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Planned Warzone Changes Part 2

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Planned Warzone Changes Part 2
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yellow_'s Avatar


yellow_
06.05.2018 , 02:53 PM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by Metthew View Post
I know - back of the hand calculation was for how long non-offhealing toons would have for chasing an operative who would run away. It may just be alright though - a lot of classes have enough mobility and for a running away operative a well-timed hardstun or two should do the trick to burst them. I'm just still a bit worried about an operative 1v4'ing people when he/she leverages de-sync.

edit: and even as it is, I think the proposed change is better than how it is now and I fully support it.
I am 100% sure this will be a non concern.

The reason operative acid cancer is so effective right now is how absurdly fast acid kills you. They need to buy very little time to let acid do 99% of the work. So little that double rolling towards some LOS, having all their dcds up if anyone actually manages to catch them, and clicking off their endurance buff can do the trick.

New acid will need the 10 seconds old acid *kills you in* just to *reach the dps of old acid*. You will have plenty of time to chase them and dump hard stuns and nets into them now. Which will make any 1vX extraordinarily difficult to win.

Operative acid trolls like to say that anyone losing to the tactic "deserves" to lose. This is idiotic. But starting with this new patch it will actually be true (except in 1v1s, which operatives win anyways).

Pallais's Avatar


Pallais
06.05.2018 , 02:56 PM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
[*]Carrying the Huttball now applies Hinder to the character. Hinder prevents the use of high mobility actions such as Force Charge, Force Speed, Scamper, and more.
[*]Due to the Hinder changes above players holding the Huttball will now move at 80% movement speed (up from 67%)
-eric
Does Hinder apply to Sage/Sorc Pulls, too? If it doesn't then a Sage/Sorc + Tank becomes the de facto ball running team (given that Hinder basically says only have a tank run the Huttball). Also, would the Huttball matchmaking ensure a tank on both teams? The side without a tank would be at a disadvantage.

Snave's suggested healing debuff would be a better answer to getting more passing of the Huttball. You would only want to hold on to it for so long, dps would still do well as Huttball carriers, and the matchmaking wouldn't need to be as fussy about tanks/healers.
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micnevv's Avatar


micnevv
06.05.2018 , 02:57 PM | #33
Completely disabling high mobility abilities is the wrong way to go. Unless you are a tank or a defence heavy spec you'll be mostly useless when carrying the ball.

---------------------

What they need to do is :

A - Temporarily increase the GCD when movement abilities are used

B - Increase the cooldowns of movement abilities.

C - Add a diminishing returns on healing received the longer you hold the ball to incentivise passing.

My suggested changes will still allow classes to use their iconic abilities such as leap and roll, however they will now have to use them wisely rather than spam them to cross the map.

---------------------

I seriously hope they reconsider these changes. Hutball will go from my favourite WZ to an insta quit overnight if these changes go through.

HaoZhao's Avatar


HaoZhao
06.05.2018 , 03:00 PM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
[*]Carrying the Huttball now applies Hinder to the character. Hinder prevents the use of high mobility actions such as Force Charge, Force Speed, Scamper, and more.
I'm not quite sure if the team has thought this through. Hinder prevents the use of high mobility abilities that primarily have that function. What it doesn't stop is abilities that gain a high mobility effect through a skill tree or utilities. Classes and specs that have access to such mobility upgrades may have an unintended advantage over those who don't.

Also, consider that for some classes/specs, mobility boosters are a vital part of their defences and those defences are needed to carry the ball. For example, scrapper scoundrel is currently the best ball carrier, without question. It uses its roll immunity to protect itself while running the ball. Lethality operative uses roll to trigger its free cast of Kolto Infusion. Etc., etc. With permanent hindrance, scoundrel/operative will absolutely be the WORST ball carrier. You'll basically be trying to score with nothing other than Shield Probe and Evasion to protect you. If this change goes ahead, the best strategy for the carrying the ball as a scoundrel will be to immediately unload it onto the nearest team mate, as soon as you get it. The same principle applies to specs like Vengeance, which uses force charge to trigger its stun immunity or assassins which use force speed for the 60% damage reduction utility. A lot of these classes/specs are just going to be stunned and shredded as soon as they touch the ball. Think of the poor Vanguards who only have Hold the Line as their only ability that helps them carry the ball.

I agree that the current maps favour some classes over others, but the solution is to adjust the maps and not make many specs/classes unplayable as ball carriers.

Aries_cz's Avatar


Aries_cz
06.05.2018 , 03:01 PM | #35
I like the changes, but...

There is definite danger of the ball carrier always being the tank, grabbing it and solo carry it to the end, alternatively with sage/sorc pulls or vanguard/ptech swap. These abilities definitely need to cause loss of Huttball.

Also, maybe to disincentivize the role of carrier to only fall to tanks and to inctntivize actually throwing the ball like you are supposed to, if it would be possible, some reduction of their defensive buff to bring them more or less in line with others?

Pseudocode incoming
Code:
if (player.spec === "tank") {
    player.defense -= x%
}
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Metthew's Avatar


Metthew
06.05.2018 , 03:02 PM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by yellow_ View Post
I am 100% sure this will be a non concern.

The reason operative acid cancer is so effective right now is how absurdly fast acid kills you. They need to buy very little time to let acid do 99% of the work. So little that double rolling towards some LOS, having all their dcds up if anyone actually manages to catch them, and clicking off their endurance buff can do the trick.

New acid will need the 10 seconds old acid kills you in just to *reach the dps of old acid*. You will have plenty of time to chase them and dump hard stuns and nets into them now. Which will make any 1vX extraordinarily difficult to win.
Well, without offheals, instead of 10s it now takes 14s. Not significantly longer, but 4s difference may be enough to hardstun and burst an operative who wasted a double roll and evasion. I might just be exaggerating the time it takes for an operative to kite.

Any offheals or two for the chasing people should make it a straightforward win still also.

Quote:
Operative acid trolls like to say that anyone losing to the tactic "deserves" to lose. This is idiotic. But starting with this new patch it will actually be true (except in 1v1s, which operatives win anyways).
++

Going's Avatar


Going
06.05.2018 , 03:04 PM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by kissingaiur View Post
if they implement cross faction in solo ranked more people will be put into the player pool, this could help even out the elo situation or at least help it.
I think the values could be adjusted though. I'm willing to bet that it still has the same gains/losses from 2.4, and that regardless of cross faction doesn't sound correct.

The problem is that the elo gains are to low to compensate for the elo loss. For the current system to work correctly, the game needs WAY more people constantly playing like overwatch and such. I just feel it could be re-examined and made to feel more rewarding and less punishing as it stands today.
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Seterade's Avatar


Seterade
06.05.2018 , 03:07 PM | #38
pred and pullls already work on "hinder". the thing about it being applied is to push you to pass and work together

EricMusco's Avatar


EricMusco
06.05.2018 , 03:10 PM | #39 Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread. Next  
Quote: Originally Posted by Pallais View Post
Does Hinder apply to Sage/Sorc Pulls, too? If it doesn't then a Sage/Sorc + Tank becomes the de facto ball running team (given that Hinder basically says only have a tank run the Huttball). Also, would the Huttball matchmaking ensure a tank on both teams? The side without a tank would be at a disadvantage.

Snave's suggested healing debuff would be a better answer to getting more passing of the Huttball. You would only want to hold on to it for so long, dps would still do well as Huttball carriers, and the matchmaking wouldn't need to be as fussy about tanks/healers.
Hinder is intended to apply to to Sage/Sorc pulls, yes. Translocate / Transpose as well. Meaning those abilities will not work on Hindered targets.

-eric
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yellow_'s Avatar


yellow_
06.05.2018 , 03:11 PM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by Metthew View Post
Well, without offheals, instead of 10s it now takes 14s. Not significantly longer, but 4s difference may be enough to hardstun and burst an operative who wasted a double roll and evasion. I might just be exaggerating the time it takes for an operative to kite.

Any offheals or two for the chasing people should make it a straightforward win still also.

++
ok I see what you're saying now

my initial reading of what musco posted was that there's a flat 1% dps on you and a stacking healing debuff, but you've read it as both stacking. unfortunately the wording is ambiguous....but you're right that it would be about 14-15 seconds to die under your reading of it

edit: being able to medpac would actually buy you 2 more seconds, but this is still dangerously close to the old TTK if your interpretation is correct.

@musco can you clarify?