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Discussion Topic: Game Update 5.4 and the Next Roadmap

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Discussion Topic: Game Update 5.4 and the Next Roadmap
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DarthSpuds's Avatar


DarthSpuds
07.29.2017 , 06:40 AM | #711
Quote: Originally Posted by KeithKanneg View Post
We did read the whole thread and remember we didn't offer that as an option as progression is still part of PvP. Moving Bolster to 250 virtually eliminates the need to get gear and reduces the value for those who have earned Tier 4 pieces.

The right answer is we need to resolve the PvP gearing issues, so Bolster gets removed as a central issue.

Keith---
But the PvP players want a PvP paradigm where Skill is the determining factor.
The ONLY way to do that is to make Gear as near to irrelevant as is mechanically possible.

And that is 100% antithetical to your concept of "Gear Progression" as a part of PvP.

You can have A) Skill Based PvP, OR you can have B) Gear Progression Based PvP, you can't have both.

Your customers have told you they want A, and you have half said "No, you're getting B".

So you "read" the whole thread, but didn't actually take on board what was said.

I understand - you want there to be Gear Progression because that is a useful (from Bioware's PoV) proxy term for "Grind" - the continual rinse-repeating of already stale content just to get back to the same relative power level we were BEFORE the last content patch.

I have no problem with a grind to "get more powerful", but a grind to "get back to being as powerful as I was 1 year ago" is - frankly - insulting to our intelligence and to our prior efforts.


All The Best
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KeithKanneg's Avatar


KeithKanneg
07.29.2017 , 06:45 AM | #712 Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread. Next  
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthDymond View Post
Heaven forbid game designers actually be in charge of the design for their game.

Developers should take player feedback into account as one factor --and an important factor at that-- that goes into their decision-making process for the game. But it is never going to be the only factor. Doing exactly what the players say is both practically impossible (so many different players want so many different things, there is no way they have the resources to implement them all at once) and logically impossible (some players want [X] and some players explicitly want [NOT X]). The playerbase isn't some monolith with a singular vision for the game anyway.

So sometimes they're going to look at player feedback and say "Hey, this player feedback has an idea we like that we can fully implement" (e.g. removing training costs).

Sometimes they're going to look at player feedback and say "Hey, this feedback has an idea we like, but we just don't have the resources to implement it right now, we'll keep it in mind for later" (e.g. everything they add to their "wall of crazy").

Sometimes they're going to look at feedback and say "Hey, we have one idea for how this should be, players are telling us they want something different, we'll try to meet them half-way" (e.g. taking their idea for GC to be the entirety of end-game gearing, players' feedback that it should be removed completely, and compromising by bringing back gear drops and gear currencies and moving GC to a supplemental role in gearing up).

Sometimes they're going to look at feedback and say "Hey, that's just not something that jibes with our vision for the game, so we're not going to do that."

IMO that's exactly the way designers should go about their game development, and it seems to be something BW is doing.
You nailed it.

Even though it may not be apparent, I send so many of your suggestions to the Dev Team. We discuss them, debate them, then if we like something, we determine the effort, and decide when to do it. Keep in mind, we have to work to a schedule to ensure we deliver all agreed upon parts at the right time.

What may seem a simple change could very well add weeks of not just Development time, but Engineering, QA, reschedule of VO recordings, localization, and more. Although I'm notorious about asking for changes mid-stream, we desperately try not to, as it can impact everyone and cause schedule delays.

--Keith-
ps...sorry for all the posts seemingly all at once. We've been heads down this past week on various planning activities (including the Roadmap update) and realized we hadn't kept you apprised.
Keith Kanneg | Game Producer
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DarthZaul's Avatar


DarthZaul
07.29.2017 , 06:49 AM | #713
Nice that they are finally making credits legacy wide although they will probably take about a year to do it.

Thruine's Avatar


Thruine
07.29.2017 , 06:52 AM | #714
I think the solution for the credit fears is to just add a credit tab to the legacy bank. You deposit the amount you want to save and done. I personally wouldn't mind a cap being in place. It certainly would drive prices on GTN down to that point at least. I expect them to not do this since people will probably stop buying packs if they knew they couldn't sell the items for a nice amount. Its just everything on the GTN is being affected by this inflation to the point even the simplest crafted item goes for such outrageous prices. I see no end to these prices which makes the packs even more appealing to those lacking funds. So the worse the economy is, the more the packs probably sell for. I've just decided being self sufficient makes the most sense and eventually we'll have a GTN where just pack items are traded.

I think if they make it so the currency tab can have items removed to take inventory spots then hopefully all these difference rep items (such as bounty certs) can kept there or traded which I'd be very pleased with. I have this stuff taking up space that is really currency. Nice its tradable but nicer to have it act like a currency and go into its tab.

I am hoping this will eventually lead to all things legacy wide become non-inventory taking space. I loved the way EQ2 did appearance gear. You add the item to you appearance gear tab, it removes from inventory and becomes another drop down item for that slot. No more stamping items in place then having to deal with them. Everyone starts out with 20 open choices to choose for each slot and you can buy more with CC. If they take those that have bought multiple tabs, they expand their choices for those slots. It saves time since you don't have to locate the item, stamp it then remove the item to wherever you decide to place it. You just pick from the drop down any time you want to change something. Of course they still work the old way.

I'm still confused about this key business. For the stronghold you have to have the key to purchase and the having the key has the reduced price. But doesn't that mean there's nothing to reduce it from if you can't purchase it without the key or do you get the key the first run and the additional runs is what reduces the price? That's where its still muddy.

Jdast's Avatar


Jdast
07.29.2017 , 06:59 AM | #715
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSpuds View Post
But the PvP players want a PvP paradigm where Skill is the determining factor.
The ONLY way to do that is to make Gear as near to irrelevant as is mechanically possible.

And that is 100% antithetical to your concept of "Gear Progression" as a part of PvP.

You can have A) Skill Based PvP, OR you can have B) Gear Progression Based PvP, you can't have both.

Your customers have told you they want A, and you have half said "No, you're getting B".

So you "read" the whole thread, but didn't actually take on board what was said.

I understand - you want there to be Gear Progression because that is a useful (from Bioware's PoV) proxy term for "Grind" - the continual rinse-repeating of already stale content just to get back to the same relative power level we were BEFORE the last content patch.

I have no problem with a grind to "get more powerful", but a grind to "get back to being as powerful as I was 1 year ago" is - frankly - insulting to our intelligence and to our prior efforts.


All The Best
One annoying thing on forums is when people offer advice, find out it was rejected, and accuse the devs of "not listening." It's entirely possible they listened, read what you wrote -- and, wait for it, wait for it -- disagree. And, FYI, with respect to the subject at hand, there has been disagreement in every single PvP thread I've read on these boards (as there has been on every MMO PvP thread).

With that said, I also don't believe the situation is as dichotomous as you say; i.e., it can only be skill or gear-based, it can't be both. Having gear as incentive encourages participation and some people like chasing the carrot. Yes, there will be the Mandalorian types who love just the thrill of the hunt and would be fine with no rewards -- as in -- the test of your skills is reward enough. But understand that not all of us share that bloodthirsty bloodlust -- we like being rewarded with something more tangible.

The question is the level of the gap and the pace of the grind. Personally, I would put bolster at 244, but that's just me. As for the rate of accrual and legacy-wide aspects of UCs, it appears that is being addressed, though the devil is obviously in the details.

TL;DR: Opinions on how bolster and gearing should work in PvP vary (shock!)

Dasty

Glower's Avatar


Glower
07.29.2017 , 07:02 AM | #716
Quote: Originally Posted by KeithKanneg View Post
We did read the whole thread and remember we didn't offer that as an option as progression is still part of PvP. Moving Bolster to 250 virtually eliminates the need to get gear and reduces the value for those who have earned Tier 4 pieces.

The right answer is we need to resolve the PvP gearing issues, so Bolster gets removed as a central issue.

Keith---
Fairly cheap 3.0 gear and really cheap 4.0 PvP gear was able to solve it - easier to farm and it was instanced from PvE gearing.

But suddenly you needed half-year long "gear progression" in PvP and literally killed alt-friendly system from 2.0-4.0...
SWTOR goes F2P: http://i.imgur.com/1962X.jpg; Dec 2016, livestream: "RNG is exciting"
A: "They’d love to do that at some point, but technically very challenging and unlikely to happen in the near future." (c)
PvP FAQ, A: "We have no plans at this time" (c)

casirabit's Avatar


casirabit
07.29.2017 , 07:26 AM | #717
Quote: Originally Posted by VirtualMorrigan View Post
same old, same old. You word it more prettily than your predecessor, but the message is always the same. "We know what is right and you WILL enjoy it, we don't need to hear your opinion and don't care how it impacts you, shut up and pay packs."

Oh, and I forgot, the "Something great is coming but I can't talk about it yet."

We'll see if it was "the right call". I happen to disagree. Ignoring your customers because you think you know better may be a time-honoured Bioware tradition but I think the time where you could afford that attitude is way, way past.
They do listen to us, but sometimes what we say isn't always right. There are various opinions on what they should and shouldn't. do.

I been here long enough to have lived through nerfs on my favorite character (sawbones) and been able to adjust and still able to play my sawbones. I have yet to not be able to play any of my toons because of changes they make to a character.

People have been complaining about the lightning spec sorceress for a long time and yet I have not had any problems with mine, even in operations. Sure I don't do pvp but that is one aspect of the game, not the entire game as someone want to make it seem like.

I have spoken to a friend of mine, whose opinion I respect and trust, and he agreed that the healing on the sorceress/sage is a bit too much. I have given his feedback since he doesn't come to the forums.

Customers are not always right, no matter what they want to believe. There are times that a customer is wrong but they can be stubborn and not admit that because they want what they want and don't take into consideration what is actually beneficial to more than just them.

That is the main problem here, each person wants something different but yet each of us think what we want is more important than someone else that is not true. The devs have to go through everything we may suggest and see if it will work but they have to consider the whole picture, not just our view.
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EzMaCx's Avatar


EzMaCx
07.29.2017 , 07:29 AM | #718
This is the last chance for me, if they don't do anything about PT tanks being squishy in pve and pvp lacking DCD's i'm done with swtor.

Tsillah's Avatar


Tsillah
07.29.2017 , 07:31 AM | #719
Quote: Originally Posted by KeithKanneg View Post
We did read the whole thread and remember we didn't offer that as an option as progression is still part of PvP. Moving Bolster to 250 virtually eliminates the need to get gear and reduces the value for those who have earned Tier 4 pieces.

The right answer is we need to resolve the PvP gearing issues, so Bolster gets removed as a central issue.

Keith---
I think that's only part of the answer. The other part being the point that in unranked premades can easily destroy the fun of more casual pvp'ers and new players. Gear won't fix that. Also because ranked is just 4v4 I can imagine that the more serious pvp'ers can get really bored there and want to have an alternative. So they go in groups and take over unranked as it pleases them.

The pvp set up just doesn't have a way to separate more casual/average players from the ones who pwn it.

Would it really be a problem to take the group option away from unranked or something in that direction?
Goodbye all, it's been fun. Time for me to move on (it's ok to cheer ).

Tsillah's Avatar


Tsillah
07.29.2017 , 07:39 AM | #720
Quote: Originally Posted by KeithKanneg View Post
Actually, we do care about all of our players. That's why we will address currencies and content access for all players this year, too.

---Keith
Knowing is caring. So the question is, how well do you know your customers? I don't presume to know, it's not a judgment but things like Galactic Command do make me wonder.

I do believe however that you look at the comments and take them into consideration. And I certainly don't expect you to act on everything that is being said here.

In the end I suppose that there are various aspects of this game that need help and it's a little bit of a "where to begin?" situation.

Whether it's Operations, FPs, stories, companions, Warzones, GSF, Strongholds or whatever this game offers, I think that every area of the game has been suffering for the last few years for a variety of reasons.

It's unfair to expect miracles at this stage but I hope that there will be some clearer light at the end of the tunnel for all these things within not too long a time.

There are two things that really made me angry: Galactic Command and Cartel Packs. I won't repeat specifics here, but at least you did something about Galactic Command. The one thing that is missing for me is a real sense of you guys investing into the game again instead of sitting back and lettting the cartel coin gambling flow. That may not be a fair representation but can you see why people might get that feeling?
Goodbye all, it's been fun. Time for me to move on (it's ok to cheer ).