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STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Feedback / Criticism and the Forums
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CrazyCT's Avatar


CrazyCT
07.02.2017 , 12:04 PM | #61
Quote: Originally Posted by ivanhedgehog View Post
Is that why Luke killed his father? Wait, it seems like it may not be all black and white after all.
But.....Luke didn't kill his father. He refused to kill him and threw away his lightsaber.
"An argument must have opposition if it is to prove itself."
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Once managed to use "Obfuscate" in a sentence. Allegedly sounds like.....Robbie Williams?

ivanhedgehog's Avatar


ivanhedgehog
07.02.2017 , 01:02 PM | #62
Quote: Originally Posted by CrazyCT View Post
But.....Luke didn't kill his father. He refused to kill him and threw away his lightsaber.
You mean star wars doesnt teach us that jedi kill every sith they see?? That maybe the universe is mor ecomplicated than that?

CrazyCT's Avatar


CrazyCT
07.02.2017 , 01:04 PM | #63
Quote: Originally Posted by ivanhedgehog View Post
You mean star wars doesnt teach us that jedi kill every sith they see?? That maybe the universe is mor ecomplicated than that?
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes" - I heard that somewhere.
"An argument must have opposition if it is to prove itself."
Queen of the White Knights <==== Click to pay tribute to your Queen
Once managed to use "Obfuscate" in a sentence. Allegedly sounds like.....Robbie Williams?

casirabit's Avatar


casirabit
07.02.2017 , 01:40 PM | #64
Quote: Originally Posted by CrazyCT View Post
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes" - I heard that somewhere.
Hehe Obi-Wan said that to Anakin on Mustafar.

But I would love to combine Empire and Republic guilds, especially for those of us that don't do pvp. I came from SWG where guilds were multi-factions and able to do things together (other than pvp and the Hoth instance) so that is something my guild kind of misses.
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MeNaCe-NZ's Avatar


MeNaCe-NZ
07.02.2017 , 02:37 PM | #65
Quote: Originally Posted by ZionHalcyon View Post
I just want to point out that well true that it is hard to decipher tone at times from a forum post or words, it is not true that you can never decipher tone.

The reason I said tone matters is because all too often on these forums, you have a certain group of people who talk down to others stating their opinions. That is a point in time where tone can certainly be seen in the text.

Let me be perfectly crystal clear: when I say talking down to others I do not mean disagreeing with their opinion. When I say talking down to others I mean not putting forth any sort of a rebuttal against someone else's opinion but instead of talking as if that person who made the opinion is either stupid or crazy or ignorant or just a jerk.

It's a very slick way people use to troll in these forms without technically violating the terms of service.

The reason I brought up tone is because I specifically think that these types of posts need to be shut down as they are toxic for the community, do nothing to encourage further debate or conversation, providing zero useful feedback, and only serve to try to enforce groupthink.
Devil's advocate ...

Quote:
The reason I brought up tone is because I specifically think that these types of posts need to be shut down as they are toxic for the community,
Hypothetically ...

YOU don't like my tone? YOU are calling me toxic?! Well <insert counter rant here>

Point above is how a post is received is in the eye of the beholder. It's not good that any of us sit here and play judge and jury as to what could be considered toxic or not when dealing with "tone" - there are rules against actual toxic insults so we have to trust mods to do their jobs. Once we start making posts defaming others posts as being toxic or poor tone all we are doing is being just as bad and inflaming situations further.

LordTurin's Avatar


LordTurin
07.02.2017 , 03:11 PM | #66
Quote: Originally Posted by ivanhedgehog View Post
Is that why Luke killed his father? Wait, it seems like it may not be all black and white after all.
Quote: Originally Posted by CrazyCT View Post
But.....Luke didn't kill his father. He refused to kill him and threw away his lightsaber.
and

Quote: Originally Posted by CrazyCT View Post
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes" - I heard that somewhere.
Quote: Originally Posted by casirabit View Post
Hehe Obi-Wan said that to Anakin on Mustafar.

But I would love to combine Empire and Republic guilds, especially for those of us that don't do pvp. I came from SWG where guilds were multi-factions and able to do things together (other than pvp and the Hoth instance) so that is something my guild kind of misses.
This posts are exactly why you cannot try to base things on tone when it is just text. Reading these, it was clear to me that the original posts were meant in a sarcastic manner, but the responses by CrazyCT and casirabit obviously thought they were serious, and so responded as such (I could be wrong, and they ops could have been serious, or the responses could have been sarcastic and I'm missing understanding them, but obviously someone is making a mistake here).

I'm not saying people should not say sarcastic things, the forums would be pretty boring in that case, and usually you can make it pretty obvious (tossing the word kappa in there helps, means "this statement should be taken sarcastically" for those who don't know, or saying "oh wait..."), but regardless simply assuming someone will understand the tone that I meant is a mistake.

I once had a raid squad memeber who couldn't use his microphone, but would still like to joke around., Unfortunately, since he was not speaking, his "jokes" could come across as pretty mean. If you say in voice to the guy who got the highest parse "what a scrub" or "l2p" because he got 9k dps instead of the 9.2 he got last week in a very sarcastic voice, the recipient of the joke will laugh and move along. You do it via ops chat though, and it can come across as rude and condescending, even if you didn't mean it that way.

That being said, there is also no reason to baby someone, either on the forums or in game either. Telling someone "your dps is too low" is not an insult if you just hit enrage, and they pulled 3k dps and everyone else in the group pulled 7k, even if they take it that way. Telling them "you suck and should uninstall the game" is crossing the line. Fortunately, there are report mechanics both in game and on the forums, so if you feel like someone stepped over the line, there is a way to get redress.

As an aside, since some people were saying we aren't allowed to criticize BW here, it would be interesting to know whether a person who got a forum vacation got it due to another player reporting it, or BW doing it on their own. I would bet that most are from other players reporting it and bring it to BWs attention first (for example, saying "the story sucked and they should fire all the writers" would be something that would actually bother other players, especially those who did like the story, so I would not be surprised if that is how it came about"). Maybe it would be helpful if BW actually informed the receipient, as if it came to BWs knowledge due to other players reporting it, they would probably not be quite as upset at BW (though maybe more upset at other players, which is probably not an improvement...) meh, probably not gonna happen.

TLDR: Be very careful with what you write on a forum. Tone is incredibly difficult to discern via text, so if you aren't sure if someone will take it as an insult, the answer is probably that yes, they will.
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Rekar's Avatar


Rekar
07.02.2017 , 03:15 PM | #67
Go back to Imp Vs Pub, not this eternal throne garbage.

KeithKanneg's Avatar


KeithKanneg
07.02.2017 , 03:27 PM | #68 This is the last staff post in this thread.  
Hey everyone,
I've stared at my comments and your reactions, read every post in this thread, and came to realize how wrong I was yesterday for making that post. I'd love to chalk it up as a newb action, but that'd just be an excuse for underestimating the impact from our words, our comments, our reactions, and for the time being, especially mine.

I just finished the articles recommended by Deewe:
Quote: Originally Posted by Deewe View Post
*snip*
If I may I'd invite you to read the following article from Raph Koster (for those unaware, lead designer on SWG) on getting criticism.
*snip*
I really liked the outline of the Criticism article and for those who haven't had a chance to read it, here's the bullets:
  • Everyone who dislikes your work is right
  • The criticism that is useful is that which helps you do it better
  • Nothing’s perfect
  • You often have to choose between your ideals and your message
  • You have to dig to get the gold
  • Good feedback is detailed
  • People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous
  • Someone asked for feedback will always find something wrong
  • Good work may not have an audience
  • Any feedback that comes with suggestions for improvement is awesome
  • If you agree with the criticism, say “thank you.” If you disagree, say “fair enough,” and “thank you"
  • You are not your work

It's a great guide for me and the entire SWTOR Team and I'll do my very best to ensure all of us follow the advice offered.

What I find the most humbling is the outreach from many of you, in these forums, and in personal messages. You've told me how you feel and provided me with insightful guidance and suggestions for the future. You didn't lash out, as I honestly believe everyone knows I was not trying to be vindictive or suggest you cannot criticize me or the Dev Team. Yet, that's exactly how I came across, and I apologize both for my comments, but also for the thought processes that led me down that path.

Thank you for your continued patience with me and I promise to continue making mistakes while learning from them and doing what I can to make things better.

Respectfully,

Keith

Keith Kanneg | Game Producer
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ImmortalLowlife's Avatar


ImmortalLowlife
07.02.2017 , 03:52 PM | #69
Quote: Originally Posted by KeithKanneg View Post
Hey everyone,
Spoiler
I apologize both for my comments, but also for the thought processes that led me down that path.

Thank you for your continued patience with me and I promise to continue making mistakes while learning from them and doing what I can to make things better.

Respectfully,

Keith

It takes a big man to admit his mistakes, and although I'm not one of the ones who took what you said the wrong way..... I got mad respect for you for this post.

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Xo-Lara's Avatar


Xo-Lara
07.02.2017 , 03:58 PM | #70
Quote: Originally Posted by KeithKanneg View Post
Hey everyone,
I've stared at my comments and your reactions, read every post in this thread, and came to realize how wrong I was yesterday for making that post. I'd love to chalk it up as a newb action, but that'd just be an excuse for underestimating the impact from our words, our comments, our reactions, and for the time being, especially mine.
I applaud your gesture since it may help, but I don't agree with it. I don't think indulging temper tantrums, whether they are based around valid criticism or not, is good for anyone. I understand that people were raised with different values, but I really think posters should find enough dignity in themselves to stop lashing out because they are frustrated.

Everyone gets frustrated, that is not an excuse to be abusive towards the dev team or fellow players, regardless of whether or not one is for or against an idea. I'm not talking about the occasional passionate slip but rather a habit of disregarding decency because a player is "angry". I believe it helps to foster an atmosphere on the forum that turns people away due to toxicity.

If one is too angry to make their case without lashing out, they are likely too angry to make a post without distracting from it with drama.

However, I will concede since its not my decision to make. Hopefully this olive branch will cool some of the anger of people that feel that the team is not doing enough to admit their mistakes.
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