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Pubs, please, stop whining, start winning

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Pubs, please, stop whining, start winning

RooRider's Avatar


RooRider
09.17.2017 , 09:30 PM | #111
Quote: Originally Posted by Markark View Post
Things that cause PvP losses:

~ Staying in the opponents group AT their cap, spamming AOE damage to beef your numbers instead of kiting/luring them away from the cap to allow team mates to stealth in & cap....inversely, getting lured away from your own cap, allowing them in to take it.

~ A single tank or DPS running off to to East or Snow with a pocket healer, leaving the group @ south/mid with no healer.....then informing the group they blew it because their DPS was so low.

IMO, the single biggest problem, aside awful healer/tank imbalances in PvP queues, is DPS obsession with numbers - any caveman can stand in a group and hammer AOE's to get their numbers up, then blame the group's "low DPS" after losing, but if you do nothing to help your group with objectives, it was your obsession with tunnel vision DPS that cost your group the game.
Pub mentality, anyone doing over 2k dps must be aoe spamming. First of all, you have to politely ask the opposition to kindly stand in close proximity to one another to make that even work; maybe if you ask nicely enough they might oblige.

Things that cause pubs to lose so much in pvp.

1) They can't read. Each ability has a description of what it does, each passive ability has a description of what it does. It might help to read those descriptions. Also, when one of your abilities becomes highlighted and starts flashing, the game is trying to tell you something. Randomly clicking your abilities isn't an effective way to play the game.

2) They have no idea how to play their class. Here's the mindset of your typical sage; "Durrrr I'm a dot sage, durrrr there's an arsenal merc over there, durrrr I'm going to go stand directly in front of him, face tank him and 1v1 him, durrrr."

3) They have no situational awareness.

- 2 pubs v 3 imps situation; 1 dps, 1 healer vs 3 dps. 2 imps are attacking the healer, the other imp is attacking the pub dps. Typically, who will the pub dps attack?

- Here's one of my favorites; your typical pub guardian is getting attacked, but his health bar magically continues to be replenished. Standing in his field of vision are 3 mercs and a dot sorc, leaving 4 enemy players unaccounted for (1 presumably guarding, 3 not in frame). There are no team mates in his field of vision. Does he a) turn around to see what's happening behind him; or b) force leap into the pack of mercs?

4) They talk about objectives, but actually stink at playing them.

- Novare Coast, you start at the SE spawn, which is the hardest node to defend? The NW node. Where do three of your dps run to at the start of the game? The NW node.

- Voidstar, you rack up fantastic defense points standing directly in front of the door making the perfect wz dummy for the 2 snipers and 3 mercs practicing their rotation on you. At the end of the game you feel very satisfied as you got the highest objective points on your team.

The next two are from the past few days.
a) A guy is guarding the pylon in hypergate (standing directly on top of it of course). A sin comes along and saps him. At this stage does he type in chat alerting his team, or does he remain silent, break the mezz and get soft stunned again and capped on? He does the later. When asked about it, the response was priceless, "I wanted to hold off as long as possible before being capped on." Ok, so by doing this there is less time in the round for your team to take back the pylon; and they don't know it's being attacked until it's lost, thereby wasting a further 20 seconds before they're able to respond.
b) An entire round (and I mean an entire round) of voidstar, a guy spam capped the door. He must have tried at least 50 times to plant that bomb, he'd get interrupted, then go right back to planting. I was watching on in wonder. At the end of the game I had to ask why, why after attempt number 50 did he think the 51st attempt was going to succeed. "Because it works all the time." Ok, let's say he capped on that 51st attempt, 50 failed attempts and 1 successful attempt; now I'm no math wiz, but by my calculations those aren't very good odds.

5) Gearing issues. They have no idea how to go about gearing or what stats they should be using. There are countless guides all over the webz that players have taken the time to write, with the intention of helping others improve. These guides unfortunately don't find their way into the hands of your average pub scrub.
Even small things like using a versatile stim; they cost less than 10k on gtn, they last for hours, and people still don't use them. But my favorite is class buffs; they cost nothing, and people still don't use them. This is the God honest truth; if I can go an entire map on pubs without having to put class buffs on someone, I consider that game a win.

6) Over complicating every single game. All of these clever plans, "... instead of kiting/luring them away from the cap to allow team mates to stealth in & cap..." You're hoping you happen to have a shadow readily there in stealth, precisely waiting for this to happen...but I digress. Are the 8 of you all on the same wave length? Does each know what the other is doing at any particular time? Are you effectively able to communicate in detail at a seconds notice? The answer to all of those in no. Most pub players don't even know what THEY'RE doing, much less what any of their team or the enemy are doing. Ops chat isn't exactly ideal for writing in detail, when it's so time consuming, everything in pvp happens very fast, and most of your team can't even read to begin with (see point 1). Unless your team are all in voice comm, or have ESP, excessive communication isn't practical.
What I've found in the thousands of games I've played, is the most direct route to victory is your best chance at victory, especially when pugging. If that's not working, then you can try improvising. But the best advice I could give to the master pub tacticians is to apply the kiss method (keep it simple, stupid).

Seriously, stick to the basics. If you're a dps, learn how to deal damage, learn how to position yourself, learn how to use your dcd's, learn to watch the game that is transpiring around you. If you're a tank, learn to guard swap, learn to taunt, basically learn how to be a complete nuisance to the other team. If you're a healer, learn to anticipate what is going to happen; learn to pro-actively heal, learn how to kite (I'm talking to you, sage face tank healers), learn how to position, learn how to los.

If pub scrubs could learn to do the basic things right, then there might be hope.
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Enjoyer of mediocre games

Markark's Avatar


Markark
09.18.2017 , 08:40 AM | #112
Quote: Originally Posted by RooRider View Post
Seriously, stick to the basics. .....
Seriously, do.

As I stated, one of the biggest problems in 8v8, aside the greater problem of bad queue balances, is DPS's obsessing over total damage while ignoring strategy, then using that to blame the rest of the group's low DPS after the fact.

Name calling - i.e. "scrubs", by people whom are powerless in real life seeking to "empower" themselves is put-off for PvP.

Aeneas_Falco's Avatar


Aeneas_Falco
09.18.2017 , 09:26 PM | #113
It depends on the server.

On Ebon Hawk the Republic wins about on average probably 2 out of every 3 matches versus Imps.

RooRider's Avatar


RooRider
09.18.2017 , 10:39 PM | #114
Quote: Originally Posted by Markark View Post
Seriously, do.

As I stated, one of the biggest problems in 8v8, aside the greater problem of bad queue balances, is DPS's obsessing over total damage while ignoring strategy, then using that to blame the rest of the group's low DPS after the fact.

Name calling - i.e. "scrubs", by people whom are powerless in real life seeking to "empower" themselves is put-off for PvP.
From everything I wrote, the only thing that registered was me calling your average pub pvp'er a scrub... That's not a personal attack on you or any of the other scrubs that queue pub side for pvp. You/they might be wonderful people outside of the game; be great family men/women; make positive contributions to society; live rich, rewarding lives... but when they step into a swtor war zone (at least on Harbinger) they stink it up. If you take offense at being called bad at a game, that's all on you, buddy. If your self worth is derived from considering yourself good at this game, then you might need to reassess a few things.

"As I stated, one of the biggest problems in 8v8...is DPS's obsessing over total damage while ignoring strategy..."

- That's in your opinion, that's not a fact. I can only speak from personal experience, which is limited to playing Harbinger server at certain times of the day. And in my experience, pub dps definitely aren't obsessed with their numbers, because their numbers are terrible. The average player I encounter on pub side couldn't do 2k dps in a game. 2k dps isn't a lot, but if your average player were capable of doing somewhere in the region of 2,000-2,500 dps, that would at least put them on par with imps. When I play on imp side, the overwhelming majority of games are imp vs imp, I'd say at least 90% of games. These games can be competitive, and with so many people in queue the team composition changes from game to game, helping to make a pvp session more interesting. On the occasions that it's imps vs pubs, pubs don't just lose, they get smashed, beaten into a bloody pulp.

But let's look at your complaint about pubs ignoring your tactics.
You decide to write a paragraph in ops chat to 7 complete strangers at the start of the game, detailing your clever plan to steal a node. In doing so you're making false assumptions right from the beginning.

1) You're assuming people are reading what you are writing in ops chat, most people aren't.
Christ, you came to the pvp forum, whose purpose is reading and writing, and couldn't even bother to read what I wrote in my previous post (or more likely, you chose to disregard 99% of it, as the internet is a safe place, where people come to have their pre-existing beliefs validated, not challenged). People don't even read what is written in forum posts, a site they have purposefully come to, to read things! What makes you think people are reading what you write during the game? Maybe half the people in your team might bother to read what you're writing in ops chat.

2) You're assuming people will (or should) follow your plan.
Why should they? Have you earned their respect in game? Have you proven yourself to be a strong player who wins more than you lose? Based exactly on what reason should your team subjugate themselves to you?
If people have previous experience with you, and respect your pvp ability, they might follow your instructions. If they don't know you, they'll do a quick inspection, check out your valor rank, see how well you're geared etc. If you're in full 248s with valor rank 90 or above, they might consider that you know what you're talking about. But when they do a quick check and see you in a mishmash of green and blue gear...no augments...no set bonus...not using a stim...valor rank of 35...you have next to no possibility of having anyone follow your lead, because you haven't earned any respect from them, and rightly so.

3) People are able to carry out your instructions.
Let's go back and look at your last clever plan, all you have to do is pull the enemy off the node and your stealth player will come along and steal the node. Ok, let's assume you have a stealth player in your team readily available, who has read what you've written and he/she and your entire team are all on board with your plan. Now you need to make the other team comply. What happens when they don't all run away from the node? What happens when they kill your team at the node because yourself and the rest of your team aren't capable of winning the node by force? What happens then? Are you able to call a timeout mid-game and write another detailed plan in ops chat?

4) You're able to win the game by stealing a node.
All of your plan miraculously works up to this point. Your team read your chat pre-game, they followed your instructions and the other team were compliant and left the node unattended for you to take. Now you have the node, how do you keep it? I've seen this happen in the likes of novare coast, the dominant team at south have all run away from the node and are spawn camping the weaker team; along comes a sneaky stealth and caps south while the dominant team is busy having lulz. As soon as the node is capped, the dominant team now actually have a purpose, take back their node and win the game; so they just march back to the node and take it by force. Well done, instead of losing 100-0, you lost 95-0.


Look at things with a bit of logic and be honest with yourself.
People like you argue that numbers are completely irrelevant in regs. In my experience, 100% of the time, the people who make this argument aren't capable of putting up decent numbers. All you're doing is lying to yourself, which is a really unhealthy way to go through life. The ability to put up numbers is always important. At the very least, you need to be able to put up numbers comparable to the opposition before you can even think about clever tactics. If you can't take a node by force, or if you aren't able to defend a node through force, you're going to lose a huge % of the time.

Is ops chat an effective way of communicating, in detail, during the middle of a pvp match? No, it surely is not. It's useful for communicating simple things; 3S, 2G, stealth at pylon, inc pylon, help grass etc. Realistically, this is all you need in regs, simple communication. If you want to be able to effectively communicate, in detail, on the fly, then you need voice communication. It just isn't practical, on any level, to be writing detailed instructions during the middle of a match in ops chat.


If you're intent on kidding yourself that numbers are irrelevant, and believe your tactics will win the majority of games you play, I suggest you create a discord channel and find 7 like-minded individuals to group with.
If you actually want to improve as a player, and make a good account of yourself in matches, learn to play your favorite class. Educate yourself on one particular class, read guides, read what the abilities do, learn what to do in different situations. Focus on being competent on one class. Don't even worry about learning the abilities of other classes until you're strong at playing one class both offensively and defensively. Just knowing that one class is more than enough to make you competitive as an individual in regs.

Now I'm sure most of my post is completely pointless. You wrote this thread to have your opinion validated, not challenged; it's the internet after all. Why broaden your thinking and challenge your thoughts when you can have another person come along and say you are right and I am wrong. Remain in your safe space; it has made you a winning player in this game.
EA's no.1 fanboi

Enjoyer of mediocre games

danielswann's Avatar


danielswann
09.19.2017 , 10:47 AM | #115
Love this guy Totally true

Quote: Originally Posted by RooRider View Post
Pub mentality, anyone doing over 2k dps must be aoe spamming. First of all, you have to politely ask the opposition to kindly stand in close proximity to one another to make that even work; maybe if you ask nicely enough they might oblige.

Things that cause pubs to lose so much in pvp.

1) They can't read. Each ability has a description of what it does, each passive ability has a description of what it does. It might help to read those descriptions. Also, when one of your abilities becomes highlighted and starts flashing, the game is trying to tell you something. Randomly clicking your abilities isn't an effective way to play the game.

2) They have no idea how to play their class. Here's the mindset of your typical sage; "Durrrr I'm a dot sage, durrrr there's an arsenal merc over there, durrrr I'm going to go stand directly in front of him, face tank him and 1v1 him, durrrr."

3) They have no situational awareness.

- 2 pubs v 3 imps situation; 1 dps, 1 healer vs 3 dps. 2 imps are attacking the healer, the other imp is attacking the pub dps. Typically, who will the pub dps attack?

- Here's one of my favorites; your typical pub guardian is getting attacked, but his health bar magically continues to be replenished. Standing in his field of vision are 3 mercs and a dot sorc, leaving 4 enemy players unaccounted for (1 presumably guarding, 3 not in frame). There are no team mates in his field of vision. Does he a) turn around to see what's happening behind him; or b) force leap into the pack of mercs?

4) They talk about objectives, but actually stink at playing them.

- Novare Coast, you start at the SE spawn, which is the hardest node to defend? The NW node. Where do three of your dps run to at the start of the game? The NW node.

- Voidstar, you rack up fantastic defense points standing directly in front of the door making the perfect wz dummy for the 2 snipers and 3 mercs practicing their rotation on you. At the end of the game you feel very satisfied as you got the highest objective points on your team.

The next two are from the past few days.
a) A guy is guarding the pylon in hypergate (standing directly on top of it of course). A sin comes along and saps him. At this stage does he type in chat alerting his team, or does he remain silent, break the mezz and get soft stunned again and capped on? He does the later. When asked about it, the response was priceless, "I wanted to hold off as long as possible before being capped on." Ok, so by doing this there is less time in the round for your team to take back the pylon; and they don't know it's being attacked until it's lost, thereby wasting a further 20 seconds before they're able to respond.
b) An entire round (and I mean an entire round) of voidstar, a guy spam capped the door. He must have tried at least 50 times to plant that bomb, he'd get interrupted, then go right back to planting. I was watching on in wonder. At the end of the game I had to ask why, why after attempt number 50 did he think the 51st attempt was going to succeed. "Because it works all the time." Ok, let's say he capped on that 51st attempt, 50 failed attempts and 1 successful attempt; now I'm no math wiz, but by my calculations those aren't very good odds.

5) Gearing issues. They have no idea how to go about gearing or what stats they should be using. There are countless guides all over the webz that players have taken the time to write, with the intention of helping others improve. These guides unfortunately don't find their way into the hands of your average pub scrub.
Even small things like using a versatile stim; they cost less than 10k on gtn, they last for hours, and people still don't use them. But my favorite is class buffs; they cost nothing, and people still don't use them. This is the God honest truth; if I can go an entire map on pubs without having to put class buffs on someone, I consider that game a win.

6) Over complicating every single game. All of these clever plans, "... instead of kiting/luring them away from the cap to allow team mates to stealth in & cap..." You're hoping you happen to have a shadow readily there in stealth, precisely waiting for this to happen...but I digress. Are the 8 of you all on the same wave length? Does each know what the other is doing at any particular time? Are you effectively able to communicate in detail at a seconds notice? The answer to all of those in no. Most pub players don't even know what THEY'RE doing, much less what any of their team or the enemy are doing. Ops chat isn't exactly ideal for writing in detail, when it's so time consuming, everything in pvp happens very fast, and most of your team can't even read to begin with (see point 1). Unless your team are all in voice comm, or have ESP, excessive communication isn't practical.
What I've found in the thousands of games I've played, is the most direct route to victory is your best chance at victory, especially when pugging. If that's not working, then you can try improvising. But the best advice I could give to the master pub tacticians is to apply the kiss method (keep it simple, stupid).

Seriously, stick to the basics. If you're a dps, learn how to deal damage, learn how to position yourself, learn how to use your dcd's, learn to watch the game that is transpiring around you. If you're a tank, learn to guard swap, learn to taunt, basically learn how to be a complete nuisance to the other team. If you're a healer, learn to anticipate what is going to happen; learn to pro-actively heal, learn how to kite (I'm talking to you, sage face tank healers), learn how to position, learn how to los.

If pub scrubs could learn to do the basic things right, then there might be hope.

Ansultares's Avatar


Ansultares
09.19.2017 , 05:43 PM | #116
Quote: Originally Posted by Markark View Post
That said, heals ARE an issue
Always have been.
Snare

dead-cat's Avatar


dead-cat
09.20.2017 , 11:11 AM | #117
Quote: Originally Posted by RooRider View Post
4) You're able to win the game by stealing a node.
All of your plan miraculously works up to this point. Your team read your chat pre-game, they followed your instructions and the other team were compliant and left the node unattended for you to take. Now you have the node, how do you keep it? I've seen this happen in the likes of novare coast, the dominant team at south have all run away from the node and are spawn camping the weaker team; along comes a sneaky stealth and caps south while the dominant team is busy having lulz. As soon as the node is capped, the dominant team now actually have a purpose, take back their node and win the game; so they just march back to the node and take it by force. Well done, instead of losing 100-0, you lost 95-0.
While it does not happen often at all, I've been in this situation when I was on the team being farmed, but we ninja'd the south bunker. Now the dominant team did have a purpose, they returned 7 of them south. But probably because we did have a tank and a healer south and ppl were actually trying to win, the team did watch the bunker, did use AOE to stop spam caps and while the other team racked up kills (some of them got their 55 achievements, not an easy thing nowadays in NC) we did hold out to win. But yes it doesn't happen often indeed. Actually this type of approach is you only chance when you're on the clearly inferior team, while the others are busy with lulz.

Also I've noticed a trend in calling incs (when it actually happens), where the nodeguard will not surrender relevant information, like where he is right now and how many enemies are there, but takes the time to type "please come help me, i'm being attacked", or the brief, competitive version: "help" sometimes underlining the urgency by liberal proliferation of exclamation marks.
My referal: Here to get some free stuff.

Stellarcrusade's Avatar


Stellarcrusade
09.21.2017 , 07:09 PM | #118
PvP faction balance is dead. PvP is only imp vs imps now, and that's all it will be. I know it was bad, but it has reached the bottom now I believe. Here is what I mean, this is NOT an exhaggeration, you might think it is based on how shocking.

I played 7 wars (not premade) on the pub side a few days ago, then one the next day. These were the last wars I will EVER play as a pub, here is why: All but 2 of the 8 wars were 8v8, I had different teams each times, and opponents were different, this was during peak time on Harby. My char is full 248 and normally play an imp char of the same class and do quite well. Well, the only reason I was playing on pub side is because I was at 92/100 kills for the weekly conquest bonus and thought it would be cute to have it finish on the pub side. After the 8 wars, I had 92/100 still. Further more no-one on my team on ANY of those teams got 1 kill over those 8 wars over those 2 days. Enemies averaged about 20 each person each war.

Btw, to get to my 92/100 on imps, it only took me 3 wars. Nuff said.

Holenhund's Avatar


Holenhund
09.21.2017 , 11:23 PM | #119
I find it hard to believe you played 8 games without a kill. Even if they where all arenas.

Stellarcrusade's Avatar


Stellarcrusade
09.22.2017 , 07:07 AM | #120
Quote: Originally Posted by Holenhund View Post
I find it hard to believe you played 8 games without a kill. Even if they where all arenas.
Yup, that was my point. I am extremely angry about it, and upset they let balance get as bad as it is. This is why I wont pvp on pub side ever again. (because we know they will never even try to fix the imbalance).