Yup, seems like applying the hinder to carrier could be a bit too much and likely other change will be more appropriate and will work better.

I would still like to test it in PTS tho, could be lot of fun would prolly get old quick tho

Thanks for reading the discussion and considering the changes ! It’s great.

Hey folks,

 

Quick update. We have really been enjoying the discussion around these changes, especially hinder. The team is looking at an option where we don't introduce hinder at all and make a different set of changes to achieve our goals.

 

Once they have those finalized I will swing back in the thread with their plans to get your thoughts. I should have them tomorrow or Friday. Thanks everyone!

 

-eric

Thank you very much for this.

I hope you can come up with a good alternative!

Hey folks,

 

Quick update. We have really been enjoying the discussion around these changes, especially hinder. The team is looking at an option where we don't introduce hinder at all and make a different set of changes to achieve our goals.

 

Once they have those finalized I will swing back in the thread with their plans to get your thoughts. I should have them tomorrow or Friday. Thanks everyone!

 

-eric

This would be fantastic news indeed. Ty for the update.

Hey folks,

 

Quick update. We have really been enjoying the discussion around these changes, especially hinder. The team is looking at an option where we don't introduce hinder at all and make a different set of changes to achieve our goals.

 

Once they have those finalized I will swing back in the thread with their plans to get your thoughts. I should have them tomorrow or Friday. Thanks everyone!

 

-eric

The problem with Huttball needs to be thought about differently than whatever thought process led to Hinder.

The central problem with the Hinder idea will also be a problem with whatever the next solution is unless the design team starts thinking about the problem differently. Hinder's effect would have been to prevent knowledgeable players from dominating matches. But that's not REALLY the problem with huttball. Instead of thinking about how to nerf creative and thoughtful players, the design team needs to think about how buff participation in the objectives-based gameplay by everyone else. Don't make Huttball less fun for good players without addressing the things, the separate and distinct things, that make it less fun for average players. Instead, make a list of all the reasons that average players dislike huttball, the reasons why they choose not to participate, either by leaving matches or by mindlessly deathmatching at mid or in the pits, and invent solutions to THOSE problems.

Huttball is the most divisive map in PvP among PvP players, and it is ESPECIALLY hated by PvP tourists who only PvP on a lark or when some PvE or cosmetic carrot is dangled on a stick for them. Why? The easy answer is to say "because huttball is different," but that would be an insufficiently self-critical analysis by the development team. All PvP was "different" at some point, and some things worked and evolved and some things didn't work and died.

Huttball is a great ruleset concept, and it shouldn't die. Your goal should be to invent a way for players to love it or hate it at least at same the rate they love or hate the other PvP maps, at a minimum. This CAN be done. Focus your design thinking on a specific group of players. Not the good players, and not the hopeless players. Rather, there's a population, not small, of PvPers who participate in objectives-based play in every other PvP map, but who throw their hands up and quit, either literally or just mentally, in a huttball map and don't do any objectives-based play. Find a way to engage THOSE players.

Fixing huttball cannot be done by focusing on the extreme ends of the bell curve, by nerfing the joy out of playing it for those of us who enjoy it at one extreme, or by wasting time at the other extreme trying to solve the problem of hopeless PvPers who are hopeless in every PvP context. Engage those center-of-the-bell-curve players by making it easier or more fun for them.

Hinder was a bad idea because it would fundamentally make the game less fun. If the solution that comes after Hinder is inspired by the same mindset that birthed Hinder, it will also not be the right solution.

Hey folks,

 

Quick update. We have really been enjoying the discussion around these changes, especially hinder. The team is looking at an option where we don't introduce hinder at all and make a different set of changes to achieve our goals.

 

Once they have those finalized I will swing back in the thread with their plans to get your thoughts. I should have them tomorrow or Friday. Thanks everyone!

 

-eric

Here's a simple solution, how about making it so we can only hold the ball for a max of 30 seconds (currently it's 2 minutes(?) before we explode and die)? This might be a good way to encourage some teamplay and participation.

Hey folks,

 

Quick update. We have really been enjoying the discussion around these changes, especially hinder. The team is looking at an option where we don't introduce hinder at all and make a different set of changes to achieve our goals.

 

Once they have those finalized I will swing back in the thread with their plans to get your thoughts. I should have them tomorrow or Friday. Thanks everyone!

 

-eric

I've got an idea:

You could add special ball carrier buffs to "pass ball" toolbar, such as "reduce movement speed to 30%, but removes all movement buffs and makes you immune to all physics (KB, pulls, slows, roots) while this buff is active." While this buff is active, the ball carrier glows yellow.

Another buff could be: ball carrier's defensive cooldown timers are reduced by 50%, but ball carrier takes 25% more damage from all attacks. While this buff is active he glows red.

I'm sure we could think of more or better ball-carrier buffs that could be added to the "pass ball" toolbar.

Here's a simple solution, how about making it so we can only hold the ball for a max of 30 seconds (currently it's 2 minutes(?) before we explode and die)? This might be a good way to encourage some teamplay and participation.

That's a nice idea. It should have a visible debuff and maybe some extra warning when 10s left.

Hey folks,

 

Quick update. We have really been enjoying the discussion around these changes, especially hinder. The team is looking at an option where we don't introduce hinder at all and make a different set of changes to achieve our goals.

 

Once they have those finalized I will swing back in the thread with their plans to get your thoughts. I should have them tomorrow or Friday. Thanks everyone!

 

-eric

thank you most people have already given feedback on alternatives but one thing I will say, IMO I do think you should kind of keep hinder But it only applies to sage pull or Translocate, so sage can't just pull the player and all the handler has to do is run, he has the ball the player has to pass, I think this will encourage to actually pass it more imo.

Here's a simple solution, how about making it so we can only hold the ball for a max of 30 seconds (currently it's 2 minutes(?) before we explode and die)? This might be a good way to encourage some teamplay and participation.

It doesn't address the near unstoppable fast cap classes: ops/jugs and to some extent sorcs

The changes need to focus more on encouraging and rewarding the desired outcome

I'd suggest the number of passes being reflected in the points awarded for the goal

Aww, I just read your first post about this and loved hinder was being introduced. Which cry babies ruined it?

Because it is a stupid idea and would ruin the one unique game mode in this game?

Because it is a stupid idea and would ruin the one unique game mode in this game?

Which spec do you mainly queue regs with and with how many friends do you queue usually? I have my guess...

Because it is a stupid idea and would ruin the one unique game mode in this game?

Right, because seeing an Operative/Scoundrel double-roll into the endzone with no ability to stop that is so much fun. Personally, I think the "Hinder" mechanic would have made Huttball much more fun and interesting. But we'll see what their alternative is for addressing the lack of counter play in HB/QB.

Which spec do you mainly queue regs with and with how many friends do you queue usually? I have my guess...

I play Jugg/sin/PT/Mara in regs and usually play with 1 or 2 people.

I have been playing this game since launch, and Huttball has been the best part of pvp in this game for me. Ranked or regs, it doesn't matter. Why punish players for knowing how to use their abilities to win the game, and exploiting those who do not? With hinder, the game will become slow and monotonous...slowly running through fire pits and acid, hoping not to be stunlocked.

Oh boy, but if i'm in a premade and use my movement abilities, that is grounds for a complete overhaul of the map!

Right, because seeing an Operative/Scoundrel double-roll into the endzone with no ability to stop that is so much fun. Personally, I think the "Hinder" mechanic would have made Huttball much more fun and interesting. But we'll see what their alternative is for addressing the lack of counter play in HB/QB.

There is a way, it's called timing your stuns....unless of course he de syncs through the ground, which is an annoying problem BW needs to address.

He only has two rolls now, stun him and kill, force push into fire, pull into fire, knockback, etc, etc. It is not hard.

...We have really been enjoying the discussion around these changes, especially hinder. The team is looking at an option where we don't introduce hinder at all and make a different set of changes to achieve our goals...

Hopefully you don't discount a hinder type fix completely, as I feel a reigning in the non-targeted mobility moves would really help, especially with other options as discussed. Look forward to your revised thoughts!

I may be the only that feels this way out of the group but....

Eric, I'd just like to caution design considerations wherein combat is further de-incentivized. I realize that objectives are apart of WZs but that doesn't mean it should be the only consideration.

There should be combat awards for point gains for combat actions that serve objective attempts. Introducing more objective mechanics is fine and probably what a lot of players would like to see and that's understandable. I just think we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that there are many players who enjoy the combat elements more than objective elements. They are both important as often one facilitates the other.

I also feel that what some other players see is just "deathmatching" unless they are watching what's causing the fighting or what it's purpose is due to it would be impossible to make an accurate assessment as such.

It's a Warzone, and in war people tend to try and kill each other. Even in real war objectives play their parts on the acquisition of strategic gains or environmental necessities in the further prosecution of War aims but they are very often coupled with military might in order to acquire and sustain strategic gains.

Not everyone's the same and people have different views on things so it's important to remember WZs should cater to different appetites and preferences.

Additionally sometimes people are intimidated by some of the objectives as they don't want to look "inept" if they fail, and thus are cautious about the potential for toxic rebuffs by other players so they try to avoid being in that position if they don't have to be.

Objectives and combat should go hand in hand. There's room for both and there should be both. For myself, I'm not sure if I would be considered a death-matcher in the traditional sense, I certainly emphasize the combat aspects, but I try to couple them with assisting the objectives by combat applications and leave objectives to those who are more suited to one type of objective over another, like we are seeing in this string about hinder and which classes would be the most suitable ball carriers. There are differences in the classes that make some better than others at certain activities.

There will always be need for combat applications that facilitate strategic goals, but when I see certain posters asking for a greater emphasis on the objective side of things and that changes should be made to prevent "deathmatching" that's a slippery slope. I don't think that most people are 'anti-combat' in objective PVP, I think that combat is a large part of the enjoyment some pvpers seek, I know it is for me. Just for consideration.

Takes all kinds.

It doesn't address the near unstoppable fast cap classes: ops/jugs and to some extent sorcs

 

The changes need to focus more on encouraging and rewarding the desired outcome

 

I'd suggest the number of passes being reflected in the points awarded for the goal

Fast and Jugg in the same sentence. There's something you don't see very often....

I play Jugg/sin/PT/Mara in regs and usually play with 1 or 2 people.

 

I have been playing this game since launch, and Huttball has been the best part of pvp in this game for me. Ranked or regs, it doesn't matter. Why punish players for knowing how to use their abilities to win the game, and exploiting those who do not? With hinder, the game will become slow and monotonous...slowly running through fire pits and acid, hoping not to be stunlocked.

 

Oh boy, but if i'm in a premade and use my movement abilities, that is grounds for a complete overhaul of the map!

With hinder, the game will become slow and monotonous??

So don't always hog the ball! Pass it, use movement abilities as much as you wish, position better and have it passed back to you. Hinder only practically hinders people who attempt to goal solo, which is unfair in it's current form because operatives can do it much better than mercenaries can. Go ahead and tell me, how DO you stop a premade of 2 operatives once one of them already has the ball? He can break stuns once, break roots twice and has crazy mobility. I was never stopped with succesfully when using this tactic versus non-premades and I play totally solo. This imparity in how my mere existence in the team affects the whole game simply because of the spec I play can't last.

There is a way, it's called timing your stuns....unless of course he de syncs through the ground, which is an annoying problem BW needs to address.

 

He only has two rolls now, stun him and kill, force push into fire, pull into fire, knockback, etc, etc. It is not hard.

Fact, my operative never died in fire while carrying the ball despite getting firepulled and firepushed sometimes. Am I god? Nope, I simply use holotraverse with good reflexes when I am in the situation, or roll out of there. It takes far more skill and long cooldowned abilities to stop an operative once it has the ball, than the skill required and short cooldowns the operative needs to goal the ball.

It doesn't need to be 100% unstoppable to be unfair. 80% is quite too much already...

Right, because seeing an Operative/Scoundrel double-roll into the endzone with no ability to stop that is so much fun. Personally, I think the "Hinder" mechanic would have made Huttball much more fun and interesting. But we'll see what their alternative is for addressing the lack of counter play in HB/QB.

Ideally they would fix de-sync, but I understand that might not be possible. But it's not unstoppable at all. An operative can't roll straight from ball spawn to the end line instantly. They're either being passed the ball or they have to run it further. So either play defensively to be able to intercept the pass or un-stealth them ahead of time (there's really not that many places they can be, and they have no knockback). Or kill them, slow them, stun them, etc. before they get the ball too far from spawn.

But the easiest solution is just control mid better. Don't let them get the ball in the first place. I actually think any changes should be focused on mid and how the ball is picked up, because the spam clicking when it's about to spawn is kind of silly to me and is something that has been abused with macros before. Maybe add a cast time to it that gets reduced the more teammates are in an area around it, or just a cast time that gets progressively shorter the longer it goes not being picked up, or adding an AoE around it that quickly does more damage the longer you're in it.

Hey folks,

 

Quick update. We have really been enjoying the discussion around these changes, especially hinder. The team is looking at an option where we don't introduce hinder at all and make a different set of changes to achieve our goals.

 

Once they have those finalized I will swing back in the thread with their plans to get your thoughts. I should have them tomorrow or Friday. Thanks everyone!

 

-eric

Any chance you would consider this:

hinder is gone while stunned or immobilized (or lets say when getting affected by abilities which increase resolve, because the immobilise which comes after being leapt at is too short for this to be fair) and for 3 seconds after the stun, immobilize ends (by being broken, cleansed or simply ending). This will make people think twice before they firestun someone in the presence of his friendly sorc and still leaves room for stupid leap targets to get punished if the carrier was just stunned, and the fear of a stun suddenly happening will force people to never be viable leap targets at all

Or this:

Huttball is my favourite match type by far, but there are definitely some classes that over-perform, especially in PUG matches where there's very little coordinated opposition. As such some changes to the format are welcome, and is something I've thought about and discussed before.

 

My main wishes are below, and I'm thinking all 4 work together but testing would be required, but I like some of Snave's suggestions, too.

 

 

1. Apply a stacking healing debuff to the carrier, as suggested elsewhere. Thought should be given to the duration it remains for after the ball is passed to prevent , for example, passing from tank to healer and back to tank to clear said debuff. Depending on the duration it stays for, it should possibly reset when the ball does.
    
    
   
2. Apply a modified 'hinder' effect that only applies to non-targeted mobility actions; roll, dash, sprint, etc. This does give an advantage to some classes, but I feel the targeted nature of leap, intercede, pull, etc requires bad positioning of the enemy team - which should be punished - or good positioning/teamwork from your team - which should be rewarded.
    
    
   
3. Use the temporary ability bar to grant the ball carrier a dash type ability. Yes I'm suggesting taking these away from classes, just to give them back! However this ability would be standardised across classes and balanced for Huttball specifically; root break, CC immunity, short duration (~2s), no damage mitigation, at least a 30s CD (I'm thinking 45-60s, but not sure without testing). This should allow people to make some headway, and skip some inactive hazards. Active hazards, however...
    
    
   
4. Increase damage or other effects of the hazards. They've lost their bite over the years as classes have gained mobility and/or damage mitigation. Make them actually hazardous again.
   

 

I think these work together to encourage more teamwork without bogging down progression too much.

 

As for the listed changes, the only one that concerns me is stun blocking a pass. Can see this could lead to stalemates, and also makes it easy for stealth classes to shadow someone expected to receive a pass (on the line, up high, etc) and just stun them to easily intercept.

There are pretty realistic ideas in these forums. As a guy who plays operatives and assassins the most I can tell they have it too easy in huttball, even when queueing solo.

Considering that the premade limitation still allows 4 operatives in a premade, making no changes will make huttballs the most prone to imbalance, because roles have far less importance there than mobility, and mobility is not balanced in the matchmaking. If the goal of this patch is to limit the possibility of imbalance in all PVP, then either you design a separate matchmaking for huttball or you DO introduce some form of hindrance to make mobility less game-deciding factor.

Fact, my operative never died in fire while carrying the ball despite getting firepulled and firepushed sometimes. Am I god? Nope, I simply use holotraverse with good reflexes when I am in the situation, or roll out of there. It takes far more skill and long cooldowned abilities to stop an operative once it has the ball, than the skill required and short cooldowns the operative needs to goal the ball.

 

It doesn't need to be 100% unstoppable to be unfair. 80% is quite too much already...

Lol.

Ok, so you are uniquely using the abilities that are given to you to escape and score. Good on you and that's exactly what makes it fun and sometimes challenging. However, it is not hard to kill an operative or stop an operative unless there is 3 healers and a tank guarding them. The other matchmaking changes will hopefully dispel that issue.

Fast and Jugg in the same sentence. There's something you don't see very often....

mad dash, leap with push/pull immunity every 13s, intercede every 13s, 2 speed increase one with cleanse, one with slow immunity

l2p