The China law does make you wonder why a law was needed in the first place. What are they hiding that it would go that far? Well, we know why they don't want that information just available. How much will people spend when they know their chances are 1/1000 or whatever. It discourages the purchase which is the last thing they want. Those poor companies having to suffer such evil laws.

Oh, games are for kids. The label means nothing.

Trespasser isn't the ending but the setup for the next game. The Solas story didn't end there. It just began. And I can't wait!

I’ve read a few posts here saying how would games stay a float with out this system we have. If it wasn’t for the system, swtor would fail because they’d have no funds.

It’s an easy answer, make people pay for expansions like we used to do before cash shops. Go back 10 or even 7 years ago and the idea of cash shops was frowned on, even pay to win was discouraged.

Companies made their money from Selling the game at a slightly higher amount and then people paid for subscriptions.

Free to play wasn’t a thing. If you wanted to play a big title you had to pay for it.

Go back 10-15 years ago and subscriptions weren’t really a thing. The idea really started to spread with the success of World of Warcraft.

The reason cash shops and free to play started to spread through out the gaming industry is because of things like Facebook games and then tablet game apps that seem free until you found it was purely pay to win or it would take a lifetime to get anything good as F2P. Once the big boy companies like EA saw how much money these guys were making, they wanted a slice of that pie too. Next thing we have the same features permeating the bigger title games.

This hasn’t been an over night progression, it’s been introduced slowly to get people used to it. As the popularity of iPad apps increased and their market share grew, more and more people were exposed to pay to win, pay walls and RNG gambling. Now we are desensitised to it and think it’s normal, especially younger people who don’t remember when you could pay for a game once, have no subscription fee’s and play it as much as you want with no extra costs until an expansion came out.

I know subs are here to stay, but this other type of behaviour isn’t needed to make money for those companies, all they need to do is make quality products to get people to pay for them and have paid for expansions like some games still do. Get rid of F2P to start with and people won’t have a choice. They either pay or they don’t have any games to play.

In my opinion, F2P is a scourge on the industry and it’s one of the reasons companies look for other revenue streams.

I’ve read a few posts here saying how would games stay a float with out this system we have. If it wasn’t for the system, swtor would fail because they’d have no funds.

 

It’s an easy answer, make people pay for expansions like we used to do before cash shops. Go back 10 or even 7 years ago and the idea of cash shops was frowned on, even pay to win was discouraged.

Companies made their money from Selling the game at a slightly higher amount and then people paid for subscriptions.

Free to play wasn’t a thing. If you wanted to play a big title you had to pay for it.

Go back 10-15 years ago and subscriptions weren’t really a thing. The idea really started to spread with the success of World of Warcraft.

 

The reason cash shops and free to play started to spread through out the gaming industry is because of things like Facebook games and then tablet game apps that seem free until you found it was purely pay to win or it would take a lifetime to get anything good as F2P. Once the big boy companies like EA saw how much money these guys were making, they wanted a slice of that pie too. Next thing we have the same features permeating the bigger title games.

This hasn’t been an over night progression, it’s been introduced slowly to get people used to it. As the popularity of iPad apps increased and their market share grew, more and more people were exposed to pay to win, pay walls and RNG gambling. Now we are desensitised to it and think it’s normal, especially younger people who don’t remember when you could pay for a game once, have no subscription fee’s and play it as much as you want with no extra costs until an expansion came out.

 

I know subs are here to stay, but this other type of behaviour isn’t needed to make money for those companies, all they need to do is make quality products to get people to pay for them and have paid for expansions like some games still do. Get rid of F2P to start with and people won’t have a choice. They either pay or they don’t have any games to play.

In my opinion, F2P is a scourge on the industry and it’s one of the reasons companies look for other revenue streams.

It's simple.

Make everyone else pay for what I want.

It's simple.

 

Make everyone else pay for what I want.

😂😂😂 damn, that is simple. Can I put my name down for that too?

CONTROVERSY WARNING!

You know what would make all these lootboxes etc less of a thing?

Putting the price of games up. They've been at 60 buckaroos since forever and while more gamers than ever are out there the production of videogames has skyrocketed. From a business perspective, unless said game is something like a GTA game where the return is still humongous most games can't get that.

Of course most publishers wouldn't dare do it as it would kill them due to whiny gamers latching onto the evil used market.

I know it wouldn't kill lootboxes etc entirely because money but they'd have less of a leg to stand on.

I know subs are here to stay, but this other type of behaviour isn’t needed to make money for those companies, all they need to do is make quality products to get people to pay for them and have paid for expansions like some games still do. Get rid of F2P to start with and people won’t have a choice. They either pay or they don’t have any games to play.

In my opinion, F2P is a scourge on the industry and it’s one of the reasons companies look for other revenue streams.

That would require they actually make expansions and retain a development team to do so, that costs money. The problem you'll find is that a game in development will likely have a much larger development team than one that is essentially maintaining a game. Developers cost money, without a significant cost to the publisher, this simply will not change as they have shareholders to answer to.

Having F2P isn't an entirely defunct idea, it worked quite well for SWTOR with weekly passes being available to have unlimited access to certain types of content. Equally games that have a "trial period" where someone can play the content unrestricted for a set period of time, or until a certain level, helps to provide population boosts and a potential customer going forward if they like the content they see.

Cash shops for shiny pixels can work well, however the issue is cash shops with "loot boxes" where the odds are not published. It's essentially gambling, regardless of those "loot boxes" being available for in-game currency or through subscriber CC grants, the option is still there for someone to pay real cash to gamble on the content of those "loot boxes".

The answer is pretty simple, either publish the odds of winning, or remove the ability to pay real cash to obtain "loot boxes". The latter will essentially damage revenue, the former will also likely damage revenue if people saw the actual odds of obtaining those shiny pixels. The only people to blame for abusing this, are the games companies and publishers themselves in the quest for more revenues.

China has the right idea, and as someone who lives in a western democracy, I never thought I'd be saying that.

Yeah but maybe if more countries pick it up we can outlaw stupid RNG style systems in favor of direct sales. Maybe even get more premium gear for our troubles because hey, who is gunna sink RL cash into junk that they can see is only junk? So it would all have to look appealing to make people want to purchase it.

It ain't going to happen. RNG is part of any MMO. It is part of the drops in operations and flashpoints on what gear will show up.. It is part of whether or not you'll get a crit on crafting. It is woven into the very fabric of the genre. What you will see is game shops taking the lowest cost method to complying with the law.

So as the title says there is a petition in the UK atm to adapt gambling laws to include gambling (RNG, Dropboxes) in video games which targets children

 

I saw this link on Reddit and it feels relevant considering how RNG focused this game has become,

 

 

So if it goes through, doesn’t that mean the end of RNG on games that can be played by children under the age of 18, which is the legal age of adulthood in many countries.

 

No more RNG?

This law(amendment?) needs to get passed, but not only in UK, but also in wider EU and in the US too. In fact, during the last EU Parliament elections, there was, not that much mind you, a talk about adapting gambling laws to end online gambling scams. I think that they focused on Poker and Betting, but it can be adapted for games too. ESPECIALLY with these crap AAA games and their forced micros. Forza, Battlefront, Shadow of War, Destiny 2 etc.

Want to know the saddest truth? Those games aren't bad by themselves. Well, at the very least Forza, BF and D2 aren't. But the chosen revenue system just DESTROYS them!

So, we could have this in Europe, but we need to have it in US too. But, let's be real now...do you think that the corporate stooge like Donald will go AGAINST corporations? WB / EA etc will just send a check to him(or Trump Organization) and everything is going to fall by the wayside.

As long as it isn't passed in the US, it's pretty much irrelevant.

edit: I don't think it can be applied outside of lootboxes though. Unless you want gvt officials / politicians taking part in the game design...imagine the BOREFEST! And everything I said applies to lootboxes and in game markets ONLY.

I suppose there would have to be a distinction made between types of RNG boxes...those you get for free from doing activities in the game should be ok (even if we don't like them) and should be all right enough for kids.

 

The boxes that we pay for, like packs, that's a different story, because people can get in real financial trouble buying and trying to get what they want from them. And the odds of getting something great have become so astronomical it's gotten ridiculous. I haven't gotten anything I truly wanted since the very first varactyl. I've bought much of the stuff I want off the GTN, but even that's gone beyond the realm of possibility...with lightsabers costing over fifty million or in some cases more...same with the lightning effect things you can put on them...to make the lightsaber I'd like to have, I'd have to spend a billion, when you consider the crystal, the hilt, the special effect and its guts. (Then I'd have to get cc to unlock the things, cause I need two for my character I want it for)

 

I've always preferred direct sales. Have a list of items with a price and go from there. I know that I would dearly love medical stanchions, but *laughs* someone was trying to sell *one* for a billion. Riiiiiiight.

Luna makes a great point here. This thread has 2 different discussions going at once. The rng Cartel Market and the rng Galactic Command. While the CM is definitely a form of gambling to most people, the GC crates are not. They are random prizes you get for playing the game. Of course there are purists who would say rng in any form is gambling but then they should stop and reflect on the matter that the entire game only functions because of rng. Every swing of a lightsaber, every shot of a gun, every resulting damage or heal tally is determined by rng. Even npc mechanics including non token loot are determined by rng. I know when Galactic Command came out I was one of the extremely vocal ones against it being the sole source of gear but they have made great strides and now it's more of a supplemental form of gearing than a primary source. They are even making it so disintegration gives you currency to buy what you want. Imo, the whole discussion of forcing gaming companies to remove rng from video games (for gambling purposes) isn't well thought out as games function only because of rng.

PS: If you haven't noticed, the CM is direct selling all the most sought after pack items now, just significantly later than pack releases. Kudo's

How else do you put pressure on an entire industry who is deadset on making everything RNG and micro transactions?

Agreed. Given the amount of money that game companies can make and have comtrol of allthe odds in the RNG game.

Like real gambling there needs to be a bit of oversight to make sure they are not overly screwing over the gamers.

I'd vote for a law like that to pass so there was some "fairness" and oversight on game companies that are turning everything in RNG and no telling how they are designing things on the back end to screw you over. At least in places like casinos and that RNG they have some regulation so you cannot be just totally screwed over.

RNg is part of gambling and RNG is part of gaming but I can see gaming needing a bit of oversight to keep gamers from being screwed over because when a company just wants to make money and has control over all the odds and weights, there going to make sure you, the game, are not treated fairly when it comes to their money in your pocket.

A law like that isn't for games yet but I'd be Ok with it.

I don't think it would affect video games, ring is part of most games in general what loot drops off of mobs = rng, how much coin drops from mobs = rng. RNG is a part of gaming, it has been for a very long lime.

Not video games themselves, but it might cause politics to take a closer look at the area of microtransactions. Where I don't see any issues with direct sales, I can imagine that the cartel packs might be something they could look at. I'm not a lawyer though, so I don't know it this would fall under gambling laws, but I would be interested in finding out what an investigation would conclude.

I was able to stop buying cartel packs myself but I did feel the pull of it each month and I don't assume that others will equally be able to do so. Impulse control is not a given in our genetic make up as such. That's why there need to be protections in place, so companies cannot exploit consumers or at least not that easily.

That's up to the law to decide I guess. I have my opinion about it but that's just my opinion.

I won't say anything about age restriction, the one we have in France are pretty messed up and dumb (They once promoted an animated movie "For all ages" because it was "3D animation, not a real film", allowing thousands of peoples to take their kid watch a 3D sex party on the big screen).

As for RnG, I don't personally like the concept of it on CM, so a way to have less of it ? I'm all in. Still, I want peoples to see something that might have slipped through...

Did you see the prices on the CM for actual items ? Like 2000CC for Tulak Hord set (advertised with a "Promotion", otherwise it would be 2500CC). Or even Weapon Tuning or Black/Black Dye ? Those are way too much money for what they truly are. The only reason why I haven't bought a Guild Rename is that it basically cost 30euro, which is something I'm not willing to afford for just a cosmetic in a game.

Less RnG will mean more direct sales item, meaning way higher prices. If the RnG (which can be really frustrating at times) prevent us from spending 20bucks on just a cosmetic item (the price of what used to be an expansion), then I think it is worth something for now.

Reminds me of the "We are going to report you to the Nevada Gaming Commission" threads from years ago

Seriously? That was a thing?

Seriously? That was a thing?

Hugely, I think it was WoW forums, but it could have been UO.

Reminds me of the "We are going to report you to the Nevada Gaming Commission" threads from years ago

whaaaaaat ?

What is even this thing ? :')

Not video games themselves, but it might cause politics to take a closer look at the area of microtransactions. Where I don't see any issues with direct sales, I can imagine that the cartel packs might be something they could look at. I'm not a lawyer though, so I don't know it this would fall under gambling laws, but I would be interested in finding out what an investigation would conclude.

 

I was able to stop buying cartel packs myself but I did feel the pull of it each month and I don't assume that others will equally be able to do so. Impulse control is not a given in our genetic make up as such. That's why there need to be protections in place, so companies cannot exploit consumers or at least not that easily.

 

That's up to the law to decide I guess. I have my opinion about it but that's just my opinion.

agreed. I havent bought a hypercrate in a long time, but I still feel the pull when a new one comes out.

If the law made them tell you up front what the odds were, it would be an eye opener for a lot of people.

I don't think it'd do much to the industry end on the US side of things though.

Granted, I hate micro-transactions (the source of the RNG if you ask me) and would love to see the mmorpg industry return to it's sub-only, paid expansions, all content is included in game roots. But it seems doubtful that would do anything to change attitudes of business developers on our end.

Net result: Some mmorpgs maybe get an age requirement to buy/play bumped up a bit across the pond.

One of the problems with RNG as a whole is the lack of transparency on the odds. As someone else pointed out, they can change those odds when ever they like.

Like if they see to many people getting the main reward and sales dropping off because there are too many on the GTN, then they just adjust those odds so it doesn’t drop. For all we know, this might be what they do. Have you ever noticed that when new packs come out, there are quite a few people getting the main reward. People get excited seeing people running around with it for a few days to a week. Then all of a sudden they don’t drop and prices on the GTN sky rocket.

I’m not saying that’s what happens, but there is no checks and balances and nothing stopping them from doing that.

How many people have noticed that when you hit CXP 300, the Tier 4 drops diminish significantly. I’ve seen lots of posts about this in a few threads. One reason they would do this is to keep people grinding it longer, even though they are max 300. It’s means Bioware don’t need to add another tier to grind.

All of that is supposition, but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen or there isn’t a bit of truth in it.

agreed. I havent bought a hypercrate in a long time, but I still feel the pull when a new one comes out.

If the law made them tell you up front what the odds were, it would be an eye opener for a lot of people.

It’s why I stopped at the behest of my partner. She used to buy a 24x pack once a month, then they changed the packs and started to fiddle with the odds because main things stopped dropping and so much of the medium to rubbish stuff dropped that it was less than 3000 credits on the GTN. They became a complete waste of money and I honestly can’t believe people are still suckered into buying them. If more people had stopped buying them in protest, maybe they would have gone back to the old system. But people believe Bioware way too much and have no comon sense.

I don’t know wether Bioware make more money from the current way they do it or not, but I have to believe they’d sell more if they were the way they used to be.

It’s why I stopped at the behest of my partner. She used to buy a 24x pack once a month, then they changed the packs and started to fiddle with the odds because main things stopped dropping and so much of the medium to rubbish stuff dropped that it was less than 3000 credits on the GTN. They became a complete waste of money and I honestly can’t believe people are still suckered into buying them. If more people had stopped buying them in protest, maybe they would have gone back to the old system. But people believe Bioware way too much and have no comon sense.

I don’t know wether Bioware make more money from the current way they do it or not, but I have to believe they’d sell more if they were the way they used to be.

Right now they are making money selling the packs and then later they will make more selling by direct sale. This way is optimal from a business standpoint.

Right now they are making money selling the packs and then later they will make more selling by direct sale. This way is optimal from a business standpoint.

The question is, would they be making more money if they’d kept to the old way they used to have the packs before they started the process of changing them from how they were originally.

Looks like these loot boxes and micro transaction anger is ramping up with in the gaming community