just how many people aren’t leaving matches.

I’d like to see (which I know is a pipe dream) the 6 month data before the changes vs after the changes. I hope Bioware are reviewing it all and not only looking at one data set to support their changes.

Mournblood's Avatar


Mournblood
01.08.2021 , 02:23 AM | #3
For the first 7 years or so that I played this game, I spent most of my time doing PvP. Both in unranked, and ranked back when we had 8v8 ranked matches. I've posted guild videos, have authored guides and helped train guildmates, and I even joined a Republic PvP guild (Cambodian Warpigs) on my one and only Republic alt, who at the time was the main competition for my Empire guild (Grim Determination).

Over the years, PvP in this game has steadily declined in terms of balance (class balance and team balance), worsening team play (which was primarily due to ranked refugees flooding into unranked and kill farming versus playing the objectives), degrading performance issues (desynch, latency, etc.), cheating (which has become so rampant that Bioware has to do audits each ranked season), and an inversely proportional amount of toxicity (which to be fair, has dramatically increased in all areas of the game, not just PvP). It finally reached the point where continuing to PvP was driving me toward hating the game. So I stopped. I haven't PvP'd in this game in over two years, and it was the best decision I ever made.

You might consider doing the same, and if you do, you might be pleasantly surprised how little you miss it and how much more you enjoy the game without it.
Mourne, Founder

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
01.08.2021 , 02:51 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Mournblood View Post
For the first 7 years or so that I played this game, I spent most of my time doing PvP. Both in unranked, and ranked back when we had 8v8 ranked matches. I've posted guild videos, have authored guides and helped train guildmates, and I even joined a Republic PvP guild (Cambodian Warpigs) on my one and only Republic alt, who at the time was the main competition for my Empire guild (Grim Determination).

Over the years, PvP in this game has steadily declined in terms of balance (class balance and team balance), worsening team play (which was primarily due to ranked refugees flooding into unranked and kill farming versus playing the objectives), degrading performance issues (desynch, latency, etc.), cheating (which has become so rampant that Bioware has to do audits each ranked season), and an inversely proportional amount of toxicity (which to be fair, has dramatically increased in all areas of the game, not just PvP). It finally reached the point where continuing to PvP was driving me toward hating the game. So I stopped. I haven't PvP'd in this game in over two years, and it was the best decision I ever made.

You might consider doing the same, and if you do, you might be pleasantly surprised how little you miss it and how much more you enjoy the game without it.
Yes, all good points and why I stopped playing lvl 75 regs during last year. And I’ve now stopped playing low and mid pvp too because match making often puts me in unbalanced arena teams, ie 2v4 or 3v4 in situations where the team with 4 has nearly all max lvl players for the bracket and myself and my team of 1 or 2 are at the bottom of the bracket.

Bioware have severely dropped the ball on all pvp, but significantly neglected low and mid bracket pvp which has led to players jumping straight into pvp for the first time at max lvl. Which degraded the quality of lvl 75 reg pvp as much as everything else you mentioned.

Bioware ONLY seem to care watch the ranked crowd want or care about. They have a voice on discord and get to express their wants or disappointments in nearly live time with some devs. But if you aren’t part of that in crowd or you dispute Bioware policy you aren’t welcome and are silenced. Bioware are now in a isolated and self perpetuating feedback bubble with these guys. If only we got the same courtesy on the forums to our questions and concerns and Bioware cared enough about the reg / casual player base as they do about the elite players in ranked and operations.

Luckily, Ive discovered I do not need to rely on doing pvp to get the social conquest points, I don’t even need to be in a public group. I can get those points done grouped with my wife doing uprisings. So I don’t think I’ll be stepping back into any lvl of pvp in this game again because Bioware don’t care enough to fix it. Which is extremely sad as it used to be my favourite part of this game. I’m now getting my pvp fix playing another game called Star Wars Squadrons. I get my barbie / story / Lightsabre fix in swtor, but that’s becoming more and more boring as I’ve done it for 9 years. At least pvp was always different. I will be sad when swtor pvp or this game finally dies, but I think it will be nostalgic sadness because swtor pvp has already died for me.

JackieKo's Avatar


JackieKo
01.08.2021 , 10:26 AM | #5 Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread. Next  
Quote: Originally Posted by TrixxieTriss View Post

Bioware said they would monitor the changes...
Wanted to chime in and say the team is paying attention to and monitoring feedback.

To everyone in this thread, I also wanted to give a heads up that I will be moving this thread to the PvP sub-forum.
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-Bob-'s Avatar


-Bob-
01.08.2021 , 10:56 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by EllieAnne View Post
As you may know from reading previous threads, there has been a lot of blowback from casual players about changing unranked PvP into all or none, in other words you only get points for the daily and weekly if you win. We players have pointed out the faults of this system that is geared toward the casual players bearing in mind that "serious" PvPers have ranked warzones to play in.

1) The growing number of PvP guilds/teams going into warzones against PUGs and stomping them. This is the Pros vs. Joes where the Joes rarely win and so get nothing.

2) Warzones that set up 3 vs 4; a team with a healer vs one without; a team that has idiots who abandon objective leaving them unguarded, players that do nothing or leave despite the lockout timer; players actively working for the other team. I have seen all of these so that despite their best efforts, players on such a disadvantaged team cannot hope to get a point.

3) The long queueing time for warzones, and now GSF seems to pop up just as often. For those of you that have played GSF in the past, let that sink in.

4) The fact that the time/reward ratio including consideration of Socialite CQ points now vastly favors GSF and flashpoints.

5) The complete lack of CMs to attend to this issue. We did get a drive-by management reply that basically said they did this to reduce toxicity in warzones. When we pointed out the above issues and that the all-or-none system has contributed to MORE toxicity in unranked, there has been a deafening silence from the CMs. Therefore I conclude that they will not change the system and continue to ignore us so these threads that raise legitimate concerns from the paying community will (as usual) trail off into the aether.

The sad part is that on the rare occasion that we get two equal teams I still have a lot of fun in the warzone and if I lose those close competitive WZs I don't mind that I didn't get a point because I had fun. But that 10% to 20% is not worth the aggravation of the rest of the WZs where there is no way that my team can win despite the best efforts of most (or all) of our team. It is just a time-sink with no enjoyment and I think that I could have speedrun a Kuat instead of this.
Maybe the problem with PVP is that there are rewards attached to it to begin with.....
While unsubbed these last few months I only did my 10 free weeklies on lowbies / midbies. In that time i couldn't pick up a weekly or daily mission for PVP, I didnt care i played anyways. I wasn't playing for the rewards, i was playing simply for the fun of fighting other players. In most cases, my matches were arenas and i found them to be much more enjoyable than the occasional 8 man objective maps where the majority of people had no idea what to do, that is the only time i found frustration.
Maybe BW should revisit the gear grind for PVP and remove rewards for unranked WZs altogether. If you're only engaged in PVP for the rewards, then perhaps you're engaged in PVP for the wrong reasons? beating other players should be a reward unto itself.
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merovejec's Avatar


merovejec
01.08.2021 , 11:00 AM | #7
I just wanted to expand on GSF, which was mentioned. I also started to play GSF instead of ranked due to the rewards of the fragments. Gsf gives much more for the time invested and also gives a point for loss. I think thats why it draws more players than PVP.
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Mournblood's Avatar


Mournblood
01.08.2021 , 11:19 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by JackieKo View Post
Wanted to chime in and say the team is paying attention to and monitoring feedback.

Over the years, I've submitted several suggestions to Keith (who appears to no longer be available) and Eric regarding ways that they could improve unranked PvP. None of those suggestions were ultimately implemented, which isn't to say that I necessarily know what's best for the game over your development team, but reasonable feedback from a player who's primary game focus at the time was PvP seemed to be ignored.

You say you guys are listening, but to be blunt, that hasn't been my experience over the many years I've been playing this game when it comes to PvP, and it was certainly a contributing factor to why I quit PvP completely. Below are the suggestions I had sent prior to my last military deployment to Africa in 2019, and the dates they were sent on.....

5/17/18

Since you're looking at PvP WZs in particular, among other proposed changes, I wanted to preface this by bringing to your attention a relatively new issue that's been discussed recently here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=949124. From my perspective, this issue has a negative impact on player experience, and in some respects, is similar to the AFK issue in that players are ignoring objectives and not helping their team to win the match. In other cases, a premade will score twice in Huttball, then hold the ball while they farm the other team. However some players may rationalize this, it's toxic behavior that damages the player experience of other players on the receiving end of this behavior. Vote kicking will not work here, because these players are typically in a full premade and you can't simply kick half the team. Not to mention that vote kicking AFKers in a match has never worked in my long experience PvPing in this game. Certainly there are bigger issues you are looking at, such as the rampant queue exploiting in Ranked, acid teams in Ranked, and outright cheating/hacking. But since you're looking at PvP WZs in general, and economy of resources is an inexorable component of your development efforts at this point, it seemed that this was the perfect opportunity to propose a suggestion specific to regular WZs that may solve several problems all at once.

Currently, you receive the maximum CXP in regular WZs once you've accrued 8 contribution medals. You also receive 8 UC (Unassembled Components) for a loss, and 20 UC for a win. The common denominator of problems in regular WZs, like many things, is player behavior. In order to affect positive change, you need to address the player behavior itself. My proposal to do this is to change the way contribution medals work in regular WZs. I'll detail those changes more below, but what I hope you'll find attractive about this idea is that it won't involve a lot of new coding or any new game mechanics. You'll simply be able to use the existing contribution medals game mechanic by making some adjustments to the existing code. There are as follows:
  1. Reduce the number of medals for doing damage or healing. This should be a one time medal, based on reaching a certain threshold that scales with the character level. Such as at level 70, if you do at least 1 million damage or at least 1 million healing, you get one contribution medal for that. That's it. This will help de-incentivize players from spending an entire match farming other players and ignoring the objectives.
  2. Medals for crit heals or crit damage should be removed entirely. It's basically redundant to #1. Reduce or remove other medals that are superfluous to the objectives. I believe there's even a medal for a solo kill. Whatever you decide to keep, players who do not contribute to the objectives, be it guarding, capturing, killing a ball carrier, scoring a ball, planting a bomb, disarming a bomb, etc. should be getting very few medals comparatively.
  3. Increase the number of medals for doing anything that is related to an objective. For example, if I guard a node the entire match during Civil War, Yavin, or Novare Coast, I usually get 8 medals total. Considering how critical it is to winning a match to guard an objective, this activity should be worth considerably more medals. It will also help incentivize this activity so that more players will actually want to guard an objective. If you spend an entire match guarding a node, you should be getting twice as many medals as someone who spent the entire match farming players off node.
  4. Increase medals for other objective related activity, such as capturing a node (Civil War/Yavin/Novare Coast), scoring with a ball or killing a ball carrier (Huttball/Quesh), planting a bomb (Voidstar), using a buff (Odessen). And so on.
  5. Tie UC to medals. So instead of 8 UC for a loss and 20 UC for a win, make each contribution medal earned during a WZ equal to 1 UC. So if you obtain 20 contribution medals by the end of the match, you'll get 20 UC. If you only get 2 contribution medals because all you did was farm players, you'll only get 2 UC. This will reinforce the incentives of playing objective based PvP WZs in the manner in which they were intended.
  6. Increase the CXP return based on medals. Currently, you do not get any more CXP for earning more than 8 medals. Once you have 8, there's really no reason in the current system to get more. If CXP rewards are also tied to medals, it is one more way to reinforce and incentivize appropriate player behavior in WZs.
The basic idea here is to completely reverse the contribution medal scores so that players who are actually playing the objectives will get a lot more medals, CXP, and UC. Players who want to ignore objectives or AFK, will see little or no return on their time. Eventually, they'll stop doing it.

I think this is something you can more easily do with your limited resources, and that it will have a good return on investment for your time/efforts in that it will discourage aberrant behavior in regular WZs. If you find this suggestion useful, and actually implement it, all I ask is that you give me a little credit for it. If you can't do that, I'll be content to see these types of changes as I truly believe it will make a tremendous difference in regular PvP WZs for everyone.


6/6/18

I know you guys are reading the discussions carefully that are occurring on the forums surrounding the proposed changes that are coming to PvP in 5.9.2, but I feel I need to be more direct in my opinion about the changes as it pertains to premades. To put this in context, I'm the guild leader of a PvP guild that has been doing premades in regular WZs for almost 6 years now, but to be blunt, I believe you need to pull the plug on premades outside of Team Ranked. Regular WZs and GSF should be limited to solo queues only.

The underlying reason for this is that without the ability to create a separate matchmaking system for group queues, even with the proposed limits to group composition, premades will continue to represent an unbalancing influence in both WZs and GSF. There is no offsetting the advantage of veteran, skilled, geared players coordinating in voice chat, and since Eric already stated that premade teams will not be split up by the matchmaking system, it's very possible and likely to see a PUG team (players who solo queued) playing against a premade team. The healer/tank stacking limitations, while helpful, won't balance that equation.

I understand the premise of an MMO is being able to play with your friends and guild mates, but honestly, that opportunity exists in Team Ranked and the entire PvE side of the game. If players want to form groups for PvP, and there is no group only queue system to support that, then they need to be limited to Team Ranked. The people who ultimately make the development decisions on your team may not see this if they aren't playing the game regularly, but it's the reality of the situation that in the absence of a more robust (e.g. cross-server) matchmaking system, all your great efforts and work toward making PvP more fair and fun for ALL players will continue to be undermined by premades.


Again, these are all old issues that continue to affect unranked PvP, and while I've stopped PvPing since 2019, I think these suggestions are still applicable and valuable. Perhaps you guys should sit down with some players to discuss a better way forward, because simply listening to our feedback doesn't seem to be working very well.
Mourne, Founder

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
01.08.2021 , 11:59 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by JackieKo View Post
Wanted to chime in and say the team is paying attention to and monitoring feedback.

To everyone in this thread, I also wanted to give a heads up that I will be moving this thread to the PvP sub-forum.
Thanks Jackie for the heads up.

Any chance there might be an incoming yellow dev post soon regarding the issues discussed here and in many other threads for the last 3 months?

Rhys_lightning's Avatar


Rhys_lightning
01.08.2021 , 12:07 PM | #10
In all honestly I can relate to this, no offence to the bioware team, but we see nothing but empty promises, you may not like it but thats the truth, there has been cases where I have many reports of players with poor behaviour and toxicity, all because they're nothing more but low lives who live in their mother basements. thinking they are amazing at life over some game, while in real life they can't achieve anything.

My only solution is this, as a saying goes 'spare the rod spoil the child'. Uninstall ranked PVP from the game, permanently. As aside for SWTOR or any other games with competitive pvp, ranked has been proven to be the most toxic and the fastest ways to loose players. So if want a steady community uninstall it, for let's be honest what really the reward for ranked? £1000 or $1000 or other kind of money? no. 50,000 cartell coins? no. just fancy bits of pixels, which all worth nothing in life.

So if want a steady system and positive things for pvp here's what you do.

1) Uninstall ranked pvp
2) Do your bloody job. if someone did a wrong, and evidence was provided you do you job to ban them, not warn them or give a week ban, you permanently ban them, and if they're that sad to make another account and waist there money let them. as it'll be nothing but a end to them waisting ones money on their salty attitude.

3) filters, as like how you did on flashpoints and operations of giving people filters of which they want to do, why not do that for pvp? so people can do the pvps they want to do in which makes them feel comfortable of whats around them.