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GSF Discussion: Friction Points

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
GSF Discussion: Friction Points
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Rho-zhen's Avatar


Rho-zhen
07.10.2017 , 09:18 AM | #221
GSF.. issues I see that could be addressed. 1] Learning curve might be offset by allowing players to use any ship/weapons load out in tutorial or at least the user's collected ships. Secondary weaps seem to be the hang up for most.. IE lock on times & targeting methods. 2] I have inconsistent braking function.. sometimes it stops.. others it will speed up then coaster brake stop.. tap or hold key don't seem to matter. After that of course I'd like to see better gimbles [review old MS "freelancer" flight mechanics for instance]. 3] Fix the paint jobs.. ie republic scout. 4] One or two more battle scenarios.. a single faction & a dual faction could be nice. Explore the use of NPC ships/characters to fill in faction rosters during light queue times. Explore concept of "uprising" type battle scenario..players attack a fleet detachment, for instance. 5] For marketing purposes, of course a few more ships available for CC's.. one new design of each class & faction for instance. That's all I can think of at the moment. Shout back if you need to & thanks.

TUXs's Avatar


TUXs
07.10.2017 , 09:28 AM | #222
1) Being character only hurts casual player participation. Make a Legacy wide option.
2) Bombers ruined GSF for me. I played daily prior to Bombers being added - now, I play, at best, once a month, usually less. Limit them to only certain maps or game types...in objective based arenas, I think they have too much dominance.
3) Players have ruined GSF for themselves. New players don't even have a chance to learn anything before being destroyed. Experience is the biggest factor in GSF, and I appreciate that, but new players just don't have a hope.
4) Lack of development. No new maps or game types in years.

I'd love a reason to enjoy GSF again, but I just can't given the current state of the game. I blame bombers, but I know it's not the only factor.
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BretHoffman's Avatar


BretHoffman
07.10.2017 , 10:20 AM | #223 This is the last staff post in this thread.  
Hey there folks! My name is Bret Hoffman and I am a Senior Designer on SWTOR and one of the devs who originally worked on GSF. I wanted to thank you all for your in-depth and well thought out responses. Keep it coming! We are definitely reading and collating all the feedback in this thread as well as the other two we created.

Keep that feedback coming in, and, once again, thanks for your thoughts!

Happy hunting pilots!

caederon's Avatar


caederon
07.10.2017 , 10:34 AM | #224
Quote: Originally Posted by TUXs View Post
2) Bombers ruined GSF for me. I played daily prior to Bombers being added - now, I play, at best, once a month, usually less. Limit them to only certain maps or game types...in objective based arenas, I think they have too much dominance.
3) Players have ruined GSF for themselves. New players don't even have a chance to learn anything before being destroyed. Experience is the biggest factor in GSF, and I appreciate that, but new players just don't have a hope.
Addressing your points in reverse order... new players do have it rough, but there is plenty of hope available to them if they seek out the knowledge that will enable them to compete. This knowledge should be delivered in game, and in a properly developed game there would be some means to gradually allow people to build up their skills. Even without that, though, resources exist to help new players and on populous servers, those players are facing off against people roughly in their experience bracket. Check out my Stock Ship experiment for some more on this.

Most of us who are GSF veteran pilots were thrown into the fire just like you, and in a more lethal era of GSF where it was (believe it or not) even harsher on new pilots. If you can accept that it is possible to become skilled and competitive in GSF through patience and practice, then it should be no real problem to seek some outside instruction in the absence of in-game materials... and I very much hope the devs dramatically increase the quantity and quality of in-game tutorials for GSF pilots.

To your first friction point: bombers are a problem solved through knowledge and application of the techniques necessary to remove them. The problem comes in when the majority of a team doesn't have the necessary understanding of the situation to deal. This is, again, an issue with knowledge distribution and application.

If you were playing Rock, Paper, Scissors, and you were never told there was Paper, so you figured you just had Rock and Scissors and that's it... it'd be a pretty frustrating game where you frequently lose once your opponents realize you don't know there's also Paper. Is the solution to remove Rock? Or to let the uninformed know that Paper is part of the game, and that it counters Rock?

Proper tutorial resources would solve many of the problems reported in this thread.

- Despon

OneHit's Avatar


OneHit
07.10.2017 , 10:38 AM | #225
Quote: Originally Posted by BretHoffman View Post
Hey there folks! My name is Bret Hoffman and I am a Senior Designer on SWTOR and one of the devs who originally worked on GSF. I wanted to thank you all for your in-depth and well thought out responses. Keep it coming! We are definitely reading and collating all the feedback in this thread as well as the other two we created.

Keep that feedback coming in, and, once again, thanks for your thoughts!

Happy hunting pilots!
Oh just wondering what you been up too for the last few years? :P

dscount's Avatar


dscount
07.10.2017 , 10:58 AM | #226
Quote: Originally Posted by BretHoffman View Post
Hey there folks! My name is Bret Hoffman and I am a Senior Designer on SWTOR and one of the devs who originally worked on GSF. I wanted to thank you all for your in-depth and well thought out responses. Keep it coming! We are definitely reading and collating all the feedback in this thread as well as the other two we created.

Keep that feedback coming in, and, once again, thanks for your thoughts!

Happy hunting pilots!
MAKE more COOL MAPS with more nodes! Thanks for popping into the Forums Bret!
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TUXs's Avatar


TUXs
07.10.2017 , 11:06 AM | #227
Quote: Originally Posted by caederon View Post
Addressing your points in reverse order... new players do have it rough, but there is plenty of hope available to them if they seek out the knowledge that will enable them to compete. This knowledge should be delivered in game, and in a properly developed game there would be some means to gradually allow people to build up their skills. Even without that, though, resources exist to help new players and on populous servers, those players are facing off against people roughly in their experience bracket. Check out my Stock Ship experiment for some more on this.

Most of us who are GSF veteran pilots were thrown into the fire just like you, and in a more lethal era of GSF where it was (believe it or not) even harsher on new pilots. If you can accept that it is possible to become skilled and competitive in GSF through patience and practice, then it should be no real problem to seek some outside instruction in the absence of in-game materials... and I very much hope the devs dramatically increase the quantity and quality of in-game tutorials for GSF pilots.

To your first friction point: bombers are a problem solved through knowledge and application of the techniques necessary to remove them. The problem comes in when the majority of a team doesn't have the necessary understanding of the situation to deal. This is, again, an issue with knowledge distribution and application.

If you were playing Rock, Paper, Scissors, and you were never told there was Paper, so you figured you just had Rock and Scissors and that's it... it'd be a pretty frustrating game where you frequently lose once your opponents realize you don't know there's also Paper. Is the solution to remove Rock? Or to let the uninformed know that Paper is part of the game, and that it counters Rock?

Proper tutorial resources would solve many of the problems reported in this thread.

- Despon
I played GSF daily when it came out...I played it for months after Bombers were released...Bombers ruined the fun for me. Period. It's not a knowledge issue, it's not a lack of understanding how to counter them...it's that they COMPLETELY changed what I loved about GSF and made it suck for me. That's my bottom line. Bombers killed the fun I had in GSF...and I am not alone.

Also...what are you expecting a new player to do exactly? Shouldn't joining a match and slowly progressing be possible without seeking knowledge? I don't mean they should be blindingly ignorant, but how much do you really expect someone trying it out to invest? This is a game...it needs to be fun from day-1, not after investing weeks into reading and asking questions...GSF fails at that right now. Right now, it's FRUSTRATING and un-fun for a new player...something needs to change.

I appreciate all your replies and love the feedback you're giving, so please don't take any of my comments as attacks on you or your opinions, I'm simply trying to tell you where my own frustrations are at with GSF and where I see the issues with it right now.
All warfare is based on deception If his forces are united, separate them If you are far from the enemy, make him believe you are near A leader leads by example not by force
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Greezt's Avatar


Greezt
07.10.2017 , 11:39 AM | #228
Quote: Originally Posted by TUXs View Post
I played GSF daily when it came out...I played it for months after Bombers were released...Bombers ruined the fun for me. Period. It's not a knowledge issue, it's not a lack of understanding how to counter them...it's that they COMPLETELY changed what I loved about GSF and made it suck for me. That's my bottom line. Bombers killed the fun I had in GSF...and I am not alone.
There are plenty of players who feel the opposite of course, but considering this is your opinion (and others probably agree with you) that's that. However, I feel that stating it is akin to telling the devs that a certain role in the ground game (say tanks) is ruining it for you. Nice to know, but hard to act upon.

Quote: Originally Posted by TUXs View Post
Also...what are you expecting a new player to do exactly? Shouldn't joining a match and slowly progressing be possible without seeking knowledge? I don't mean they should be blindingly ignorant, but how much do you really expect someone trying it out to invest? This is a game...it needs to be fun from day-1, not after investing weeks into reading and asking questions...GSF fails at that right now. Right now, it's FRUSTRATING and un-fun for a new player...something needs to change.
With this I agree. Tooltips could be clearer, the tutorial could explain game mechanics better (or at all), matchmaker could use a whole lot of improvement to not set up someone with 5 matches accountwide against someone with 4000. I dislike the concept of players having to search for info, at least for basic stuff. Once you understand the game I'd still expect there to be threads breaking the metagame down, and people will look for them to learn advanced play, but basic things such as evasion and damage reduction should be clear from the game.

IanArgent's Avatar


IanArgent
07.10.2017 , 11:49 AM | #229
Couple of thoughts from someone who has always been a casual GSFer in re bombers, and, in a way, strike fighters

First, having seen and played bombers for a bit now, I like them; because of the RPS dynamic that appears to be the intended relationship: Scout>Gunship>Bomber>Scout. If anything, that cycle needs to be more emphasized mechanically and tutorially; with each class being optimized to its role, and each chip within the class being tuned towards a facet of that role. As it is today, the Scout and the Gunship feel tuned against each other as melee vs ranged classes, with the Bomber sitting out off to the side a bit with weaker inbound and outbound lines in the cycle.

Which brings me to the second thought I've been having: What's the role of the Strike? If you tighten the specialization to role of the Scout/Gunship/Bomber triad (Dogfighting, Wide Area Denial, Point Defense/Base Support), you open the field for a JOAT role - where a Strike isn't as good a dogfighter as the Scout, isn't as good at Wide Area Denial as the Gunship, and isn't as good at Support/Point Defense as the bomber, but it can do any of them at need, and rapidly switching, so it can switch between dogfighting the Gunship, sniping the Bomber, and bombing the Scout; but not as well as the hard counter to each; and if it's caught out in the wrong range, the Scout can beat it in a dogfight, the Gunship can snipe it from outside its range, and the Bomber can drone and mine it to death.
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Quote: Originally Posted by TUXs View Post
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caederon's Avatar


caederon
07.10.2017 , 11:55 AM | #230
Quote: Originally Posted by TUXs View Post
Also...what are you expecting a new player to do exactly? Shouldn't joining a match and slowly progressing be possible without seeking knowledge? I don't mean they should be blindingly ignorant, but how much do you really expect someone trying it out to invest? This is a game...it needs to be fun from day-1, not after investing weeks into reading and asking questions...GSF fails at that right now. Right now, it's FRUSTRATING and un-fun for a new player...something needs to change.
It is unquestionably part of the problem right now that people are blindingly ignorant of game mechanics when they enter GSF. I'd say that at least a quarter of matches I have played recently (and I play frequently, on numerous servers) wind up with three or more people shooting at under 5%. So, they don't know how to aim, what the range on their guns is, that their guns have a range, etc. the most basic of basics... let alone stuff like tracking penalty or that you're more likely to hit in the 'sweet spot' of a weapon's range than at the extremes. I've been in a few matches lately where eight out of sixteen people had a sub-10% shooting percentage.

Let that sink in for a moment - half of all the players in a match couldn't land even 10% of their shots.

You don't have to invest weeks into learning the basic operations of the game. Even the existing tutorial covers some issues people seem to frequently not understand, but it's presented in such an impenetrable and clunky way that people don't absorb it or skip it entirely.

Watching the three Beginners Start Here videos on my GSF School YouTube channel would take someone around 15 minutes, and they contain a wealth of instruction that is presented in (hopefully) a very accessible way. This sort of instruction should come from within the game, and I very much hope it will at some point, but in the interim, it exists and I think fifteen minutes is hardly a huge investment of time. I deliberately kept them short and condensed the information as much as possible because I know people won't spend a lot of time.

It is very unfortunate that on many low population servers, the matchmaking problems are magnified to a huge degree. A single veteran, even in stock ships with no upgrades, can wreck a whole team of new players because the veteran pilot knows what they are doing, and the new pilots are thrown into a relatively complex system without enough information (or low-stakes training time) to have a clue.

Quote: Originally Posted by TUXs View Post
I don't mean they should be blindingly ignorant, but how much do you really expect someone trying it out to invest?
Just to reiterate, I hope that they will invest....
Movement 101 (2:44)
Weapons 101 (4:17)
Survival 101 (5:24)
...12m 25s

GSF is a deep enough game that to succeed, you need to put in a little effort. If I was designing it from scratch, I'd have implemented a system where players start with a simpler, more restricted set of components playing against people who are also in those ships... I'd have made sure the beginner components aren't the worst possible ones to have in the game... and I'd have implemented a tutorial that doesn't make people want to skip or turn it off immediately. This all presupposes that there are enough players around to make matches possible in the 'new player, simple ship' bracket. Other games have pitted new pilots against bots for a period of time until they adjust to the controls.

SWTOR's engine and economic concerns may prohibit PvE style GSF, but even something as simple as allowing a group to queue into a practice arena similar to the tutorial map, where there is no timer and no effect on the pilot's record, would be massively helpful for those of us who try to teach people the game... or even for someone to solo queue into and just fly around... which, incidentally, is what I recommend people do with the tutorial map. Grit your teeth and run it through normally once, then run it again but ignore the instruction text and just practice flying around. Your ship is indestructible, you can maneuver without fear of anything except occasionally getting stuck inside an object's geometry if you bounce off it wrong.

- Despon