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Vig/Veng leap should be usable in melee range and double as root breaker

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Guardian / Juggernaut
Vig/Veng leap should be usable in melee range and double as root breaker

Bonzenaattori's Avatar


Bonzenaattori
02.09.2018 , 04:34 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by wadecounty View Post
Let's be realistic for a second here, maybe you've never played the class before. 4 root breakers... so you have the one tied to Enrage, a DPS ability, on a 1 minute cooldown. Which means you have to sacrifice its use for damage if you want it as a root break, and its only available once a minute. Mad Dash root break, again tied to a utility so you have to sacrifice something, on a 35 second cooldown. This is the best one the class has, and its still on a fairly long cooldown, and does not give you additional speed meaning you can be rooted/snared again 2 seconds after its use. Enraged Defense, which actually does not break roots so too bad so sad if you're already rooted, and on a 2 minute cooldown (1 minute 30 second possible if spec'd). Also only lasts for duration of the cooldown, so if you have any dots on you, its gone in a second or two. And finally Unremitting, which also isn't a root break, only immunity upon leap, meaning all the opponent has to do is kite within melee range and keep you rooted and snared to prevent you from utilizing it.

Oh yippee, what a mobile class.

Meanwhile, SIns have 50% speed boost with 50% uptime from Ball Lightning, and Force Speed every 15 seconds which actually does break roots (and they can still spec Phantom Stride to break them as well). Maras have Predation which is the ultimate movement utility so discussion over there. And PT's have Hydraulics up for 10 out of every 45 seconds with +75% movement speed (that's about 20% uptime). And that's just the other melee classes. Oh and operative troll roll > all but we already know that.

Its a fact, Juggs are the easiest melee class to lock down in the game right now, especially DPS Juggs because they lack the +30% speed when guarded target is attacked ability that tanks get.
Name another class other that sith warriors that have 4 ways of breaking root as seperate cooldowns please.
Okay then shut the f*ck up and get good
Oh god warrior not mobile its the end of the video game

I must've missed the part where warrior as an archetype meant they were literally unstoppable with 100% uptime without having to spend any value other than a rudimentary gap closer they spend literally 0 utility points on for... that has a lower cooldown than any other gosh darn cooldown/interaction he's comparing it to. Despite the fact the ability he's demanding gets changed, literally has the effect he's butthurt about in the first place, roots. Ironic

You're the type of player who in the event every class in the game had EXACTLY the same cooldowns, you'd still lose, get mad and whine instead of seeing the need to improve.
The very argument you're raising you don't even apply to the skills you're dropping except Hydralics.
An operative cannot roll if he's rooted. But that doesn't matter, because you're a trash player who doesn't think like that.
A sin's movement speed from ball lightning doesn't work if you're rooted already, but that doesn't matter because you're a trash player who doesn't think like that.
A marauder isn't immune to roots AFTER popping predation... but guess what. That doesn't matter, because you're a trash player who doesn't think like that.

I mean, who cares if a Marauder has to spend one utility point in master tier, and one utility point in heroic tier, just to get the combination of effects you're referring to?
Who cares if an assassin has to spend utility in masterful to get a movement speed effect and they're still vulnerable to roots and it doesn't purge roots either and its 18 seconds not 15 because you're so special you don't even have to do research and learn interactions.
Who cares if you have more interactions than powertechs, assassins and marauders, the very classes you're referring to.
Marauders having 3
Assassins having 3
Powertechs having 1

Who cares if you have more roots than all of them combined, with Obliterate, charge, saber throw, ravage root...? And then they whine when the same interaction happens to them

Who literally cares?
Who cares if you get 10% damage amp WITH NO COOLDOWN, every time you get rooted and can break the root on activation every single time? Who actually cares?!

So instead of thinking that maybe, if you planned AHEAD and realise these classes have to use multiple abilities to remove a root in a situation, maybe they're spending more value than you are. But no, that doesn't matter, becuase you're a trash player who... doesn't think like that.


LEARN YOUR MATCH UPS AND STOP NERD RAGING... PLEASE

wadecounty's Avatar


wadecounty
02.10.2018 , 03:27 PM | #12
Woah dude, think you need to take your own advice about the nerd rage. Big font and red letters, oh no!

Anyways you keep saying Juggs have 4 root breaks, they don't, they have 2, and since you complained about utilities, Juggs have to spend utility points to get those root breaks as well. Enrage, root break + 6 sec immunity on 1 minute cooldown so 10% uptime at most, and Blade Blitz version (which Maras also get). You blow both and for 33 seconds if the opponent is smart at all, they'll never let you get a leap off and you're walking in molasses, besides the roots of course (Enraged Defense speed utility is pointless and doesn't root/snare break only gives speed).

Its about uptime and the ease with which roots/snares can be reapplied. Most classes can do so instantly and spam them now, and unless we go back and change that, then you need to have easy access root/snare breakers on short cooldowns to counter it.

Maras, yeah to upgrade Predation to make it awesome costs utilities. And yet every Mara does so, because its that good. Also if you use the version that requires Fury there's no cooldown, so you can always sacrifice damage to spam it constantly, and it has the added benefits of the defense chance and teamwide effect. I don't even know why you're trying to dismiss Predation, every Jugg would trade that for Unstoppable in a heartbeat, especially now that Ravage sucks, which was the main advantage to Unstoppable in the first place (giving you the ability to cleanly land it).

Sins yes Ball Lightning utility doesn't break roots/snares but they're still running around like they're on crack constantly because of it, that said both of their gap closers have root/snare breaks tied to utilities, Force Speed alone on a 15 second cooldown is incredible for that purpose.

PT's I'll actually agree have it worse than Juggs in some ways, but they also play differently with most of their attacks having 10 meter range, which affords them more flexibility in terms of how closely they have to fight. You can't 4-10 meter kite a PT, you can't do it that well to an assassin either, but if the Jugg is Vengeance you can do it all day, he has 2 attacks to hit you with that aren't on very long cooldowns and then nothing. Of course PT's have another issue and that's survivability but that's another area of balance, so I'll leave that alone here.

I even agreed in a separate post that it doesn't need to be an all-or nothing change. You could make it just usable in melee range. Or just usable as a root breaker (obviously either of these functionalities should cost a high up utility as well). I even suggested simply making the Intercede root break for Rage spec apply for all Juggs as a compromise. Its not like its a huge issue, but right now DPS Juggs are near the back of the line in the mobility arms race and they're also not great in terms of survivability, and both of these issues are related.

Anyways, whatever happens happens. I don't even care that much, I subbed because my guild needed a fill-in for ops, so now I get to post again and decided to sh*tpost about some mobility on the forums. This game is on its deathbed anyways, and I'd be ten times happier if it died tomorrow and EA gave up the rights to the Star Wars IP but I know that ain't happening.
Kandel - Juggernaut Lef - Guardian
Nyeetra - Assassin Milarra - Sage
Lendros - Mercenary Jakor - Vanguard
Iseline - Operative Lysandere - Gunslinger

AdjeYo's Avatar


AdjeYo
02.10.2018 , 06:40 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by wadecounty View Post
Anyways you keep saying Juggs have 4 root breaks, they don't, they have 2, and since you complained about utilities, Juggs have to spend utility points to get those root breaks as well. Enrage, root break + 6 sec immunity on 1 minute cooldown so 10% uptime at most, and Blade Blitz version (which Maras also get). You blow both and for 33 seconds if the opponent is smart at all, they'll never let you get a leap off and you're walking in molasses, besides the roots of course (Enraged Defense speed utility is pointless and doesn't root/snare break only gives speed).
Actually enrage doesn't grant any immunity, just 6 seconds of movement speed increase, it does have a 45 second cooldown though. Then you could theoretically get the cleanse on Endure Pain, although that makes for a very lousy rootbreaker (a far cry from the good old 10 seconds of root immunity on Endure Pain, but I guess that got nerfed because tanks got it for 20 seconds, making it a root immunity with 1/3 uptime).

wadecounty's Avatar


wadecounty
02.11.2018 , 12:00 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by AdjeYo View Post
Actually enrage doesn't grant any immunity, just 6 seconds of movement speed increase, it does have a 45 second cooldown though. Then you could theoretically get the cleanse on Endure Pain, although that makes for a very lousy rootbreaker (a far cry from the good old 10 seconds of root immunity on Endure Pain, but I guess that got nerfed because tanks got it for 20 seconds, making it a root immunity with 1/3 uptime).
Both good points, forgot cleanse basically = root break with the new cleanse mechanic so yeah technically Endure Pain is one as well, but like said hardly worth speccing just for that.

The more I think about it, the more I think Intercede should just act as the other root break, maybe tie it into the legendary utility, and to compensate Rage Juggs, give them the old Vengeance talent of having Intercede also give them the DR boost.
Kandel - Juggernaut Lef - Guardian
Nyeetra - Assassin Milarra - Sage
Lendros - Mercenary Jakor - Vanguard
Iseline - Operative Lysandere - Gunslinger

Alec_Fortescue's Avatar


Alec_Fortescue
03.11.2018 , 08:52 AM | #15
Mobility sucks but I had some better ideas. Maybe I'll get to writing the thread again.

RACATW's Avatar


RACATW
04.16.2018 , 02:30 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by CMoray View Post
As melee DPS we have Shadow, Scoundrel, Sentinel and Vanguard.
Where Vanguard has no other purges, but 10m range, harpoon and super slow on Flak Shell.
Scoundrels don't purge with their roll but are superior immune to all effects while rolling around... And possible purge on Surrender.
Sentinels have Trancendence, which only works as a purge, every 30s. Possible purge and immunity on Force Camo and purge on Blade Blitz.
For Shadows: everything you said

Why should modifing Leap as a root breaker with 0m range improve the situation? That means you have a root breaker every 10-15s (Battlefield Command utility) which even grants immunity to all cc effects. Additionally to possible purge on Combat Focus, Enure and Blade Blitz.

The problem I see is the high amount of ccs in the game. To improve the situation the approach should be to reduce ccs instead of giving out more breakers.
Vanguards have no purge? What?
They have a purge and immunity to all push/pull/root along with speed boost. At least that's how I always spec my vg.

CMoray's Avatar


CMoray
04.16.2018 , 02:49 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by RACATW View Post
Vanguards have no purge? What?
They have a purge and immunity to all push/pull/root along with speed boost. At least that's how I always spec my vg.
Reading my post now, it looks like I simply forgot to complete my sentence. And I wrote "...Vanguard has no other purges", which does not imply that Vanguards have no purge. :P
Aurinko

Alec_Fortescue's Avatar


Alec_Fortescue
04.22.2018 , 10:44 AM | #18
Class definitely needs more mobility, jug is the easiest melee class to kite at the minute.

Enure utility should come back to its previous form. There was no reason for its nerf, nobody called for it.

AdjeYo's Avatar


AdjeYo
04.22.2018 , 12:00 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Alec_Fortescue View Post
Class definitely needs more mobility, jug is the easiest melee class to kite at the minute.

Enure utility should come back to its previous form. There was no reason for its nerf, nobody called for it.
+1 to this, would really like the root immunity on Endure Pain back, that was some good stuff.

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
04.22.2018 , 03:43 PM | #20
To me juggies are supposed to be the least mobile melee class.

Consider the others:
Shadow: sneaky assassin dualsaber type.
Operative: sneaky stab you in the back type.
PT: mobility is like the only thing they do have, flamethrower basically XD
And then mara: they are literally supposed to be the speedy glass cannon type.

This is why i think dps guardians need more of a anti focus tool. We are low mobility by design to differentiate us from our (currently superior) cousins the maras. (Seriously why run rage when you could be running fury and have superior mobility. DcDs, and damage? I admit with vigi jts a more complicated comparison).

Basically guardians are not supposed to be speedy or incredibly mobile. We are also supposed to not be cannon fodder.