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The Last Jedi Is Facing A Very Vocal Minority

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
The Last Jedi Is Facing A Very Vocal Minority

adormitul's Avatar


adormitul
12.29.2017 , 08:56 AM | #81
Quote: Originally Posted by AlienEyeTX View Post
Ok, so you do that... then what? Like they'll keep using large, capital ships? If they started light-speed ramming everything, the solution would be to use smaller vessels... on both sides. Moving your fleet/army becomes much more difficult. At best, it becomes a numbers game, with the larger fleet overwhelming the smaller. At worst, armies no longer travel through space because "I guess the enemy is just going to ram us."

Again, I simply don't see how such a tactic makes any sort of sense to anyone. Think it through to its logical conclusion.
Now that is an good explanation not there not able to do build enough ships or not cost effective. **** that when you have near limitless resources and the tech to extract it. Better said that they did an gentlemen agreement of not using and tactic that will stop space travel and as an destroy civilization as they know it.

Leklor's Avatar


Leklor
12.29.2017 , 09:41 AM | #82
Quote:
Now that is an good explanation not there not able to do build enough ships or not cost effective.
I never said "Not able to build enough. When I mentionned the amount of ressources it was at the beginning of this thread, oh so long ago, when you asked why the galaxy wouldn't spawn gazillions of ships to destroy the First Order.
As for cost-effective, I do maintain my stance.
Three Imperial Star Destroyers were enough to glass the surface of a planet and render it unfit to organic life.
So with the ressources to build three capital ships, you either have three weapons of terror and control that can be used multiple times... or three one use battering rams. Make the calculations.

Quote:
**** that when you have near limitless resources and the tech to extract it.
Extracting the ressources is all good. But what about transforming it? Assembling the components? Having the technical knowledge to actually build worthwhile ships? As I said, you try to reduce the issue to a matter of numbers when it's much more than that.

Quote:
Better said that they did an gentlemen agreement of not using and tactic that will stop space travel and as an destroy civilization as they know it.
Or simply that they are not imbeciles who know the value of a sturdy and multi-purpose vehicle which isn't just a one-time projectile.
Tell me, what could the Raddus do before it was used as a last-time resort by Holdo?
It was a mobile command center, could transport troops, shuttles and starfighters, had medical facilities.
If space battering ram were the norm, then those things wouldn't be put inside them, right?
But then, as AlienTX mentionned, how do you move troops and fighters between systems? Well you build dedicated ships for that. So you still have your regular ships and you now have the added requirements to produce battering rams for ***** and giggles.
Also, tactically, how do a battle based on ships ramming each other work? People line up and speed towards each other, hoping that they've put enough armor on the front to resist? I wonder why, if it ever was the strategy used, it was not perpetuated...
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AlienEyeTX's Avatar


AlienEyeTX
12.29.2017 , 10:00 AM | #83
Quote: Originally Posted by Leklor View Post
Or simply that they are not imbeciles who know the value of a sturdy and multi-purpose vehicle which isn't just a one-time projectile.
Tell me, what could the Raddus do before it was used as a last-time resort by Holdo?
It was a mobile command center, could transport troops, shuttles and starfighters, had medical facilities.
If space battering ram were the norm, then those things wouldn't be put inside them, right?
But then, as AlienTX mentionned, how do you move troops and fighters between systems? Well you build dedicated ships for that. So you still have your regular ships and you now have the added requirements to produce battering rams for ***** and giggles.
Also, tactically, how do a battle based on ships ramming each other work? People line up and speed towards each other, hoping that they've put enough armor on the front to resist? I wonder why, if it ever was the strategy used, it was not perpetuated...
I suppose another way that it could go is that they would put more resources into developing better shield technology. Or, they would send decoy ships. So then you just have one empty ship ramming another empty ship.

Mobile command centers would become useless, as mentioned. So battles would be strategized from the ground. So then I guess we just ram the base at light speed, consequences to the rest of the planet be darned. Guess we need to evacuate the base and head for... SPACE! Oh, wait...

All in all, let's just remember that this is the movie franchise that has given us moon-sized battle stations that can apparently move well enough through space to get close enough to Alderaan just after destroying Jeddah. As well as a planet-sized cannon that is not melted by the solar flare that it uses to charge up.

Don't forget the space wizards who are able to move things with their mind, but only toss people into walls when it's convenient, rather than right at the start of any fight when they could follow-up by Force-choking the enemy to death. Let's not forget that they can lift fighters with their minds, but if they drop their laser sword it's just gone. And why don't they just use the Force to persuade enemy fighters to attack each other?

And let's not forget the big one from any film ever... why do they take dangerous enemies prisoner instead of just killing them on sight?
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adormitul's Avatar


adormitul
12.29.2017 , 10:13 AM | #84
Quote: Originally Posted by Leklor View Post
I never said "Not able to build enough. When I mentionned the amount of ressources it was at the beginning of this thread, oh so long ago, when you asked why the galaxy wouldn't spawn gazillions of ships to destroy the First Order.
As for cost-effective, I do maintain my stance.
Three Imperial Star Destroyers were enough to glass the surface of a planet and render it unfit to organic life.
So with the ressources to build three capital ships, you either have three weapons of terror and control that can be used multiple times... or three one use battering rams. Make the calculations.



Extracting the ressources is all good. But what about transforming it? Assembling the components? Having the technical knowledge to actually build worthwhile ships? As I said, you try to reduce the issue to a matter of numbers when it's much more than that.



Or simply that they are not imbeciles who know the value of a sturdy and multi-purpose vehicle which isn't just a one-time projectile.
Tell me, what could the Raddus do before it was used as a last-time resort by Holdo?
It was a mobile command center, could transport troops, shuttles and starfighters, had medical facilities.
If space battering ram were the norm, then those things wouldn't be put inside them, right?
But then, as AlienTX mentionned, how do you move troops and fighters between systems? Well you build dedicated ships for that. So you still have your regular ships and you now have the added requirements to produce battering rams for ***** and giggles.
Also, tactically, how do a battle based on ships ramming each other work? People line up and speed towards each other, hoping that they've put enough armor on the front to resist? I wonder why, if it ever was the strategy used, it was not perpetuated...
Again you assume that its an problem for the transforming and the know it how. Well its not there enough know it how to do it and with droids and machines there more then enough know it how to transform the resources and too build ships with them. Even Tatooine(200000) had the know it how you know the planet with 2 suns that is very very hard to live in, in large part because of the crime syndicate that operated there but I hope you get my point.
Naboo had the know it how and build ships and it was an backwards planet of 600 million sentient beings. Not that big and not in the core systems imagine the planets in the core systems how many they can build.

Why was it not perpetuated I wonder well its simple the creators do not know the scale of their freaking galaxy they bought it from not that the previous owner knew but he was an little better.

When you have the ability to create or use huge numbers of military anything you will use it. We on our planet used it quite an lot especially in the previous century. I mean in the end the 2 great wars where won in the end because one side far outproduced the other and defeated it.

Leklor's Avatar


Leklor
12.29.2017 , 11:37 AM | #85
I get your point, trust me. I just don't think the galaxy works like this.
And to be honest, my original answer was to the question: "Why does the First Order controls the galaxy in TLJ?"
My point was that in the handful of days (Or even hours, it's no clear) since the destruction of Hosnian Prime, no one has had time to build new ships and/or assemble them into a coherent force. And there were no real military force because of the demilitarisation decree which was believed to be a good idea when it was passed and voted.
Considering John Boyega's comments that Episode IX is "The war to end all wars", I firmly believe that the scenario you describe (Planets building their ships and opposing the First Order) is a possible one, even a likely one.
Just, without hyperspace ramming.
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adormitul's Avatar


adormitul
12.29.2017 , 03:41 PM | #86
Quote: Originally Posted by Leklor View Post
I get your point, trust me. I just don't think the galaxy works like this.
And to be honest, my original answer was to the question: "Why does the First Order controls the galaxy in TLJ?"
My point was that in the handful of days (Or even hours, it's no clear) since the destruction of Hosnian Prime, no one has had time to build new ships and/or assemble them into a coherent force. And there were no real military force because of the demilitarisation decree which was believed to be a good idea when it was passed and voted.
Considering John Boyega's comments that Episode IX is "The war to end all wars", I firmly believe that the scenario you describe (Planets building their ships and opposing the First Order) is a possible one, even a likely one.
Just, without hyperspace ramming.
I always wonder why that senator was so optimistic unreal even. Forgot her name even in Rebels she went with tactics that do the least damage at least in terms of sentient life to both factions.
How can she be so naive as to do think the demilitarisation decree was an good idea while there where still forces of the imperial empire left. Unless you completely and utterly destroy every capability of them to wage war that is just stupid more so even when she knew the first order is growing its military.

Leklor's Avatar


Leklor
12.29.2017 , 05:26 PM | #87
Quote: Originally Posted by adormitul View Post
I always wonder why that senator was so optimistic unreal even. Forgot her name even in Rebels she went with tactics that do the least damage at least in terms of sentient life to both factions.
How can she be so naive as to do think the demilitarisation decree was an good idea while there where still forces of the imperial empire left. Unless you completely and utterly destroy every capability of them to wage war that is just stupid more so even when she knew the first order is growing its military.
Well Mon Mothma has been through two galactic-wide wars and has seen the result of Operation Cinder (Palpatine's plan of "If I can't have the galaxy, no one can) so she overreacted and thought (And managed to convince people) that a massive demilitarization decree following the Empire's apparent final defeat above Jakku was a good idea.
And, you know, for nearly three decades it worked. When it first manifested, the First Order presented itself as a purely political entity made up of Empire-nostalgics who managed to turn a lot of people against the New Republic through revealing Leia's parentage and bribery.
Mothma was no longer in office by the time it became clear that the First Order was a actually in posession of a massive (Relatively speaking) fleet. And the then-current president of the NR was a massive pacifist to the point of absurdity, which ended up costing the lives of billions when Hosnian Prime was blown up.
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Burana's Avatar


Burana
01.08.2018 , 04:18 PM | #88
Quote: Originally Posted by adormitul View Post
My questions how did the New Order with 30 or so star destroyers took the galaxy there millions of star systems with billions of planets how can you you control such an galaxy with such an small force.

Spoiler


Answer this and I can see your point.
Spoiler


As for taking the Galaxy. Remember, they had that Star destroyer thing which took out 4-5 planets out with one shot. Those were not just some planets, among them was Coruscant (the capital planet with the seat of the Republic Government).
And the book "The Force awakens" explains the point that the New Republic was not really working out, as people were not used to democracy, many systems plainly supported The First Order, they even didn't need to be conquered.

DarthDymond's Avatar


DarthDymond
01.08.2018 , 04:40 PM | #89
Quote: Originally Posted by Burana View Post
As for taking the Galaxy. Remember, they had that Star destroyer thing which took out 4-5 planets out with one shot. Those were not just some planets, among them was Coruscant (the capital planet with the seat of the Republic Government).
Coruscant wasn't one of the planets destroyed by Starkiller Base -- it was the Hosnian System, including the New Republic's capital, Hosnian Prime. Although unfortunately one would need to read a side book for that to be clear.

I loved TFA, but it really didn't "set the stage" very well in terms of what the heck was going on with the New Republic / First Order / Resistance dynamic.
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