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DPS Guard Changes

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ChrisDurel's Avatar


ChrisDurel
09.16.2020 , 10:12 AM | #1 This is the last staff post in this thread.  
Hi all,

I wanted to communicate some changes we are making to guard for 6.1.4 that are going to be live on PTS soon. We’ve heard your feedback about Guarding in PVP and we are hoping to address some of those concerns with this change.

We’ve added a 50% damage penalty to DPS disciplines while they are guarding allies. The full text of the new DPS guard is:
Spoiler

All this means is that while you guard allies as a DPS discipline, you do less damage while you are guarding that ally. It’s worth noting that this only applies to the DPS disciplines, Tank disciplines do not suffer this penalty and can freely guard as usual with no penalty.

The purpose of this change is to discourage the use of guard in every situation in PVP. While we feel like guarding is a useful skill and important to the advanced classes that have access to it, it has become clear that it is being abused in PVP by guarding and guard switching with no penalty. This makes PVP unbalanced towards the disciplines that have access to guard.

With this change, we are hoping that guard is used more thoughtfully in PVP while still retaining its usefulness in certain situations. We’d love to hear your feedback on this change, specifically if you think it helps the PVP experience overall, if the penalty feels fair, and after you get your hands on it if there’s any noticeable difference to guarding and team composition in PVP.

Thanks!
Chris Durel | Gameplay Designer
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JediMasterAlex's Avatar


JediMasterAlex
09.16.2020 , 10:28 AM | #2
Excellent change. Can't wait to see it in action.

NeoBlakkrstal's Avatar


NeoBlakkrstal
09.16.2020 , 10:34 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by ChrisDurel View Post
Hi all,

I wanted to communicate some changes we are making to guard for 6.1.4 that are going to be live on PTS soon. We’ve heard your feedback about Guarding in PVP and we are hoping to address some of those concerns with this change.

We’ve added a 50% damage penalty to DPS disciplines while they are guarding allies. The full text of the new DPS guard is:
Spoiler

All this means is that while you guard allies as a DPS discipline, you do less damage while you are guarding that ally. It’s worth noting that this only applies to the DPS disciplines, Tank disciplines do not suffer this penalty and can freely guard as usual with no penalty.

The purpose of this change is to discourage the use of guard in every situation in PVP. While we feel like guarding is a useful skill and important to the advanced classes that have access to it, it has become clear that it is being abused in PVP by guarding and guard switching with no penalty. This makes PVP unbalanced towards the disciplines that have access to guard.

With this change, we are hoping that guard is used more thoughtfully in PVP while still retaining its usefulness in certain situations. We’d love to hear your feedback on this change, specifically if you think it helps the PVP experience overall, if the penalty feels fair, and after you get your hands on it if there’s any noticeable difference to guarding and team composition in PVP.

Thanks!
So, once again the PvE community must suffer because of the abuse by the PvP community. Good to know, good to know.
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Lord_Keyrus's Avatar


Lord_Keyrus
09.16.2020 , 10:37 AM | #4
Can you please make the 50% damage penalty only apply to damage to other players, the same way the damage transfer on guard works? Having dps guard in operations is a common way of handling certain mechanics, and this will completely ruin the way people do those fights.

avenger_online's Avatar


avenger_online
09.16.2020 , 10:41 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by NeoBlakkrstal View Post
So, once again the PvE community must suffer because of the abuse by the PvP community. Good to know, good to know.
not really, guarding is for tanks, dps using it in pve can also be seen as an "abuse" aswell

EnzoForMe's Avatar


EnzoForMe
09.16.2020 , 10:43 AM | #6
Excellent change Chris! I think most people feel dps being able to offguard is okay, as long as there is a a significant trade-off. As you mentioned, it's currently the default best choice in nearly every solo ranked situation. Lowering the damage output from the person that's guarding is exactly the type of change I was hoping to see.
Caprica
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Oeconomicus's Avatar


Oeconomicus
09.16.2020 , 10:51 AM | #7
Make sure that this change does not effect the gameplay of PVE (guard is important for threat management in certain boss mechanics) and the change will be fine.

Stop scapegoating PVE for wrongdoing in PVP.
Duct tape is like the force. It has a light side, and a dark side, and it holds the universe together.

SlimPikinz's Avatar


SlimPikinz
09.16.2020 , 10:56 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Lord_Keyrus View Post
Can you please make the 50% damage penalty only apply to damage to other players?
Since this change is focused around PVP, I think this is a reasonable request.

It could read something like: You deal 50% less damage to enemy players while guarding.

Chris, can you explore this option and how it would effect PVP and PVE?
Resol'nare: Ba'jur, Beskar'gam, Ara'nov, Aliit, Mando'a bal Mand'alor- An vencuyan mhi.

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
09.16.2020 , 11:14 AM | #9
Well, I'm thrilled about the prospect of a nerf to my class utility with no survivability buff! Excellent idea, will really help the just absolutely dominant pvp class of focus and vigi guardians. Really, maybe I'll actually have a reason to play the absolutely horrible concentration sent i have but that was just totally outclassed with no utility or team play because it can't guard! (/sarcasm for the challenged among us).

Ok, on to more serious discussion. As I've said, do what you want up to taking guard away totally, I really don't care.

I still see irony in that even BWs combat devs are suddenly, after what, 3 major expansions and over half a decade since they got rid of skill trees (and thus, swappable forms), taking issue with dps guard.

What changed since then? If this is a problem BW chose to ignore for over half a decade, why address it now? Because there are more players in PvP who can't dps is my guess.

Also, what of the raid bosses where this is a mechanic? Yes, guard already has a pvp and pve mechanic, so it would seem possible to make the dps penalty pvp only. But this is BW we're talking about. I fully expect something along the lines of a straight 25% damage nerf regardless of whether I have guard on or not. And that might get fixed somewhere down the road 9 months from now. (It took them what 6 months to address the battlefield command/warmonger bug and another 3-4 months to fix it?)

And finally, when I play dps guardian, id argue most of my protection comes from taunts, not guard. Taunts are off the GCD, spammable on CD, have no effect on my dps (which guard actually did in pvp because you go through DCDs faster, and if you're not careful enough die faster), and have a major effect on the opponent dps. Where's the fury and outrage against guard? Where's the BW nerf on guard?

But I guess, its nice to know where BWs priorities lie. No content updates in nearly a year, fixes to major class bugs (like warmonger/battlefield command) take nearly a year, idiotic decisions like amplifiers and endgame pve being level 70 are locked in; but no dps guard nerf, that's the real problem with swtor!

Good to know you have your priorities right, Mr Durel. Oh, and its also nice to know Mr Musco found someone to do his dirty work. Good job guys, really excellent decision and you totally have your priorities and strategy straight for a game with an obviously limited budget and scope. Ok, sarcasm off again, this makes me even more confident in my decision to basically leave swtor for the new marvel avengers game. It might be buggy, glitchy, and crash frequently, but hey, you guys prepared me well for buggy and glitchy games! As long as SE/CD fixes the issues there in less than a decade, they already have a leg up on EA/BW.

TLDR: fine, I don't care. But seriously BW figure out your prioriites already.

AtomFromLU's Avatar


AtomFromLU
09.16.2020 , 11:19 AM | #10
Hi Chris,

I have to agree with the many concerns for PVE. As a long-time raider in the game, this is going to create a nightmare for PVE. PVE was not mentioned a single time in this post, which leads me to believe it was not even considered in this decision. Changes like this may make one side of the player base happy and content, but you are simultaneously stabbing your raiding community in the back. I strongly agree that this should be 50% reduced damage against players. In raiding situations where a single tank is used, fights like the hateful entity for example, this leaves the group with 1 guard. Only 1. At that point, the guard may as well just be a talent for the tank classes, because it effectively removes any change a DPS will use it. I apologize if my words seem harsh, but decisions that improve one half of the game and push the other half away need to stop. There has to be a division in these 2 aspects of the game.

Thank you,
A Concerned Player