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Jedi, Imperial Aligned [Spoilers Ahead]

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Jedi, Imperial Aligned [Spoilers Ahead]

lawfig's Avatar


lawfig
09.28.2017 , 09:04 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by devilkat View Post
I have a hard time siding with the Republic with any of my toons simply because I find Malcom very off-putting. Not to mention the crap that happened with Saresh. It almost seems like they are trying to turn the Republic into the bad guys.
This. I have to force myself to side with the republic. They were zero help in fighting Arcann/Vaylyn. Only the empire showed up on Voss to help and become an ally. This is disturbing to me because when I started playing years ago I only played republic thinking empire is bad. Having played through all the stories multiple times, I think the empire seems a lot more appealing than the republic.

OldVengeance's Avatar


OldVengeance
09.28.2017 , 06:38 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by lawfig View Post
This. I have to force myself to side with the republic. They were zero help in fighting Arcann/Vaylyn. Only the empire showed up on Voss to help and become an ally. This is disturbing to me because when I started playing years ago I only played republic thinking empire is bad. Having played through all the stories multiple times, I think the empire seems a lot more appealing than the republic.
I really have no idea how anyone could come to this conclusion. The fact that the Empire are the bad guys is not supposed to be subtle.

The Republic is a democracy that all species in the galaxy can join. The Empire is racist absolute monarchy built on slave labor and conquest. It is also ruled exclusively by a violent treacherous class of force users that have absolute power over the lower classes.

The Jedi Knight story is about saving all life in the galaxy from the Sith Emperor. The Consular, Trooper, and Smuggler storylines are essentially all about saving the Republic from a Sith Empire's attempt to conquer or destroy it.

The Warrior, and Inquisitor stories are about overcoming the brutal backstabbing politics of the Sith in order to gain power and revenge. The Bounty Hunter story is essentially about committing crimes for personal glory. The first half of Imperial Agent story is about one of the leaders of the Empire enacting a conspiracy to kill hundreds of thousands of his own people in order to rise above his peers in the Dark Council and "plant terror and hatred in every heart."

The fact that the Sith helped against Vaylin's evil empire does not mean they themselves were not also an evil empire. They're former conquerors that were tired of being dominated by a stronger empire.

Even the planetary quests make this clear.

Dromund Kaas features a Sith Lord in open rebellion, a slave rebellion being put down by a sadistic Sith Lord (the LS option is to poison slaves to death and the DS option is to poison slaves to death in horrible agony), and a group of Sith acolytes legally murdering civilians people for fun. And the Sith Acolytes could get away with that as long as they don't attack other Sith.

Coruscant's quests usually involve stopping criminals and repairing the damage the Empire caused.

Imperial Balmorra is a story about crushing freedom fighters trying to free their world from tyranny.

Republic Balmorra is a story about helping those freedom fighters liberate their world from oppression.

Republic Taris is about trying to resettle a devastated world and make it habitable again.

Imperial Taris is about trying to murder colonists, so that a world that was obliterated by the Sith can never be settled by the Republic again.

Imperial Nar Shadda features a story about crushing the leader of alien refugees that fled have fled persecution at the Empire's hands.

Republic Nar Shadda features a story about stopping the genocide of the Evocii who were being murdered in the Empire's extermination factories.

Imperial Corellia is about brutally subjugating the people of Corellia.

Republic Coreliia is about ending the brutal subjugation of the people of Corellia.

Even in the places where the Republic is doing bad things, such as Belsavis, the Empire is usually doing something worse.

devilkat's Avatar


devilkat
09.28.2017 , 08:02 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by OldVengeance View Post
I really have no idea how anyone could come to this conclusion. The fact that the Empire are the bad guys is not supposed to be subtle.

The Republic is a democracy that all species in the galaxy can join. The Empire is racist absolute monarchy built on slave labor and conquest. It is also ruled exclusively by a violent treacherous class of force users that have absolute power over the lower classes.

The Jedi Knight story is about saving all life in the galaxy from the Sith Emperor. The Consular, Trooper, and Smuggler storylines are essentially all about saving the Republic from a Sith Empire's attempt to conquer or destroy it.

The Warrior, and Inquisitor stories are about overcoming the brutal backstabbing politics of the Sith in order to gain power and revenge. The Bounty Hunter story is essentially about committing crimes for personal glory. The first half of Imperial Agent story is about one of the leaders of the Empire enacting a conspiracy to kill hundreds of thousands of his own people in order to rise above his peers in the Dark Council and "plant terror and hatred in every heart."

The fact that the Sith helped against Vaylin's evil empire does not mean they themselves were not also an evil empire. They're former conquerors that were tired of being dominated by a stronger empire.

Even the planetary quests make this clear.

Dromund Kaas features a Sith Lord in open rebellion, a slave rebellion being put down by a sadistic Sith Lord (the LS option is to poison slaves to death and the DS option is to poison slaves to death in horrible agony), and a group of Sith acolytes legally murdering civilians people for fun. And the Sith Acolytes could get away with that as long as they don't attack other Sith.

Coruscant's quests usually involve stopping criminals and repairing the damage the Empire caused.

Imperial Balmorra is a story about crushing freedom fighters trying to free their world from tyranny.

Republic Balmorra is a story about helping those freedom fighters liberate their world from oppression.

Republic Taris is about trying to resettle a devastated world and make it habitable again.

Imperial Taris is about trying to murder colonists, so that a world that was obliterated by the Sith can never be settled by the Republic again.

Imperial Nar Shadda features a story about crushing the leader of alien refugees that fled have fled persecution at the Empire's hands.

Republic Nar Shadda features a story about stopping the genocide of the Evocii who were being murdered in the Empire's extermination factories.

Imperial Corellia is about brutally subjugating the people of Corellia.

Republic Coreliia is about ending the brutal subjugation of the people of Corellia.

Even in the places where the Republic is doing bad things, such as Belsavis, the Empire is usually doing something worse.
The storylines for each class are exactly what you make them. You can be a completely brutal, jerk of a soldier or a totally light side Sith. Which is actually a really nice part about this game. As for the planetary stories, the same applies. The Sith on Dromand Kass is going to kill those people anyway, regardless if you help him or not. He wants to watch them suffer, you can choose to end it quickly. Either way, they would have been killed, you just get to choose how much pain they'll have to be in. You can save the men in Lord Grathan's estate (that whole quest is one of the most messed up stories I've ever come across, and I wasn't just your character who wanted that guy stopped). You can have the Acolytes punished by sabotaging their "game".

Corusaunt's senators and republic officials are just as corrupt as the Sith, they just hide it better. You get one quest where you have to either return to the senator or a security agent a box of slave collar chips. Your General Garza wants you to murder innocent civilians because of something that they MIGHT be, and it turns out later that they had never been a threat. They allowed a militant group to take over an entire sector, gangs to take over others. They have an army, and they let these things go.

The Empire wants Balmorra for its weapons, no other reason. They had already fought the Republic once, won, and the Republic left. The Republic isn't on Balmorra for the freedom fighters, they just want to get the weapons back from the Empire.

Ancient Taris was considered a jewel of the Republic, but we all know how aliens were treated. Just because they are allowed to freely join, doesn't mean they're equal. The reconstruction is nothing more than a publicity play on Sareshe's part to get in good with the Senate. IMO, stopping Saresh from getting her way should be considered a public service

On Nar Shadda, you have to option to send the aliens to another planet rather than killing them.

Corellia was basically handed to the Empire by their own government. There was a lot of disagreement among the higher ups and the citizens as to which way they should go. The war didn't start until the Republic moved in and started fighting the Imps.

Belsavis belongs to the Republic. As a way to destabilize them, the Imps release prisoners. As it turns out, the Taris mentality is alive and well here. There are people who were born in the prison, and inherit their parents' sentences. Same thing happened on Taris with the "Promised Ones".

The Republic is far from the good guy. The Empire isn't all bad. They're both gray.
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OldVengeance's Avatar


OldVengeance
09.29.2017 , 12:47 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by devilkat View Post
The storylines for each class are exactly what you make them. You can be a completely brutal, jerk of a soldier or a totally light side Sith. Which is actually a really nice part about this game. As for the planetary stories, the same applies.
That's not entirely true. Some things you can choose, but there are certain circumstances that are always present in class and planetary stories. A Lightside Sith is still not really a good person. The Bounty Hunter, for example, always has to compete in a famous murder competition for personal glory in Chapter 1 and shoot up an Evocii base on Hutta to get there, no matter if they were light or dark.

A LS Imperial character will always murder rebelling slaves and innocent Jawas unless they skip those planetary quests. A lot of LS Imperial choices amount to doing something less bad or more bad. And usually the LS choice is improvising a different choice than what the Imperial quest giver "ordered" you to.

But my point was less about the player characters personally and more about the Empire itself. Yes, the Agent can stop Eradication Day (or capture its mastermind), but Darth Jadus always tries it. This is the sort of thing that happens in the Sith Empire.

Quote: Originally Posted by devilkat View Post
The Sith on Dromand Kass is going to kill those people anyway, regardless if you help him or not. He wants to watch them suffer, you can choose to end it quickly. Either way, they would have been killed, you just get to choose how much pain they'll have to be in. You can save the men in Lord Grathan's estate (that whole quest is one of the most messed up stories I've ever come across, and I wasn't just your character who wanted that guy stopped). You can have the Acolytes punished by sabotaging their "game".
You're kind of making my point for me here. Regardless of what your character does, those things always happen in the Empire. It's a terrible place. Also you can't save the victims of Grathan's atrocities, you can only prolong their suffering or euthanize them.

Quote: Originally Posted by devilkat View Post
Corusaunt's senators and republic officials are just as corrupt as the Sith, they just hide it better. You get one quest where you have to either return to the senator or a security agent a box of slave collar chips. Your General Garza wants you to murder innocent civilians because of something that they MIGHT be, and it turns out later that they had never been a threat. They allowed a militant group to take over an entire sector, gangs to take over others. They have an army, and they let these things go.
Coruscant Senators are not as corrupt as the Sith, that's ridiculous. You're comparing one fringe Senator trying to legalize slavery (and can be arrested for possessing slave collars) with the entire ruling class of the Empire. The Empire has so many slaves that they are used for things like building giant statues, and can often be killed on a whim. No Sith will ever be punished by the Empire for having slaves. Coruscant Senators also can't go around murdering civilians for fun with impunity like Sith (even the lower ranked Sith) can.

And one of the other corrupt Senators was using her corruption to help repair the damage done by the Sith. Garza wants you kill those civilians because she believes they are a risk to other civilians.

Coruscant is a planet wide megatropolis with trillions of inhabitants. I believe Garza (or someone) says that most sectors are safe, only a few are dangerous. And in large part these are due to the damage from the sacking of Coruscant. I'd say the Republic does a remarkable job maintaining order by those standards.

Quote: Originally Posted by devilkat View Post
The Empire wants Balmorra for its weapons, no other reason. They had already fought the Republic once, won, and the Republic left. The Republic isn't on Balmorra for the freedom fighters, they just want to get the weapons back from the Empire.
I don't think that's true. The Empire also wants another world to rule. And people from the Republic express sympathy for the people of Balmorra suffering under Imperial rule. But even if they were both just there for the weapons, my point still stands. The Empire is brutally oppressing Balmorrans to get heir weapons. The Republic is liberating them from oppression to get their weapons.

Quote: Originally Posted by devilkat View Post
Ancient Taris was considered a jewel of the Republic, but we all know how aliens were treated. Just because they are allowed to freely join, doesn't mean they're equal. The reconstruction is nothing more than a publicity play on Sareshe's part to get in good with the Senate. IMO, stopping Saresh from getting her way should be considered a public service
The racism on Taris was a policy on Taris, not the whole Republic. But this is another example of something bad in the Republic, while something worse was done by the Sith. The Sith conquered the planet and then exterminated everyone there to try to kill one Jedi.

And again, as for the story in TOR itself, my point still stands. The Republic is trying to heal a devastated world, and the Empire is trying to murder the colonists there.

Quote: Originally Posted by devilkat View Post
On Nar Shadda, you have to option to send the aliens to another planet rather than killing them.
That's true, and it's certainly better than killing them but it's just another example of how bad the Empire is. At BEST it's a story about how the Empire brutally attacked many worlds unprovoked. Then killed, enslaved or expelled many people, and then evicted desperate alien refugees again.

Quote: Originally Posted by devilkat View Post
Corellia was basically handed to the Empire by their own government. There was a lot of disagreement among the higher ups and the citizens as to which way they should go. The war didn't start until the Republic moved in and started fighting the Imps.
The Corellian government sold Corellia to the Empire against the wishes of the people of Corellia, who strongly resisted them. Both the Republic and Imperial stories on the planet feature Corellian government officials who lament the fact that the people of Corellia fought back.

Quote: Originally Posted by devilkat View Post
Belsavis belongs to the Republic. As a way to destabilize them, the Imps release prisoners. As it turns out, the Taris mentality is alive and well here. There are people who were born in the prison, and inherit their parents' sentences. Same thing happened on Taris with the "Promised Ones".
I'd say releasing some of the most dangerous criminals in the galaxy in order to cause chaos, all in service of freeing some of the most evil Sith who ever, lived puts the Empire on the wrong side of the issue. And that's not even taking into account that Imperial forces were also trying to destroy the planet and all surrounding systems in order to kill trillions of people there.

Quote: Originally Posted by devilkat View Post
The Republic is far from the good guy. The Empire isn't all bad. They're both gray.
Obviously not every individual in each faction is good or bad, but one is vastly vastly worse than the other. In the Jedi Knight story alone, we see the Sith attempt six individual acts planetary genocide, and they succeed at one.

That's not really surprising, is it? The Sith and Jedi characters were based on the archetypes of Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker. Acting in some way similar to the Jedi and Sith characters in the movies was designed to be a large part of the fun of roleplaying Jedi and Sith in the game.

Paulsutherland's Avatar


Paulsutherland
09.29.2017 , 01:44 PM | #15
I favour the Sith Empire, while I'm no fan of Acina, she did side with me during the war with the Eternal Empire, where as the whole thing with Saresh, I suspect had it succeeded she would of had the Alliance, under her control join the Republic.

Lana says the new Republic Chancellor is Saresh's lapdog, I wouldn't be surprised if the power grab move was thought up by both of them.

MikeCobalt's Avatar


MikeCobalt
09.29.2017 , 02:21 PM | #16
Haha . Acina wasn't there to *help you as such. Like so many other Fair Weather, opportunist friends she runs in at the very end to Finish off "Whoever" is the loser and later say "Remember I was there and helped you so we're allies and friends now...right"? There had already been Sith bowing to Arcann (Sith Self Preservation right). She was NoT there for the Struggle, not there when it was seemingly Hopeless and certainly Not Helping when the outlander and Lana were Running like H**l for the Shuttle we had waited "3 minutes for". She like so many others of that type will and frequently have said whatever to come out on top and most likely would have (as so often happens) had the Outlander *Moved out of the way later on to claim all the "Spoils" for herself. Valkorians Ploy did atleast have a bit of a chance but Acina's just wasn't the caliber of Charmer/Con Artists as Val. She was there for Ulterior motives, nothing Wholesome, not Righteous and certainly not to Help. They're stabbing each other in the back everyday (Lorman ) no reason to think this woulda came to any other outcome. That Superweapon, she planned on having that before she got there, fight for it or you hand it over.

Imperious's Avatar


Imperious
09.29.2017 , 05:03 PM | #17
I played my first Jedi Sentinel as a pragmatic Jedi (more a light-sided but still pragmatic specially after being into Vitiate control):
Ord Mantel was an example of how the Republic tends to forget about planets: the people living there were already mad against the corrupt Republic friendly criminals and when they claimed independence; the Republic sent Havoc Squad to cleanse the rebels...

Coruscant was a mess, all thanks to senator who only looked mostly after themselves, few do things for the people: to ally with smugglers and pirates is not what I call a "righteous" democracy...

Republic incompetence is always on sight: Taris is an excellent example how bad done and the poorly defended against the rakghouls, pirates and more over to have them near the Sith Empire.

If you remember, the people of Balmorra didn't wanted anything with the Republic (but to sell weapons and research on the money of the Republic, horrible experiments like the Colicoids). Even if you help the resistance, they don't exactly like the Republic military...

All the Makeb story was a HINT on what the Republic was willing to sacrifice to defeat the Sith (their ideals), most of the choices of my Jedi were questioned by the Chancellor because of the little help and resources gotten from the people of Makeb. But it was "right" to force the Hutts to join their fleet against the Sith: bravo!

Ziost was the biggest mistake: not gonna even explain the biggest failure of the Jedi/Republic there...

While on Darth Marr's flagship, my Jedi Sentinel was questioned about the Republic's intentions (the Republic was not helping officially and limited their help)... later on, the Republic never helped the Alliance openly like the Sith Empire: later on the encounter with the new Havoc Squad there's some interesting words you exchange with Jorgan:
"Is Saresh still in power?"
"The Republic we fought is gone, there's nothing but tyrants left in the galaxy"
"Then nothing has changed..."

Later on even Saresh tells you that she saw the opportunity and took it, she wouldn't apologize for that. Later the letter of the Republic Chancellor tells you that the speech against you broadcasted Republic wide "was a ruse" and that they were grateful you stopped Saresh.

Not giving into temptation: my Jedi Sentinel devoted to rebuild the galaxy...

Then again, the Republic under Theron's father attempted to take the upper hand against both: the Alliance and the Sith Empire with THE SAME magic words of Saresh: "I won't apologize for that..."

Too familiar, isn't it?

The decision was made the moment they invaded Iokath, if they used better words, my Jedi Sentinel would have sided them: but it was rather convinient for the Republic and they said the Republic "needed the Weapon to survive", when they already failed to destroy the Sith and to kill you... Theron's betrayal only helps to stand by the choice: Side with the Sith Empire.
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DoctorArkeville
10.08.2017 , 06:44 AM | #18
The Republic, though it has its faults, is still better.
"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others".
The Republic is in drastic times and have to, therefore, use drastic measures and can't handle everything. Even more so in the Outlander Saga because the Republic is starved of their resources by the Eternal Empire and can't help. The Empire can because it has less morals and have a more prepared militia, harder soldiers, and a "If you don't do this, you die attitude". I do think that the Republic should be better and Malcom, having been through a lot of ---- and, in the book Annihilation, has been described as a more layered character and not entirely good.
In conclusion: The Republic is broken, but it can be redeemed by those willing to help.

Many people can be influenced by the ideal of peace to make war. In the Prequels, Chancellor Palpatine was influencing Anakin to give up the idea of the Republic and the Jedi for peace, justice and security when Palpatine will only manipulate. The Sith will probably do the same. Lead you astray then back stab you "when something has no more value, discard it.". Acina might not back stab you but someone else can take the Empire and rule. By joining the Sith, you might only damn yourself to a path of darkness