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Add Starfighter Mode Without Gunships And Bombers,so it would be Gsf "Dog fight".

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
Add Starfighter Mode Without Gunships And Bombers,so it would be Gsf "Dog fight".

Verain's Avatar


Verain
08.19.2017 , 08:07 PM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by AlrikFassbauer View Post
I don't want to ruin other people's fun. That's an ethical thing for me. In my opinion, it is unethical to ruin other people's fun just to boost the own ego.
Competition is literally and without exception the point of player versus player combat. If you really believe this, you should simply not be in a game mode where the objective of the game is to shove hot metal and coherent plasma through your opponents, making them explode into the void of space. There's a ton of game modes where your excellent play transfers into a more enjoyable experience for a variety of players surrounding you, and if you don't play excellently, everyone has a worse time than if you did- that's actually the main game mode of MMOs, this one included.

This is truly one of the craziest things I've ever read on a pvp forum.
"The most despicable person on the GSF forum."

SeCKSEgai's Avatar


SeCKSEgai
08.19.2017 , 10:24 PM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by Verain View Post
Competition is literally and without exception the point of player versus player combat. If you really believe this, you should simply not be in a game mode where the objective of the game is to shove hot metal and coherent plasma through your opponents, making them explode into the void of space. There's a ton of game modes where your excellent play transfers into a more enjoyable experience for a variety of players surrounding you, and if you don't play excellently, everyone has a worse time than if you did- that's actually the main game mode of MMOs, this one included.

This is truly one of the craziest things I've ever read on a pvp forum.
I'm just reminded of those typical one-sided matches where its pretty clear I can utterly destroy every opposing player with minimal effort. Sure, I can obliterate everyone, but doing so gives them little incentive to return. I don't get a rush from beating up on players that lack the ability to fight back.

Of course we all know that some players will happily decimate inferior pilots relentlessly. If there were more people there really would be nothing wrong with that - but there aren't.
Réiyn - Maryss - Rölánd - Monéy - Retrocide - Reiyñ

Rélentless - Reíyn - Rölañd - Tàtiana

phalczen's Avatar


phalczen
08.20.2017 , 02:18 AM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by AlrikFassbauer View Post
So, for me, this was a really bad moment : U felt completely totally useless until I unsed "my" gunship, but as soon as I did so, I got (implicitely) shouted at [because the chat entries were not mentioning my name but my ship type, then] for ruining the game for others.
So, what you are saying is, that you adapted to the meta, which you admit fits with your general playstyle in RPGs, and when that was called out by people grumpy about what the meta is, you decided to deprive yourself? OK.

The problem isn't that you were ruining anyone's fun. See, its not about YOU. Its a problem with the meta itself. Maybe someday it will change. But in the meantime, you can choose to play the meta or you can choose to play something else.
If you think I've made a good contribution with this post, I kindly ask that you use my Refer a Friend link! Here is more information about the program.

AlrikFassbauer's Avatar


AlrikFassbauer
08.20.2017 , 05:07 AM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by Verain View Post
Competition is literally and without exception the point of player versus player combat.
I don't think you understood me.

In my context, "fun" means that people would be able to have positive experiences with even competitive games. Like getting a few kills. like survival. I believe that it is a good feeling for an underdog - or for a Newbie - to survive the assault of an veteran. Or, in the cvase of Newbies, to survive the attack of anyone.

Getting a few kills in GSF is something GREAT for a Newbie - given the fact that a Newbie nearly never gets a kill against a vet. Because vets are so much more experiernced and have so much better equipped ships. I bet that a Newbie wouldn't even get a kill against a vet in a stock ship. I'm sure of that, because the determining factor is not only skill, but also experience.

Among those positive experiences would be surviving that onslaught, too. To get killed by Gunships isn't nice for those who don't know how Gunships work.

Quote: Originally Posted by Verain View Post
Competition is literally and without exception the point of player versus player combat.
Then why did they rant against me and the Gunships in that match, then ? You are placing it so as if I was the culprit, and if I was the one slaughtering them. I was only using a Gunship, to be finally be able to be contributing to the competition, but when I was finally competitive, I got yelled at, how unfair Gunships are.


What I alweays see here is that great disconnect between the problems of Newbies and the problems of Veterans. A disconnect, so wide that I just cannot bridge it. It's as if people have amnesia of their time as Newbies or were so good at that time that they were able to be like a vet.

I don't know where this comes from, but it is everywhere : The higher skilled people become, for example in RL jobs, the more they forget the problems they had as newcomers. This phenomenon is everywhere. It seems to be like some sort of upgrading the own memory, which includes orgetting past experiences - and especially bad experiences, in which they were the "bads" themselves.

I see this disconnect here as well. Both in PvE and in PvP. People rant about "bads" not knowing what to do - with in PvE even sometimes forgetting that certain skills, which the ranters take for granted, and not received until a certain level.
Or Newbies simply needing some time to learn.
Complex minds
will create
Complex problems.

caederon's Avatar


caederon
08.20.2017 , 09:13 AM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by AlrikFassbauer View Post
Then why did they rant against me and the Gunships in that match, then ?
Because people do not always (or often) behave rationally. They do not consider the broad scope of the game mechanics and how they interact with each other, then form a reasoned position on what is or is not a good mechanic. They make no effort to think of the consequences of removing one mechanic or another. Some people are even deliberately attempting to agitate other players despite knowing their arguments are not based in reality.

Here is a 'greatest hits package' of gunship complaints:
  • Gunship pilots are cowards
  • Gunship pilots lack skill
  • Gunships are OP
  • There is no way to stop a group of Gunships
  • Hax!
_
If it was really necessary I could dig up threads as citations for these and beyond. I think we've all seen it enough. Plenty of insults are levied at Gunship pilots (who, incidentally, are often also Scout, Strike, and Bomber pilots depending on the match) and absolutely zero of them come from a point of rational thinking.

The people who are not specifically trolling others descend into this crap because they want something to pin their frustrations on and/or can't accept their own deficiencies. They don't present detailed, sensible arguments based in reality, they just spew out bile. The only reason I respond to any of it is that there is a chance people will come upon these forums and if they happen to have critical thinking skills, they will see a reasoned, evidence based counter-argument.

Btw, despite being someone well known for flying gunships, I wrote a guide on how to kill them so people could learn how to deal with the source of their frustration more productively.

Quote: Originally Posted by AlrikFassbauer View Post
You are placing it so as if I was the culprit, and if I was the one slaughtering them. I was only using a Gunship, to be finally be able to be contributing to the competition, but when I was finally competitive, I got yelled at, how unfair Gunships are.
Do you take everything everyone says everywhere as having equal value?

It is literally your job in GSF to slaughter enemy players. That is why you are there. Blowing them up is an intrinsic and inextricable part of the experience.

Quote: Originally Posted by AlrikFassbauer View Post
What I alweays see here is that great disconnect between the problems of Newbies and the problems of Veterans. A disconnect, so wide that I just cannot bridge it. It's as if people have amnesia of their time as Newbies or were so good at that time that they were able to be like a vet.
In the last seven months, I have flown 100+ games in pure stock ships, no upgrades, no changes, no nothing. I specifically did this to simulate the new player experience from both a gear and matchmaking perspective.

I have literally made extensive instructional videos detailing how someone with no gear can contribute effectively in a match.

Does this show a disconnect with the new player experience?

I was not good when I was new. I was frequently blown up. I hated it, I did not enjoy being blown up or being prevented from contributing to my team's success. I decided that the solution was to learn why I was being blown up, then practice the skills that would enable me to avoid being blown up.

Quote: Originally Posted by AlrikFassbauer View Post
I see this disconnect here as well. Both in PvE and in PvP. People rant about "bads" not knowing what to do - with in PvE even sometimes forgetting that certain skills, which the ranters take for granted, and not received until a certain level.
Or Newbies simply needing some time to learn.
You are assuming good faith efforts on the part of all players to learn the game. There are a significant number of 'players' in present-day GSF matches who have no interest in learning. They are there because GSF is an efficient vehicle for gaining CXP, and even if they just go AFK and wait out the match, they will get their points.

GSF undoubtedly needs better in-game tutorial materials, but the players who actually want to succeed can overcome that with a little effort and direction to the right resources.

- Despon

Verain's Avatar


Verain
08.20.2017 , 11:54 AM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by AlrikFassbauer View Post
I don't think you understood me.
is that even possible

Quote: Originally Posted by AlrikFassbauer View Post
To get killed by Gunships isn't nice for those who don't know how Gunships work.
It should have a salutary effect on their desire to understand what is going on besides directly under their nose. You were helping them learn!

Quote: Originally Posted by AlrikFassbauer View Post
Then why did they rant against me and the Gunships in that match, then ?
I know this sounds a bit novel, but hear me out: players will whine when you beat them.
They will do so with whatever tools are available. They will weaponize words to try to make you feel bad, because they aren't emotionally mature enough to handle a loss, and they want you to feel bad too. They will blame game balance, premades, ship requisition, component balance, that you've practiced more than them, literally anything they can pick up and use as a cudgel.

That doesn't mean that the game is perfectly balanced, or that matchmaker is perfect, or that double premades are a delight to fly against. It does mean that you need to put into context what they are saying instead of parsing it literally and mostly uncritically. I've been soundly beaten across a zillion matches in a zillion different video games, and the only times I can recall logging over to complain to the other person was when they were in some manner of ToS violation (aka actually and really cheating, not just overperforming, and that has never happened to me in any of SWTOR). While you can't control what offends other people, their offense-taking is often just another weapon deployed in a lifelong or at least gamelong war to get their way.

I bet their entire team didn't log over and cry about the fact that you contributed meaningfully in a game, I bet it was a few people who have been conditioned that they can get their way by creating negative emotions in others.

Don't be controlled by them, deliver them railslugs at high velocity. Or whatever it is you can do to help the team. If you were on a bomber, they'd complain that you are playing a no skill ship that they can't even get close to, fight like a man. If you were on a scout and hunting them down like blimps, they'd complain that you need a ship with a good turning rate and cooldowns to be good. We've had people walk into this forum and complain about strike fighters because missile locks are too good. There's literally no limit as to what people will complain about.

Just say vae victus and ignore them if it bothers you.
"The most despicable person on the GSF forum."

SeCKSEgai's Avatar


SeCKSEgai
08.20.2017 , 02:25 PM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by AlrikFassbauer View Post

I don't know where this comes from, but it is everywhere : The higher skilled people become, for example in RL jobs, the more they forget the problems they had as newcomers. This phenomenon is everywhere. It seems to be like some sort of upgrading the own memory, which includes orgetting past experiences - and especially bad experiences, in which they were the "bads" themselves.

I see this disconnect here as well. Both in PvE and in PvP. People rant about "bads" not knowing what to do - with in PvE even sometimes forgetting that certain skills, which the ranters take for granted, and not received until a certain level.
Or Newbies simply needing some time to learn.
This is basically why I've bothered posting in the GSF forums the past few days. I don't get upset at the new folk who can't be expected to be fully competent from the get go, there's a huge learning curve and "gearing" deficit. On the other hand, I do see vets as at least partially culpable. We're already aware that GSF hasn't been popular for some time and that it's community is not particularly large. While some may disagree, I'd argue that we lose most new potential pilots in their first few matches.

I would even go as far to say that I don't enjoy the majority of my matches. It's pretty hard to convince new people how "great" GSF is when you're not even convinced yourself. However, its those even and competitive matches I enjoy, it's like completing an hm or nim raid the first time and winning a piece of gear to boot.

Last night I got excited as I saw a lot of familiar names on both sides. Despite it ending in our defeat, I was still happy and wanted more. But that was it, just one match and people had left. The night before there were a handful of us hoping for a pop fairly late. Luckily someone on the other side was eventually able to put together some people and we got two pops. My side lost both, but my side put up quite the fight and made them earn each win.

I have never forgotten what it was like to be that newbie who rarely had a good time in GSF. I just wish more of us remembered so there would be even more of us now.
Réiyn - Maryss - Rölánd - Monéy - Retrocide - Reiyñ

Rélentless - Reíyn - Rölañd - Tàtiana