You have a device that allows you to control 1000 people to perform the same actions you do? Are you Tony Stark or Ultron?

 

way to have no sense of humor

Pretty sure I have said that the exploit needed to be fixed, a few times.

What I'm talking about is "once per day per legacy" items, especially for heroics, gating PVE options for conquest.

 

going back to my example

10 players with 10 alts each in guild A can not earn the same points doing these legacy restricted objectives that 100 players on a single toon doing the exact same objectives can earn.

 

Same 100 toons, but there's a penalty for the ones grouped by being part of a single legacy?

 

That is the bad part of the current system.

 

Ok, that was a misunderstanding then.

 

But I still think the ruleset is good as it is. Also the legacy restrictions.

Finally conquest is a little bit more sophisticated and you actually need to use your brain and have a plan to use that system most effectively. That is what I consider gaming, and not mindlessly doing the same stuff with each toon one by one and over and over.

And from my point of view, being a sportsman by heart, a ruleset is good anyway as long as every guild and person has to deal with the very same ruleset. Fairness is all what counts in a competition right?

Conquest should mainly be about the competition between guilds with the little beneifit of personal rewards, but not about easy peasy farming crafting mats with the same old same old dumb repetition of the very same objectives with each toon. That is as boring as it gets and I really feel I don't want to be bored while playing games but instead I want to have at least some challenge

I celebrate the changes the Bioware guys have implemtented with conquest since this went live because the old system was so f... brainless and dumb, it had nothing to do with what I consider gameplay, just degenerated grinding. Now it's much better and I can't believe some people actually ask for more stupid grinding or getting the old stupid grinding back. What is wrong with you guys? :-)

Forgot how to play games and what the deal is about playing games, like having a strategy and things like that as opposed to "switch brain off and mindlessly grind"?

 

And if you have a look at my history here I rarely celebrate what Bioware does with this game since this company has such a unique ability to make things worse, has almost no quality control/proper testing, professional workflows, almost no people who play this game on their own or even on an experienced level (so they know what is needed and how to implemtent it from a player's perspective), has no love for detail or any precision etc. etc. etc pp. I always wonder what a better team/company could make or could have made out of this game...Now they are reduced to a pitiful skeleton crew and probably can not do much anymore, but the mistakes were made in the past, and the result is the current skeleton situation.

BUT they did good with the conquest changes imho.

Edited August 13, 2018 by Khaleg

With the hard cap, there wouldn't be any need for the once per day per legacy restrictions.

But capping would just turn your argument around: If I put in 4h to get 30k points on my single char, it would get reduced to 15k as per cap, while putting in 4h on 2 alts would get me full 30k. So in fact it would turn around the whole thing: you are doomed if you don't have either many accounts or alts in guild, basically: larger guild wins. Nah, don't like that.

A bug is still present in 5.9.2 and has been reported many times by people within my guild.

 

Like really? lol

I didn't communicate much with my guild members last week since I was busy with real life stuff but I will interview them since they for sure found it out as well. :-)

Edited August 13, 2018 by Khaleg

But capping would just turn your argument around: If I put in 4h to get 30k points on my single char, it would get reduced to 15k as per cap, while putting in 4h on 2 alts would get me full 30k. So in fact it would turn around the whole thing: you are doomed if you don't have either many accounts or alts in guild, basically: larger guild wins. Nah, don't like that.

 

The larger guild wins (players vs. alts) is what we have now.

When there's a large gap between large/med/small guilds, that's inevitable (assuming same % of active players)

But capping would just turn your argument around: If I put in 4h to get 30k points on my single char, it would get reduced to 15k as per cap, while putting in 4h on 2 alts would get me full 30k. So in fact it would turn around the whole thing: you are doomed if you don't have either many accounts or alts in guild, basically: larger guild wins. Nah, don't like that.

 

You're correct.

 

It'd be a compromise I'd be ok with.

 

It plays into the "content matters, not conquest points" thought that at least one person is trying to push.

It helps the GF queues because the people with multiple alts are running the multiple alts and possibly queuing with them.

But it isn't my ideal solution, no.

 

But I still think the ruleset is good as it is. Also the legacy restrictions.

Finally conquest is a little bit more sophisticated and you actually need to use your brain and have a plan to use that system most effectively. That is what I consider gaming, and not mindlessly doing the same stuff with each toon one by one and over and over.

 

Come on. Claiming the restrictions add an element of sophistication to conquest is ridiculous. This is like saying eating a burrito with a fork adds sophistication versus eating it with your hands.

 

Every conquest goal has been done a billion times by the players, just because you now Make them a one time a day goal and make a list of other mundane conquest goals to go do doesn't make it an exercise of thought for the players. Rofl what an interesting notion though. Lol.

 

It's clear a vast majority of players want the legacy restrictions lifted and want to be able to grind heroics, rampages, or whatever else it is they like to grind. They find it fun. Whether you or I agree is irrelevant.

 

My biggest issue with the legacy restrictions is how you are forced to play a specific toon if you want the conquest points going to a specific guild. This game encouraged people to make alts from the start... Some people have 40-50 characters!

 

If you enjoy freedom playing whatever character you like doing whatever you want on them whenever you want, this new restrictive conquest system inhibits this kind of play style because you have to strategize what you do on what characters or you get punished by having conquest points going somewhere you might have preferred them not to go.

 

You shouldn't need a scheduler every day to map out where the conquest points go and on what characters into what guild! This is tedious and dumb.

 

If they just lift the legacy restrictions, people can freely play whatever they want and have easier control over where the conquest points go without having to worry about whether or not another toon already did a specific daily.

 

In a nutshell, the legacy restrictions add frustration and make the conquest system less fun for the majority of players that log in for conquest. It does not add some sort of competitive brain exercise though, as Khaleg implies. No clue how anyone that does conquest can even come to that ridiculous conclusion.

 

Maybe it's a matter of data space being used, and the changes were made just to simplify the amount of conquest points that have to be calculated and saved? I honestly have no idea what else it could be but some technical reason that has nothing to do with gameplay.

 

I mean when a huge swathe of players on a game vehemently oppose changes on a game, usually the game acknowledges the unhappiness of the players and try to make the players happy with changes that they agree makes the game more fun.

 

Games are supposed to be fun, and when a change is made claimed by 90% or more as unneeded or even as detrimental to the game making it less fun, then I'd think the devs would be more apt to trying to make it fun again. They seem unwilling to appease the majority concerning conquest and as a long time gamer I find this puzzling.

Some people have 40-50 characters!

 

77 as of this morning on one account. I didn't bother to count the toons on the other 3 accounts.

 

Edit: Okay, I counted. Sum total for the other 3 accounts combined is 38, so 115 altogether.

Edited August 13, 2018 by xordevoreaux

way to have no sense of humor

Depends on your type of humor...

The larger guild wins (players vs. alts) is what we have now.

When there's a large gap between large/med/small guilds, that's inevitable (assuming same % of active players)

You refuse to understand the gap was much larger pre-5.8.

It's clear a vast majority of players want the legacy restrictions lifted and want to be able to grind heroics, rampages, or whatever else it is they like to grind. They find it fun. Whether you or I agree is irrelevant.

That isnt correct. People CAN do those activities an infinite amount of times. These activities are present even in the absence of conquest entirely. I ran 20 heroics yesterday, and didnt have any issues with legacy restricting me.

 

By attaching conquest to their argument, the truth is people want an "easy and steady" way to accumulate a massive amount of points. So the argument isnt about restriction of activities in conquest, its actually about limitation of point accumulation (by whatever means necessary). The argument is disguised through limitation of the activities, but the limitation isnt truly limiting these activities.

 

So what happens when points accumulation potential is unlimited? It benefits a small population that can actually make use of it, and creates an imbalanced point system where 1 person with a lot of alts and playtime can completely alter the competition that is supposed to give thousands of people a relatively equal chance to make an impact.

 

A smart company is able to see past these fake arguments, and understand the economic aspect of changes that allow too much point accumulation by individual players. The current system, while not perfect, prevents this abuse.

 

Go play your content as often as you please. BW will reward you the first time, per day, until tomorrow. Many successful games operate with this premise. Many successful competitions off a similar premise with contest entries. This isnt a new concept, and has been shown time and time again to be a very fun, very effective and inclusive system.

That isnt correct. People CAN do those activities an infinite amount of times. These activities are present even in the absence of conquest entirely. I ran 20 heroics yesterday, and didnt have any issues with legacy restricting me.

 

Do you base your gameplay around conquest? Many players do, and by not gaining points on a character, they simply feel no desire to play it. Your example is subjective, and you should realize your experience is different than others depending on what your/their priorities are in the game.

 

 

By attaching conquest to their argument, the truth is people want an "easy and steady" way to accumulate a massive amount of points. So the argument isnt about restriction of activities in conquest, its actually about limitation of point accumulation (by whatever means necessary). The argument is disguised through limitation of the activities, but the limitation isnt truly limiting these activities.

 

Sure, some players want to accumulate points across their army of alts. But this is not the only reason some people want the legacy restrictions lifted. What about the guy that plays intermittently, yet has toons in multiple guilds? What if he wants to contribute to all of those guilds equally, without having to try to work within a confined schedule that allocates points only to the first toon that completes the goal that is legacy restricted?

 

 

So what happens when points accumulation potential is unlimited? It benefits a small population that can actually make use of it, and creates an imbalanced point system where 1 person with a lot of alts and playtime can completely alter the competition that is supposed to give thousands of people a relatively equal chance to make an impact.

 

To try to base a game contest so it treats "casuals" and "hardcores" equally is impossible. No matter what, on a MMO there are players who invest much of their life to the game. You can't try to equalize their ingame production by restricting the games goals so a casual can equally compete. At least I have never seen this done on a MMO.

 

Regardless, this point is actually pointless, because guess what? The hardcore zerg guilds STILL dominate and "win" in conquest. The same guy in one of the guilds I am in plays constantly and he focuses solely on conquest even now, with the legacy restrictions. He also only plays one toon in the guild, and I will assume he has no other characters active in other conquest guilds.

 

I guess if you want to reward people that strictly play one toon then this is a good model.

 

 

A smart company is able to see past these fake arguments, and understand the economic aspect of changes that allow too much point accumulation by individual players. The current system, while not perfect, prevents this abuse.

 

The "arguments" people are providing are proof the majority hate the legacy restrictions. This is real, whether or not you want to believe it. If it's a matter of the system not being able to manage the vast accumulation of points that lifting the legacy restrictions would create, they can always lower the point amounts gained. That's easy to do.

 

As for "a smart company" is concerned, well that's another debate. I like swtor, and accept it for it's flaws as well as recognize it for it;'s great attributes however it's quite clear major errors were made over the past 5 years that "a smart company" would not have made. Many would even argue the latest conquest changes are such errors. Subs and feedback would indicate that btw. Seems to me the feedback is overwhelmingly in favor of lifting the legacy restrictions.

 

P.S. Using a cliched word like "fake" is fake btw.

 

 

Go play your content as often as you please. BW will reward you the first time, per day, until tomorrow. Many successful games operate with this premise. Many successful competitions off a similar premise with contest entries. This isnt a new concept, and has been shown time and time again to be a very fun, very effective and inclusive system.

 

I personally would never grind heroics or rampages, or any other activity besides PVP, because that's what I do. I focus on PVP. It's just a coincidence my activity is one that can be a grind for conquest.

 

You can't make a blanket statement like "many other successful competitions use this system" and assume that provides your argument with proof it works here... The complaints about the conquest changes since 5.0 prove people that focus on conquest enjoyed the grinding and accumulation of points across their toons and hate the legacy restrictions.

 

IMO a smart company would recognize what the people enjoy and love, and do it even if it seems to go counter to what the company thinks is best for the players.

 

 

 

Story Time for OJ:

 

Coca Cola reinvented Coke in the 80s. Remember that? After months of commercials telling the people it tasted better, was better than the old Coke, guess what? The feedback from the people was the New Coke sucked. No amount of explanation or positive reinforcement could change the minds of the consumers... And, guess what? Coke changed back to their old formula, and eventually ditched New Coke. This is what a "smart company" does.

You refuse to understand the gap was much larger pre-5.8.

 

I understand that guilds had 10x the number of points.

Because you could earn more points per toon w/o this legacy restriction rules.

However, the PERCENTAGE between spot 1 and spot 10 seem pretty similar in either system.

 

If you're saying 90 million points difference is "scarier" than 9 million points difference....sure....

 

That's like saying a distance of 1000 centimeters is scarier than a distance of 10 meters.

Do you base your gameplay around conquest? Many players do, and by not gaining points on a character, they simply feel no desire to play it. Your example is subjective, and you should realize your experience is different than others depending on what your/their priorities are in the game.

If you read other posts ive made, you would realize the idea of experiences differing for each person is central to the core of my thoughts, posts and ideas.

 

That said, if they have no incentive to play, there are other ways for BW to create incentive without destroying balance in conquest. If people wont run FPs unless conquest is included, thats a problem that the conquest system (regardless if open or restricted) actually creates. That means inherent rewards for the FP arent good enough and need to be re-evaluated to provide more incentive at all times (regardless of whether its part of conquest or not). It does not mean conquest NEEDS to be re-evaluated, though.

 

Sure, some players want to accumulate points across their army of alts. But this is not the only reason some people want the legacy restrictions lifted. What about the guy that plays intermittently, yet has toons in multiple guilds? What if he wants to contribute to all of those guilds equally, without having to try to work within a confined schedule that allocates points only to the first toon that completes the goal that is legacy restricted?

He is able to, to a point. However, for every alt BW allows contributions from, the competition can be skewed more and more by individuals.

 

To try to base a game contest so it treats "casuals" and "hardcores" equally is impossible. No matter what, on a MMO there are players who invest much of their life to the game. You can't try to equalize their ingame production by restricting the games goals so a casual can equally compete. At least I have never seen this done on a MMO.

Exactly why, i believe, they allow some alts to complete it instead of none. It caters fairly to people with and without alts, without giving anyone too much power or restricting too much.

 

The "arguments" people are providing are proof the majority hate the legacy restrictions. This is real, whether or not you want to believe it. If it's a matter of the system not being able to manage the vast accumulation of points that lifting the legacy restrictions would create, they can always lower the point amounts gained. That's easy to do.

The arguments being made illustrate players dont understand why the restrictions are in place. Perhaps clarification from BW is needed more than changes.

 

IMO a smart company would recognize what the people enjoy and love, and do it even if it seems to go counter to what the company thinks is best for the players.

You are making a lot of assumptions here. 1. That players understand. 2 that players ideas are fair and based on the best interest of the game, and not themselves individually. I could continue...

 

Many players would also love to have instant BIS gear, too. By your logic, BW should recognize that and change it too, right?

Edited August 13, 2018 by olagatonjedi

I understand that guilds had 10x the number of points.

Because you could earn more points per toon w/o this legacy restriction rules.

However, the PERCENTAGE between spot 1 and spot 10 seem pretty similar in either system.

 

If you're saying 90 million points difference is "scarier" than 9 million points difference....sure....

 

That's like saying a distance of 1000 centimeters is scarier than a distance of 10 meters.

Yet again, im not talking about guild 1 vs 2 specifically, im talking about guild 1 vs ALL guilds. The gap is much mich smaller for ALL involved, not just the high playtime guilds.

 

Many players would also love to have instant BIS gear, too. By your logic, BW should recognize that and change it too, right?

 

 

It's easier than ever to get BIS gear now, even on alts.

And guess what?

The same rules apply for your main that apply for your alts.

Do the work on the toon of your choice, get the points, and you can do the SAME work on an alt, on the same day, and earn the SAME amount of points.

No legacy restrictions there.

 

It isn't instant, but you can do several at a time if you want.

We want that chance back for conquest is what we're saying.

Story Time for OJ:

 

Coca Cola reinvented Coke in the 80s. Remember that? After months of commercials telling the people it tasted better, was better than the old Coke, guess what? The feedback from the people was the New Coke sucked. No amount of explanation or positive reinforcement could change the minds of the consumers... And, guess what? Coke changed back to their old formula, and eventually ditched New Coke. This is what a "smart company" does.

Poor analogy, but ill respond.

 

Coke had a tried and true drink that they chose to change.

 

Pre-5.8 conquest was popular, but it BW has stated that it had functionality that was not intended, and needed a change.

 

Coke had the ability to go back to the tried and true methid without consequence.

 

BW doesnt have that luxury, because going back to that old system (or the unrestricted remnants) will once again reintroduce the unintended functionality.

 

Like i said, poor analogy.

It's easier than ever to get BIS gear now, even on alts.

And guess what?

The same rules apply for your main that apply for your alts.

Do the work on the toon of your choice, get the points, and you can do the SAME work on an alt, on the same day, and earn the SAME amount of points.

No legacy restrictions there.

 

It isn't instant, but you can do several at a time if you want.

We want that chance back for conquest is what we're saying.

Did they get the gear instantly? Methinks you missed the point.

Ok there's a couple of people in this thread who are going to feed off each other until Judgment Day, resolve absolutely nothing, and convince no one of anything, especially each other.

 

Have at each other, boys, you apparently have more fun sparring in your own self-styled debating arena then playing the game, so I won't even be posting in my own thread any more because a troll killed it a few pages ago and someone else gets energy by latching onto his every post.

 

So.

Enjoy.

 

I'm out.

Edited August 13, 2018 by xordevoreaux

Ok there's a couple of people in this thread who are going to feed off each other until Judgment Day, resolve absolutely nothing, and convince no one of anything, especially each other.

 

Have at each other, boys, you apparently have more fun sparring in your own self-styled debating arena then playing the game, so I won't even be posting in my own thread any more because a troll killed it a few pages ago and someone else gets energy by latching onto his every post.

 

So.

Enjoy.

 

I'm out.

 

I find these kinds of comments a bit holier-than-thou tbh, but w/e. Writing nothing and not engaging "the troll" will get you nothing for sure, whereas engaging anyone and everyone could garner attention to the topic being discussed and lead to actual changes.

 

One side may never convince the other side, true. However, the discussion might reach others who can make actual changes for the betterment of the game so I don't view such discussions as a waste of time just because posters don't come to an absolute agreement.

 

Even I have considered OJ a "troll" but honestly calling someone such a thing when they disagree is a cop out imo. I don't even think he is a troll, I think he takes a stance that happens to be the exact stance someone very high up in the studio takes so engaging him could be good to present an opposing viewpoint.

 

Besides, sometimes engaging conversation with someone that has an opposite point of view leads to enlightenment.

I find these kinds of comments a bit holier-than-thou tbh, but w/e. Writing nothing and not engaging "the troll" will get you nothing for sure, whereas engaging anyone and everyone could garner attention to the topic being discussed and lead to actual changes.

 

One side may never convince the other side, true. However, the discussion might reach others who can make actual changes for the betterment of the game so I don't view such discussions as a waste of time just because posters don't come to an absolute agreement.

 

Even I have considered OJ a "troll" but honestly calling someone such a thing when they disagree is a cop out imo. I don't even think he is a troll, I think he takes a stance that happens to be the exact stance someone very high up in the studio takes so engaging him could be good to present an opposing viewpoint.

 

Besides, sometimes engaging conversation with someone that has an opposite point of view leads to enlightenment.

I appreciate the attempt to at least understand that there isnt a single point of view on every topic of conversation.

 

I honestly dont believe that a large portion of people look beyond their own affect when requesting changes to the game. Knowledge beyond the top layer offers insight as to decisions being made by the devs. Unfortunately, some people dont care and arent willing to look beyind their own biased reasons, but i refuse to believe everyone operates like that. Some players truly do have the games best interest in mind, and can come to an intelligent stance using feedback from both extremes, and everything in between, even when it doesnt necessarily affect them. I dont have to reply to every one that replies to me, but its more opportunity to illustrate my argument in a different manner that someone may finally understand. Afterall, we all learn and see things in different ways - i.e. verbal vs picture vs logically, etc.

Edited August 13, 2018 by olagatonjedi

The bottom line is that the situation pre 5.9.2 was an exploit, and deserved to be fixed. It is probably safe to say it’s working as intended now. I think it’s fair to assume that the developers don’t intend for the mass killing of random mobs to be particularly worthwhile in terms of contributing to conquest on a regular basis. It’s a worthwhile debate as to whether that developer intent should change, but the fact remains that the exploit needed to be fixed.

The bottom line is that the situation pre 5.9.2 was an exploit, and deserved to be fixed. It is probably safe to say it’s working as intended now. I think it’s fair to assume that the developers don’t intend for the mass killing of random mobs to be particularly worthwhile in terms of contributing to conquest on a regular basis. It’s a worthwhile debate as to whether that developer intent should change, but the fact remains that the exploit needed to be fixed.

 

even fixed rampages are still the single biggest, repeatable method of gaining conquest. this week it was ~9000/day just for killing 300 random mobs on tatt/nar.

 

next biggest are unrepeatables - 7500 for the large one offs.

 

we can sit here debating how feasible alts should be all day; personally I feel my opinion is known and has not changed, but do not feel like re-engaging all that much. What am I accomplishing? They've obviously made up their minds to slowly eat away at anything I find slightly fun in this game...

Edited August 14, 2018 by KendraP

we can sit here debating how feasible alts should be all day; personally I feel my opinion is known and has not changed, but do not feel like re-engaging all that much. What am I accomplishing? They've obviously made up their minds to slowly eat away at anything I find slightly fun in this game...

Oftentimes, FUN is what you make it. Many people believe the game is currently at its highest in fun.