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Not so recent tank nerfs and current state of Jugg tanks in PvP

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Not so recent tank nerfs and current state of Jugg tanks in PvP

Lanzend's Avatar


Lanzend
09.25.2018 , 05:20 PM | #1
Strictly from a PvP perspective:

Before the tank damage nerfs all three tanks were somewhat on equal footing. Since said nerfs jugg tanks are indisputably on top.

Jugg tanks are 90% of what you find in solo ranked. Jugg tanks are the go-to for hardswap comps in 4s. PT or Jugg are your go-to for pressure/cleave.

Jugg tanks need to be nerfed or sins/PTs need to be buffed.
SHADE

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
09.25.2018 , 05:46 PM | #2
Being honest the few times I've done SR ive gone dps because whats the point tanking without a healer.

I agree that PTs got crapped on in the nerfs. Damage was all they brought to the table by comparison to the other 2. Currently all PT tanks bring to the table is aoe IE damage (and thus their continued prominence on pressure comps).

Shadows are weird because their damage dealt is tied into defending somehow if i remember correctly. Force speed with 60% DR on a short cooldown is an amazing tool, they have a pull and a push, in addition to stealth. shadow brings a lot of utility as well.

Kazz_Devlin's Avatar


Kazz_Devlin
09.25.2018 , 07:14 PM | #3
Well consider before they changed the shield metric they nerfed Jug tanks DPS because they were over performing. Then along comes the dev team and implements new shield metric allowing it to work on crit's and such which in effect increase's a tanks survival so now jug tanks live longer with no nerf to DPS. So we're right back where we started in that Jug tanks are over performing. Just mind boggling how the dev's can't grasp simple concepts. If your going to increase up-time then DPS NEEDS to go down!

Lanzend's Avatar


Lanzend
09.25.2018 , 08:04 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
Being honest the few times I've done SR ive gone dps because whats the point tanking without a healer.

I agree that PTs got crapped on in the nerfs. Damage was all they brought to the table by comparison to the other 2. Currently all PT tanks bring to the table is aoe IE damage (and thus their continued prominence on pressure comps).

Shadows are weird because their damage dealt is tied into defending somehow if i remember correctly. Force speed with 60% DR on a short cooldown is an amazing tool, they have a pull and a push, in addition to stealth. shadow brings a lot of utility as well.
Shadows tanks are great in regs where it's a bit of a mish-mash anyways. I don't have an issue there, usually top prot and better dmg than 90% of the dps on my team. In solos and 4s where you are constantly swapping guard/peeling against GOOD players. Sin tanks: A) die through guard dmg. B) your output is significantly reduced due to having a stack building rotation for your big hitter (Cascading Debris). Any GCDs spent doing something other than Slow Time, Project, DS/lacerate to build stacks for cascading debris you delay your main heavy hitter. That means every guard swap, every kb root, every pull, every spike delays CD/DV. Imagine if you had to build 3 stacks using Blade Storm/Force Scream and Reposte/Retaliate, and Saber Strike or Sweeping Slash had a 30% chance to reset the cd of BS/FS BEFORE you could use Guardian Slash/Crushing Blow. Also tie 4% of your dmg reduction to whether or not you can build those stacks and use GS/CB. Currently you just GS/CB every 10s regardless of what you need to do in between.

The part about defending to keep up dps is just our force regen mechanic. Parry/dodge/shield replenishes our force which isn't a problem since we always have guard on someone being hit.

PTs are still good/BiS for pressure comps pull+carb/oil slick and slow/trauma on flame sweep complement dot/cleave so well.
SHADE

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
09.25.2018 , 08:18 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Kazz_Devlin View Post
Well consider before they changed the shield metric they nerfed Jug tanks DPS because they were over performing. Then along comes the dev team and implements new shield metric allowing it to work on crit's and such which in effect increase's a tanks survival so now jug tanks live longer with no nerf to DPS. So we're right back where we started in that Jug tanks are over performing. Just mind boggling how the dev's can't grasp simple concepts. If your going to increase up-time then DPS NEEDS to go down!
*** are you even saying. At least OP has basic grammar skills beyond 2nd grade.

To OP: i don't ranked enough to really form an opinion on shadow in ranked in general (and find tanking SR to be rather pointless). From a regs/pve perspective, the worst tank is by far a PT, so if the different tanks are good at different parts of the game, it complicates balance.

Lanzend's Avatar


Lanzend
09.25.2018 , 08:23 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Kazz_Devlin View Post
Well consider before they changed the shield metric they nerfed Jug tanks DPS because they were over performing. Then along comes the dev team and implements new shield metric allowing it to work on crit's and such which in effect increase's a tanks survival so now jug tanks live longer with no nerf to DPS. So we're right back where we started in that Jug tanks are over performing. Just mind boggling how the dev's can't grasp simple concepts. If your going to increase up-time then DPS NEEDS to go down!
Shielding crits change never happened. Devs couldn't get it to work properly on pts so was excluded from 5.9.2.
SHADE

Coloneli's Avatar


Coloneli
09.25.2018 , 11:01 PM | #7
Iím 4s I hardly notice a difference between sin and jugg tanks for swaps. The double fear on tank and healer is nice if you can get it but this wonít normally happen against a very good team. Itís all just preference if you want to tank on jugg or sin imo.

SlimeyDoom's Avatar


SlimeyDoom
09.26.2018 , 12:58 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Coloneli View Post
Iím 4s I hardly notice a difference between sin and jugg tanks for swaps. The double fear on tank and healer is nice if you can get it but this wonít normally happen against a very good team. Itís all just preference if you want to tank on jugg or sin imo.
Pretty much this. It mostly comes down to your preference of what kind of cc (awe vs lift) you want, and sins are able to avoid being cc'ed much more effectively than any other tank. Juggs are not indisputably on top at all.

As for solo ranked, you really shouldn't be balancing around that game mode anyway. It's not a good way to judge class balance.

Lanzend's Avatar


Lanzend
09.26.2018 , 03:35 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by SlimeyDoom View Post
Pretty much this. It mostly comes down to your preference of what kind of cc (awe vs lift) you want, and sins are able to avoid being cc'ed much more effectively than any other tank. Juggs are not indisputably on top at all.

As for solo ranked, you really shouldn't be balancing around that game mode anyway. It's not a good way to judge class balance.
If you want lift u sacrifice 5s shroud. No way are you casting whirlwind in grp ranked. Pushback through guard alone makes it at least a 4s cast.

You have 4 mezz's in a meta hard swap comp (2 awes, lift & flash). If you shroud off a mezz it gets called and you get mezzed 4s later. 5s shroud (giving up lift btw) every 40s is hardly "able to avoid being cc'ed much more effectively than any other tank.". It helps for sure but remember sins are constantly rotating through their DCDs just to survive guard damage, which includes shroud.

Quote: Originally Posted by Coloneli View Post
Iím 4s I hardly notice a difference between sin and jugg tanks for swaps. The double fear on tank and healer is nice if you can get it but this wonít normally happen against a very good team. Itís all just preference if you want to tank on jugg or sin imo.
I've seen you on your scou/op and merc/mando. Not sure how much sin/jugg tanking you've done recently. Swapping isn't the problem. You can guard swap all you want, spike, stun, kb, pull etc. Nothing stops that. The issue for sins is how much it effects our dps to go outside of building stacks of harnessed shadows/darkness for CD/DV. These stacks come from project/shock and st/wither. CD on shock can be reset with melee attacks on a 30% rng chance. The long and short is a system built for and which works well in, PvE, where you can rotate through specific abilities, doesn't work that well with the normal interruptions and varying conditions in PvP. This wasn't a big issue pre tank nerfs as sin tank damage was too just too good. All tank damage was. With well played sin always out damaging well played juggs and neither jugg or sins could touch pt tanks cleave game. The damage sin tanks had vs juggs at that time was still decently balanced, given juggs are passively tankier in PvP and against most comps has better DCDs.

TLdr: In PvP, tank damage nerfs didn't effect Jugg's dps as much as it did the other two tanks, along with a buffed ED/FD that came with the same patch, put the class clearly ahead.
SHADE

Coloneli's Avatar


Coloneli
09.26.2018 , 04:11 AM | #10
I donít have significant experience myself this is more the words of my tank. Our record with a sin tank on rep side today stands at 86-3 in which Iíve not felt anything lacking especially in dps, with exceptions of few rounds where we have been pressured to death. Which is to be expected.