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A slightly more positive outlook on TLJ *SPOILERS*

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
A slightly more positive outlook on TLJ *SPOILERS*

Soltriss's Avatar


Soltriss
12.28.2017 , 04:44 PM | #1
What can I say about this movie that hasnít been said by many others already, even myself? I guess thereís only one way forward Ė just vent.

Iíll start by saying this Ė I loved the movie, so much so that I would in fact consider it one of my all-time favorites, that list not being confined to Star Wars. Iíll get to why further down this wall of text. There are some obvious flaws, and I want to start with those.

The porgs are a marketing tactic Ė there, I said it, and Iím fairly certain that this one thing most people can agree on. They serve no purpose save giving Chewbacca something to do. They take too much time away from the actual good parts of the movie. Thatís all I can say about them.

The subplot with Poe and Holdo Ė in the end, it just felt like artificial drama that was put in to give the theme another leg to stand on. However, my feelings on this are mixed. There are really only two things I despise about it. The first is that it makes Poe, the most talented pilot and battle commander in the Resistance, look like a glory-seeking moron. They could have taken so many other directions with this subplot without cutting it out completely, but it was put in so Poe could learn the difference between glory and sacrifice, and thatís it. However, the fleet was in a no-win situation, and I understand the reluctance on the part of Holdo, so that kind of balances things out. The second thing, though, is that it also spawned the Space Vegas sequence.

Let me be clear Ė the only reason why I despise Space Vegas is that it, once again, spent too much time focusing on something that, in the end, didnít matter. It meant nothing, it had no bearing on the rest of the story, no difference was made. But, again, that kind of balances itself with the theme of the work. Iíll leave it there.

The way they temporarily removed Leia from the picture was both awesomeÖ and ridiculous. Enough said there.

Lastly, the film was extremely wishy-washy in many areas, as if the writers couldnít decide what they wanted to have happen, or what they wanted to be true. That ended up sinking into the plot, but not the characters, and thatís the first thing that this film got right.

It was extremely gutsy. It focused on a concept that was briefly touched upon in some of the other movies Ė failure. It defied audience expectations at just about every turn, sometimes for good, sometimes not so good.

Be warned, this is where I become a bit more biased.

Snokeís death is, arguably, the hardest part of this movie for me to swallow. I feel like Ben just thinking about it Ė inner conflict and turmoil. In the end, I decided I couldnít exactly pass judgement on it until I see what it means for the final movie.

The way they handled LukeÖ I canít actually put it into words how much I enjoyed Lukeís character arc in this movie. The way they went against the grain, the way they established him as one of the central figures of the theme, it was unexpected, yet extremely refreshing, something that this film desperately needed.

Then thereís the bond between Rey and Ben (I say Ben because thatís who it feels like Rey is connecting with, not Kylo) Ė oh. My. Goodness! That still has me gushing and hoping that they continue to evolve their relationship in Episode IX. Itís also one of the things that makes me scared for Episode IX.

But by far, my favorite part of this movie is how much it made me feel. I felt for these characters, I felt for their circumstances, and in the end, I felt like I was ďbeing torn apartĒ, the film invoked so much in me. Maybe itís because Iím a wimp, maybe Iím just a sucker for delicious angst, maybe itís just because I can relate to the characters, but after I saw the film (five days ago), I spent the whole time since thinking ĎNo! They canít leave it like that!í But, of course, they could, they did, and in fact, they had to.

Remember how I said Iím a sucker for delicious angst? My personal counter to that is it needs an equally satisfying end. Iíve never been so full of hope, yet so lacking in optimism. And the thing I hate the most is that I must wait two years to see if everything does, in fact, fall to crap.

So, yeah, I love this film, but Iím unsure Iíll be able to handle seeing it again until the next one comes out.

Leklor's Avatar


Leklor
12.28.2017 , 04:54 PM | #2
While I truly disliked Space Vegas/Canto Bight, I disagree that it was useless.
It developed Finn and was the defining factor leading to Holdo's plan failing.
In a movie where the central theme is "Failure and learning to live with it and learn from it", it had its place. It was just very, VERY badly done.
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Soltriss's Avatar


Soltriss
12.28.2017 , 05:01 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Leklor View Post
While I truly disliked Space Vegas/Canto Bight, I disagree that it was useless.
It developed Finn and was the defining factor leading to Holdo's plan failing.
In a movie where the central theme is "Failure and learning to live with it and learn from it", it had its place. It was just very, VERY badly done.
That's a fair point. A not-so-subtle inference of being your own worst enemy. But again, Holdo was the only reason it was necessary, which, again, adds to character development for Poe. Just like their situation, it's a no-win scenario.

But yeah, looking at the movie from the POV of the theme makes a few things more bearable. Except the porgs, of course.

Leklor's Avatar


Leklor
12.28.2017 , 05:18 PM | #4
Agreed, the Porgs were annoying.
Although seeing it a second time made them more bearable because I knew they'd be there and it was easier to just push them back to the back of my mind.
There's just one thing that bothers me now: In TLJ, you hear Porgs all the time of Ahch-To yet you don't in TFA's final set of scenes.
I demand a Special Edition of TFA with Porgs added at the end. For consistency's sake. Also because I'm a monster ^^
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TalonVII
12.28.2017 , 06:40 PM | #5
Ben wasn't conflicted on Snoke. He made his mind up to kill him the moment he smashed his helmet to pieces.

And his fighter. I WANT IT. I had a nerdgasm over Ben's fighter. *drool*
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Soltriss's Avatar


Soltriss
12.29.2017 , 07:39 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by TalonVII View Post
Ben wasn't conflicted on Snoke. He made his mind up to kill him the moment he smashed his helmet to pieces.

And his fighter. I WANT IT. I had a nerdgasm over Ben's fighter. *drool*
I meant I felt like Ben in general, just me personally in regards to Snoke.

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annabethchase
12.30.2017 , 12:14 AM | #7
In regards to the "not needed subplots, esp. Canto Bight" here's some food for thought that I'm not seeing others bring up at all:

The First Order has to be a believable villain for this to work. Honestly, I wasn't sure about them in the lead up to TFA, but within the timeline of the two movies they've convinced me. Remember this whole 2 movie set takes place in less than a week.

They went from not officially being "at war" with the New Republic to wiping out the government and apparently whatever standing military they had in TFA. Yes, they lost their "death star" but they didn't lose their entire fleet which clearly wasn't at Starkiller base.

The resistance on the other hand got their tails whipped in TLJ. Let's start with the 3 leads:
Rey - her role here was to bring in a great symbol of hope that the galaxy could rally around and lead to an inflow of recruits. That didn't happen. Instead, Luke is now dead. Did Rey really "win" here?
Finn - Finn's role was to sneak aboard the FO ship and disable the tracker. He got most of the way but ultimately they were caught because that BB-9 unit scanned BB-8 through his trash can. Got to say Finn and company didn't really "win" either. And just for the record, they didn't even knock out the tracker first before they got caught. Rose still hadn't done her part of the plan before they got caught. So the fleet couldn't escape
Poe - he took out the Executrix, a major accomplishment. However, it appears that cost the Resistance maybe half or even more of their fighters. So this is a Pyric victory at best. Then, he tried to execute a plan that would go around the chain of command. While it may well have been the moral decision, he still failed at that as well and got stunned by Leia for his efforts.

That's not to imply the 3 main characters didn't show massive development as leaders over the course of the movie, just that objectively speaking they got beaten by the First Order overall in this movie.

As to the FO, Kylo Ren in my opinion has surpassed Vader in terms of accomplishments. He defeated his master and became the new supreme overlord. Vader for all his accomplishments died while doing so. I don't view Kylo as a weak character and for now Kylo is displaying the most strength of anyone currently alive at the end of TLJ.

Then let's speak to the currently known military of the Resistance. We have the Falcon and crew, 1 new Jedi, 1 General, less than 5 command staff and less than 20 total military members.

Overall I'm very impressed that they managed to let the FO win massively and yet still set up a believable path to victory for the Resistance in the form of them now being setup to recruit outside help.
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Soltriss's Avatar


Soltriss
12.30.2017 , 05:55 AM | #8
Again, fair enough. And I'm actually excited to see where the conflict between the First Order and the Resistance goes from here - especially with the two main characters on opposing sides being connected the way they are.

forestguard's Avatar


forestguard
01.03.2018 , 04:29 PM | #9
Random fact about the Porgs. While they became more marketing focused (like how they are on the Falcon), the island they used was a wildlife preserve, and there were puffins everywhere. Porgs were digital costumes for them since they couldnít physically remove them and digitally removing them might have been tricky
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Soltriss's Avatar


Soltriss
01.04.2018 , 12:14 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by forestguard View Post
Random fact about the Porgs. While they became more marketing focused (like how they are on the Falcon), the island they used was a wildlife preserve, and there were puffins everywhere. Porgs were digital costumes for them since they couldnít physically remove them and digitally removing them might have been tricky
I became aware of this a few days ago. I can absolutely accept that they were necessary for the island. I'm still not big on forgiving the filmmakers for putting them on the Falcon, Chewbacca clearly didn't want them there. They were tearing the place up!