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Progression Double-Monetized in 6.0?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Progression Double-Monetized in 6.0?

robertthebard's Avatar


robertthebard
06.19.2019 , 04:52 PM | #51
Quote: Originally Posted by FlatTax View Post
The reverse is unethical: making an earned advantage cash-purchasable.

Microtransactions shouldn't be linked to progression and gearing, as a matter of bedrock principle. And, if customer respect were a thing, microtransactions wouldn't exist at all for actively paying subscribers.
This isn't a SP game. The store likely does more business a month than they take in subs, and as much as you're adverse to businesses making money, that's what they're here to do. Like I said, let me know when you can actually buy the gear. Because what you're getting all worked up about doesn't really apply.

Let me guess, you believe that all DLC, no matter when it was made, should be free because you bought the game? You see, there's more going on here than MXTs bad, there are also bad faith actors posting threads against any and all MTXs, and this thread, based on this quote alone, is just that. "We pay a sub, all the stuff in the CS should be free"... That's literally what you just said in this quoted post. No.
Quote: Originally Posted by Transcendent View Post
Also, just a small point. Why should anyone who plays this game exclusively for any particular type of content, have to run a different type of content just to earn gear? What is that attitude all about?

FlatTax's Avatar


FlatTax
06.19.2019 , 07:45 PM | #52
Quote: Originally Posted by robertthebard View Post
"We pay a sub, all the stuff in the CS should be free"... That's literally what you just said in this quoted post. No.
There's literally nothing in the cash shop that should be withheld from a subscriber. Some of it's astoundingly shameful, like pay-walling basic administrative functions ($10.90 to re-name a guild ship?). The gambling products may soon be illegal. And no, the CC ration isn't meaningful.

It's a disgrace.

Darevsool's Avatar


Darevsool
06.19.2019 , 09:54 PM | #53
Quote: Originally Posted by FlatTax View Post
There's literally nothing in the cash shop that should be withheld from a subscriber. Some of it's astoundingly shameful, like pay-walling basic administrative functions ($10.90 to re-name a guild ship?). The gambling products may soon be illegal. And no, the CC ration isn't meaningful.

It's a disgrace.
I disagree with you on this point.

The Cartel Market is maybe 95% cosmetic stuff that has absolutely no bearing on game play or leveling. Unique armor skins, weapons, mounts, etc. You want shiny stuff, pay for it. I have no problem with that.

The various XP boosts available for cartel coins are a convenience, not required. I also have no problem with that.
They are actually handed out free for some of the early class / story quests...and two PVE space missions (the first time you run them).

Going by the title of this thread, it isn't "progression" that is double monetized, it's the possibility to spend CC to make leveling a tad bit faster that's "monetized" via the cartel market.

Which I also don't have a problem with....because as mentioned, there are xp boosts given out as quest rewards that you can save up and use whenever you want.
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robertthebard's Avatar


robertthebard
06.20.2019 , 06:43 AM | #54
Quote: Originally Posted by Darevsool View Post
I disagree with you on this point.

The Cartel Market is maybe 95% cosmetic stuff that has absolutely no bearing on game play or leveling. Unique armor skins, weapons, mounts, etc. You want shiny stuff, pay for it. I have no problem with that.

The various XP boosts available for cartel coins are a convenience, not required. I also have no problem with that.
They are actually handed out free for some of the early class / story quests...and two PVE space missions (the first time you run them).

Going by the title of this thread, it isn't "progression" that is double monetized, it's the possibility to spend CC to make leveling a tad bit faster that's "monetized" via the cartel market.

Which I also don't have a problem with....because as mentioned, there are xp boosts given out as quest rewards that you can save up and use whenever you want.

It's true. I was sorting out cargo bays yesterday, and found that I have 20 toons with at least 14 one hour xp boosts that I got from story content. I know that's where I got them because they're all bound to character. I didn't need them for leveling then, and I don't see needing them for leveling now, or in the future.


Edit: Yep, they're totally evil aren't they?
Quote: Originally Posted by Transcendent View Post
Also, just a small point. Why should anyone who plays this game exclusively for any particular type of content, have to run a different type of content just to earn gear? What is that attitude all about?

FlatTax's Avatar


FlatTax
06.20.2019 , 03:13 PM | #55
The great thing about this debate is that it will be resolved conclusively.

Either double-boosted Renown drops will be the primary feeder for Amps and/or Tacticals, or they won't.

I bet they will. Through the lens of corporate issue-framing, they've all but confirmed it.

robertthebard's Avatar


robertthebard
06.21.2019 , 06:45 AM | #56
Quote: Originally Posted by FlatTax View Post
The great thing about this debate is that it will be resolved conclusively.

Either double-boosted Renown drops will be the primary feeder for Amps and/or Tacticals, or they won't.

I bet they will. Through the lens of corporate issue-framing, they've all but confirmed it.
Yep, they've all but confirmed that they're corporate greedy bastards by removing monetization from the game, in the July update. Follow the link in the edit to my previous post.
Quote: Originally Posted by Transcendent View Post
Also, just a small point. Why should anyone who plays this game exclusively for any particular type of content, have to run a different type of content just to earn gear? What is that attitude all about?

Joonbeams's Avatar


Joonbeams
06.21.2019 , 08:40 AM | #57
Quote: Originally Posted by FlatTax View Post
There's literally nothing in the cash shop that should be withheld from a subscriber. Some of it's astoundingly shameful, like pay-walling basic administrative functions ($10.90 to re-name a guild ship?). The gambling products may soon be illegal. And no, the CC ration isn't meaningful.

It's a disgrace.
Arbitrary is Arbitrary
Should anything be withheld from the F2P players? If so, why? Why not make all of the items in the CM free to everyone? Why even require a sub at all?

If you think these are facetious questions, they are not. The line between what should be included with a sub and what shouldn't be is entirely arbitrary--utterly, and completely, arbitrary. And arguments build on arbitrary foundations aren't compelling.

SWTOR Isn't P2W
You continue to suggest XP boosts and other items in this game are P2W. They aren't. I've addressed this strawman already:
  • Gear isn't required to "win"
  • Stat-based gear cannot be purchased with real cash; only awarded through play
  • Cosmetic items & consumables are available in a cash shop, but also resellable in game for no real cash outlay
  • Just by subscribing, one gets 500 (actually 600) CM coins/month
  • XP boosts can be purchased, but are also awarded regularly in-game
  • Earning in-game credits is fairly easy and non-grindy

Unintended Consequences
You're also not thinking through all the ramifications of your points. Suppose they did away with XP boosts from the CM, and the only way you could earn them was through playing. What would that do to the player, like me, who has very limited time to play and wishes to accelerate leveling as much as possible? Should I have to slog through everything slowly all over again every time I want try something new, even if I'm willing to pay for the option not to? Should only players with oodles of time be able to accelerate gameplay. Or should XP boosts be eliminated altogether then?

Additionally, if renaming guild ships, or guilds, or legacies/toons, was free and unlimited, what would that do to the game? Have you thought this through? It would be incredibly destabilizing both to active players and on the backend as well. Setting a price for this option makes it so that only those players who are willing to part with something for this option will get to do so -- and incredibly useful and smart gatekeeping mechanic (and remember, the initial name choice is free).

All CM Items Can Be Acquired In Game
As for the CM itself, every item purchased there can be resold for in-game currency without spending a dime extra of real cash. And there are a number of mechanics in game that make earning credits fairly easy (and for some like me, fun). I get almost every CM item I want from the GTN. If the devs didn't allow this, I would be buying these things of the CM.

Microtransactions in SWTOR are Reasonable
Your general issue is that you don't like microtransactions. Microtransactions are no doubt a scourge on gaming generally. But in this game specifically, they've been handled in a fairly tame and sensible way, balancing legitimate business interests with player-friendly alternatives....

lightSaberAddiCt's Avatar


lightSaberAddiCt
06.21.2019 , 02:57 PM | #58
Quote: Originally Posted by FlatTax View Post
There's literally nothing in the cash shop that should be withheld from a subscriber. Some of it's astoundingly shameful, like pay-walling basic administrative functions ($10.90 to re-name a guild ship?). The gambling products may soon be illegal. And no, the CC ration isn't meaningful.

It's a disgrace.
I make on average aroun 15-20m a month from that CC ration you say isn't meaningful.
Just Click It for Free Stuff I need the CC
http://www.swtor.com/r/Hj4n32

lightSaberAddiCt's Avatar


lightSaberAddiCt
06.21.2019 , 02:59 PM | #59
Quote: Originally Posted by Joonbeams View Post
Arbitrary is Arbitrary
Should anything be withheld from the F2P players? If so, why? Why not make all of the items in the CM free to everyone? Why even require a sub at all?

If you think these are facetious questions, they are not. The line between what should be included with a sub and what shouldn't be is entirely arbitrary--utterly, and completely, arbitrary. And arguments build on arbitrary foundations aren't compelling.

SWTOR Isn't P2W
You continue to suggest XP boosts and other items in this game are P2W. They aren't. I've addressed this strawman already:
  • Gear isn't required to "win"
  • Stat-based gear cannot be purchased with real cash; only awarded through play
  • Cosmetic items & consumables are available in a cash shop, but also resellable in game for no real cash outlay
  • Just by subscribing, one gets 500 (actually 600) CM coins/month
  • XP boosts can be purchased, but are also awarded regularly in-game
  • Earning in-game credits is fairly easy and non-grindy

Unintended Consequences
You're also not thinking through all the ramifications of your points. Suppose they did away with XP boosts from the CM, and the only way you could earn them was through playing. What would that do to the player, like me, who has very limited time to play and wishes to accelerate leveling as much as possible? Should I have to slog through everything slowly all over again every time I want try something new, even if I'm willing to pay for the option not to? Should only players with oodles of time be able to accelerate gameplay. Or should XP boosts be eliminated altogether then?

Additionally, if renaming guild ships, or guilds, or legacies/toons, was free and unlimited, what would that do to the game? Have you thought this through? It would be incredibly destabilizing both to active players and on the backend as well. Setting a price for this option makes it so that only those players who are willing to part with something for this option will get to do so -- and incredibly useful and smart gatekeeping mechanic (and remember, the initial name choice is free).

All CM Items Can Be Acquired In Game
As for the CM itself, every item purchased there can be resold for in-game currency without spending a dime extra of real cash. And there are a number of mechanics in game that make earning credits fairly easy (and for some like me, fun). I get almost every CM item I want from the GTN. If the devs didn't allow this, I would be buying these things of the CM.

Microtransactions in SWTOR are Reasonable
Your general issue is that you don't like microtransactions. Microtransactions are no doubt a scourge on gaming generally. But in this game specifically, they've been handled in a fairly tame and sensible way, balancing legitimate business interests with player-friendly alternatives....
Not to mention, you are given experience boosts in game like candy. If your smart, you save them till you hit your 40s then use them up (I would recommend popping one before entering a FP. That is MAD exp) to hit max level. It just seems like another p2w rant from the OP because he wants everything in game without paying.

Or guess what, if you don't want to use your CC ration a month to make a ton of credits with the GTN, then use them to by exp boosts.

As for making loot boxes illegal, we will see if that happens, I hope it does. But that will only affect loot boxes with RNG, it has nothing to do with other items in cash shops.
Just Click It for Free Stuff I need the CC
http://www.swtor.com/r/Hj4n32

FlatTax's Avatar


FlatTax
06.23.2019 , 04:41 PM | #60
Quote: Originally Posted by Joonbeams View Post
Arbitrary is Arbitrary
Should anything be withheld from the F2P players? If so, why? Why not make all of the items in the CM free to everyone? Why even require a sub at all?

If you think these are facetious questions, they are not. The line between what should be included with a sub and what shouldn't be is entirely arbitrary--utterly, and completely, arbitrary. And arguments build on arbitrary foundations aren't compelling.

SWTOR Isn't P2W
You continue to suggest XP boosts and other items in this game are P2W. They aren't. I've addressed this strawman already:
  • Gear isn't required to "win"
  • Stat-based gear cannot be purchased with real cash; only awarded through play
  • Cosmetic items & consumables are available in a cash shop, but also resellable in game for no real cash outlay
  • Just by subscribing, one gets 500 (actually 600) CM coins/month
  • XP boosts can be purchased, but are also awarded regularly in-game
  • Earning in-game credits is fairly easy and non-grindy

Unintended Consequences
You're also not thinking through all the ramifications of your points. Suppose they did away with XP boosts from the CM, and the only way you could earn them was through playing. What would that do to the player, like me, who has very limited time to play and wishes to accelerate leveling as much as possible? Should I have to slog through everything slowly all over again every time I want try something new, even if I'm willing to pay for the option not to? Should only players with oodles of time be able to accelerate gameplay. Or should XP boosts be eliminated altogether then?

Additionally, if renaming guild ships, or guilds, or legacies/toons, was free and unlimited, what would that do to the game? Have you thought this through? It would be incredibly destabilizing both to active players and on the backend as well. Setting a price for this option makes it so that only those players who are willing to part with something for this option will get to do so -- and incredibly useful and smart gatekeeping mechanic (and remember, the initial name choice is free).

All CM Items Can Be Acquired In Game
As for the CM itself, every item purchased there can be resold for in-game currency without spending a dime extra of real cash. And there are a number of mechanics in game that make earning credits fairly easy (and for some like me, fun). I get almost every CM item I want from the GTN. If the devs didn't allow this, I would be buying these things of the CM.

Microtransactions in SWTOR are Reasonable
Your general issue is that you don't like microtransactions. Microtransactions are no doubt a scourge on gaming generally. But in this game specifically, they've been handled in a fairly tame and sensible way, balancing legitimate business interests with player-friendly alternatives....

Ok, there's a lot here, so let's recap:

You continue to suggest XP boosts and other items in this game are P2W. They aren't.
Let's look where we're at: The devs have announced new end-game gear (Amps) that provides peak performance. They've cynically called it 'optional' and 'not necessary,' while simultaneously downplaying the importance of a gearing system they're aggressively re-monetizing (Command/Renown drops).

There's little doubt double-boosted Renown drops will be the primary feeder for Amps, and we'll be left needing two simultaneous, compounding, monetized consumables to un-nerf our gearing, even after a subscription.

To head off criticism, the corporate communication strategy is pretty clear: highly-monetized end-game gear is framed as optional, not-necessary stuff from a secondary system. Nothing to see here; move along...

No doubt Amps and Tacticals will be available through other gameplay, but double-boosted Renown drops need only be highly efficient to create a tremendous pay-to-win problem.

XP boosts can be purchased, but are also awarded regularly in-game:
It doesn't matter if monetized gearing is largely circumventable (a big 'if' for 6.0); its mere existence is a moral problem, and evidence of the abuse we're being groomed for.

Watch the documentary Leaving Neverland; it's an amazing parable about excusing the crossing of bright lines. Microtransactions feed gearing. The bright line has been crossed. When the lights go out, we'll be getting FIFA'd.

Again: Whether it's Michael Jackson, or EA/BioWare, the moral obligation is for powerful people not to solicit inappropriate things from others.

Stat-based gear cannot be purchased with real cash; only awarded through play:
Oh boy. Microtransactions feed stat-based gearing. It's the bright line that should never be crossed. Suggesting that obscuring game mechanics make it ok is no different than any other claim that money laundering legitimizes an illicit practice. It doesn't.

All CM Items Can Be Acquired In Game:
Secondary grinds for anything cash-purchasable aren't game design. They're burdens to incentivize financial transactions, for items that shouldn't be withheld from a subscriber to begin with. No, the CC ration isn't meaningful.

Should I have to slog through everything slowly all over again every time I want try something new, even if I'm willing to pay for the option not to?
You're already paying handsomely. Subscribers should receive the cash-purchasable progression rate. If it's too fast for your playstyle, it could be nerfed for free, with something like the Gree gadget already in-game.

Should anything be withheld from the F2P players? If so, why? Why not make all of the items in the CM free to everyone? Why even require a sub at all?
There's nothing arbitrary about a subscription. Nothing is free, and I expect to pay for a quality game. The demo ('F2P') version is crippled to incentivize subscriptions, and that's fine. What I have a problem with is monetizing in-game advantages on top of a monetized 'premium' experience.

I have a smaller, but still real concern, with withholding amenities from subscribers, who pay $155.88+ a year, year over year. Needless to say, we're not getting two AAA titles worth of content a year.

Unintended Consequences:
No, there isn't any justification for pay-walling basic account management. It's as shameful as the sale of gambling products.