Actually, when you view it plainly, it says dumping over anyone with a different viewpoint is not OK. But, I was attempting to course correct the thread, not hijack it.

 

As I stated in the Roadmap, part of opening dialog requires that we set expectations to ensure our conversations and debates remain productive. I should have already communicated the following to everyone: I completely agree with discourse, debates, and telling us about your utter dissatisfaction about something we've implemented in the game, or the way we told a story. In return, I ask for civility, commentary without the insults, and when possible, for actionable feedback.

 

This isn't about hiding behind a defensive wall, it's about treating others (not just the Dev Team), with respect and allowing them to provide their viewpoints without being mocked and mistreated. Not everyone likes to be bashed around and for many, they simply don't participate which narrows the view to just a few players. That's not healthy for our game, either.

 

I do apologize for jumping into this thread and derailing the conversation. If possible, let's agree to stop any further comments about this and get back to the purpose of the thread. How about we start up a new thread about forum decorum (yah, I know, but it rhymed) where I'll be happy to participate.

 

Please don't ever leave us, we need you here!! I'm glad you don't mind speaking up towards to community rather than staying quiet. I can learn from behaviour like this as I sometimes have a hard time too with self control and staying civil, and I should try a lot harder when going into discussions and dealing with people I do not agree with! This is a good direction for everyone. And a new thread doesn't seem like a bad idea!

Edited July 1, 2017 by Eshvara

I often feel that 5.0 is much like watching a train wreck: You know it's coming...you know it's going to be bad....but you just can't look away.

Actually, when you view it plainly, it says dumping over anyone with a different viewpoint is not OK. But, I was attempting to course correct the thread, not hijack it.

 

As I stated in the Roadmap, part of opening dialog requires that we set expectations to ensure our conversations and debates remain productive. I should have already communicated the following to everyone: I completely agree with discourse, debates, and telling us about your utter dissatisfaction about something we've implemented in the game, or the way we told a story. In return, I ask for civility, commentary without the insults, and when possible, for actionable feedback.

 

This isn't about hiding behind a defensive wall, it's about treating others (not just the Dev Team), with respect and allowing them to provide their viewpoints without being mocked and mistreated. Not everyone likes to be bashed around and for many, they simply don't participate which narrows the view to just a few players. That's not healthy for our game, either.

 

I do apologize for jumping into this thread and derailing the conversation. If possible, let's agree to stop any further comments about this and get back to the purpose of the thread. How about we start up a new thread about forum decorum (yah, I know, but it rhymed) where I'll be happy to participate.

 

Keith, you didn't notice that I wasn't the only one who read it that way I said it didn you?

 

That being said, this is where I feel like the increased communication is paying off. I do not disagree with your opinion whatsoever that those who hold an opinion should not be mocked or made to feel less than. People enjoy what they enjoy. I do think that the players need to understand this cuts across always. That means that those who are not happy with the direction of the story also should not be mocked or made to feel less than by those who disagree as well.

 

Criticism often reaches a fever pitch when there are many voices yet they feel like no one is listening. I appreciate your efforts at clarification. However I think what people want to hear is just something simple such as:

 

 

" we have heard from both the people who love and the people who strongly disliked the Knights of the Fallen Empire storyline and understand some of the concerns about the inconsistencies with the previous stories. While we cannot comment on what direction we will take our game, I want to assure the players that we will continue to absorb feedback regarding our story and make the necessary changes based on that feedback going forward to allow players to more thoroughly enjoy Star Wars the Old Republic."

 

Simple and to the point. And no deflecting whatsoever in that statement. And given the increased communication from the development team a statement like that would easily win you guys over the benefit of the doubt.

 

As far as Forum decorum goes (and yes that is fun to say), I wholly endorse your idea to start a thread and trying to get the community in a more positive direction. One of the many MMO's that I have played was Dungeons and Dragons online and I can tell you that it is the best FML Community I was ever a part of. What made it so was everyone talked to each other like adults and people were allowed to have different opinions without being made fun of or mocked. Communication from the development team there was a key to this as they would be active and also letting people know that all signs were being considered for feedback although that did not guarantee necessarily they would be put into the game.

 

That letter to an amazing Community atmosphere and the forums where if you did have someone who was behaving in an uncouth manner people from both sides of an argument which shout those people down and then get back to their debate. It led to Atmosphere where no debate was ever so divisive that both sides couldn't put down their arguments for a minute to call out and shot down someone who is behaving in an unprofessional and bullying manner.

 

What I will say is the Keystone for that was indeed the developers who again let everyone know repeatedly over time that all opinions on all facets of the game were considered and that just because people were debating two different things doesn't mean that ideas from either side wouldn't be considered. It led to a ceiling where there was less of one side is right in the other side is wrong deal and more of a we see both sides and there's good points to be taken from each deal.

 

Therefore neither side felt like they lost in terms of developer attention but both sides felt listen to too. It's almost an art form how those developers were able to do that.

 

If that is what you want to bring to this game then I fully encourage it. But realize that you developers will be the anchor for that and how you reply in your posts will matter greatly in terms of influencing Community feedback and mood. I hope you are up for that challenge but I will say you seem like you are and I am rooting for you if that's where you want to take this game.

Edited July 1, 2017 by ZionHalcyon

When we switch from Vitiate to Valkorian, the name changes, the appearance changes, the personality changes. At some point, you change so much the characters may as well cease to be the same person, no matter how much logic you believe there to be between the transition.

 

Even assuming that 100% of complaints would be removed in the post explaining the reasoning between the character's evolution between the two, I can't help but wonder whether the story would have changed much, if at all, were Valkorian to not be Vitiate but a separate character altogether.

 

Who instead of continuing on some master plan, simply noticed the destruction of Ziost from his seat on the Eternal Throne and finally decided to see what this backwater part of the Universe was up to. How much more interesting it would've seemed to me if we were tempted not by the same being who wanted to destroy all life in the universe moments before, and who we constantly expected betrayal from, but someone who was a legitimate ruler of a peaceful nation, who felt that the best way to deal with the mess of a democracy in the Republic and the harsh Autocracy and backstabbing environment of the Empire was to simply conquer them with military might so that they might know the same measure of peace and stability of Zakuul.

 

Better to me is of course not better to someone else. And looking at KotFE and KOTET as standalone story I enjoyed when I played it. As a continuation of the story I'd invested myself when I started playing a few days before the Makeb expansion, it did feel disjointed, and to my taste needlessly so.

When we switch from Vitiate to Valkorian, the name changes, the appearance changes, the personality changes. At some point, you change so much the characters may as well cease to be the same person, no matter how much logic you believe there to be between the transition.

 

Even assuming that 100% of complaints would be removed in the post explaining the reasoning between the character's evolution between the two, I can't help but wonder whether the story would have changed much, if at all, were Valkorian to not be Vitiate but a separate character altogether.

 

Who instead of continuing on some master plan, simply noticed the destruction of Ziost from his seat on the Eternal Throne and finally decided to see what this backwater part of the Universe was up to. How much more interesting it would've seemed to me if we were tempted not by the same being who wanted to destroy all life in the universe moments before, and who we constantly expected betrayal from, but someone who was a legitimate ruler of a peaceful nation, who felt that the best way to deal with the mess of a democracy in the Republic and the harsh Autocracy and backstabbing environment of the Empire was to simply conquer them with military might so that they might know the same measure of peace and stability of Zakuul.

 

Better to me is of course not better to someone else. And looking at KotFE and KOTET as standalone story I enjoyed when I played it. As a continuation of the story I'd invested myself when I started playing a few days before the Makeb expansion, it did feel disjointed, and to my taste needlessly so.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with this. Nothing Charles said removes the disjointed nature of going from the story up through Ziost, and then jumping to Knights of the Fallen Empires storyline.

 

If this is what they want to commit to, then they need to fully commit 100% and go back into the vanilla story and make tweaks and additions and drop hints and clues that this is what's going on overall to make the transition seem far less disjointed.

I think it's mostly the older audience not getting what Star Wars has become..

 

Could be. I'm belonging to that older generation. I'm just not used to a story like the story of KOTFE (didn't get into KOTFE still because of that).

 

 

My really personal problem is that, that the SWTOR story begins small - but turns out to become an more and more BIGGER THAN LIFE story over the years (and the class stories as well).

 

I do know that BIGGER THAN LIFE is an very, very, very important rule of american ( ! ) proper storytelling.

However, I do not know whether people outside of the american culture want this, too.

Take Superheroes, for example. Okay, many other Star Wars fans I know of like them very much, but I never liked them - even as a child. I them just far too much extrovert. There was nothing serious and nother silent about them.

They were just nothing but BIGGER THAN LIFE. And therefore not believable. For me, at least.

 

I'm sure these days that I'm not the norm. Not at all. I was just too much intellectual and art oriented. I wanted serious stories for escapism - believable stories. I just can't believe Superheroes, because they feel so much alien to me. Not believable in a normal citizen's town.

I was for more interested in the iconic "Reluctant Hero". The "hero against will". The people who don't want to be heroes.

 

KOTFE very much plays like BIGGER THAN LIFE. Everywhere. It has a great story, but around any corner it screems THIS IS BIGGER THAN LIFE into my face. I don't want that. I want a silent, a believabvle story. A story I can resonate with. And, since I'm not a Superhero, I can't resonate with it.

 

Luke Skywalker was at first the iconic Reluctant Hero. He later became a bigger her than he wanted to be - because he was the only one capable of that (and, of course, because of the way George Lucas wrote the story).

What I could resonate with was his dpth as a character, I could deeply resonate with his wounds. His inner wounds. He was kind of a "broken hero", and I liked it : He became a hero ALTHOUGH his wings were broken ( after a pop song : "Take / these broken wings / and learn to fly with them [...] " ) .

Darth Vader was an even more broken hero - so much broken he could almost never return at all. His breath became mechanical, and only Emotions helped him to become the hero - back - again ...

 

The original Star Wars movies were to me a mixture of :

- Wonders

- new, non-human creatures ( Greedo's first speech, anyone ? )

- adventures

- character development.

 

Unfortuinatzely, KOTFE has nothing of that. Although the story became more believable in some points (the Asylum), it became more unbelievable in other points. And more unbelievable especially in those BIGGER THAN LIFE points.

 

I always wanted a more slow approach in SWTOR. Advanbcing to the top was a bit too fast for my taste even in the class stories. I didn't want my character to *himself* become BIGGER THAN LIFE that fast. I wanted more minor Flashpoints like Hammerstation and Athiss and Mando Raiders - showing what was going on in that galaxy elsewhere. Being at the end and doing Hammerstation ? NO, that wouldn't fit together, because my character would be much too much over-qualified for that. Hammerstation is very clearly a "beginner's course". Everyone can feel it, I assume.

 

In Fantasy RPGs, I love Drakensang 2 partly because it is so much UNLIKE the old system of High Fantssy (A)D&D. It doesn't give me gazillions of Experience Points, it doesn't have prices of 100 Gold Coins even for a bottle of simple Beer ... It has only a little bit of money for the character, so that he hast to more or less fight for his living - and even do "fed exquersts" to get some money at all. It doesn't give me lots of Experience Points, either.

TL;DR : Everything in Drakensang is so much more *believable* because it is Low Fantasy.

 

But most american Fantasy (Dragon Age) and Sci-Fi (ME) storytelling seems to be based on the culture of extrovert storytelling :

- It must be for Extroverts.

- The story in itseldf must be Extrovert; an introvert story is stupid, hollow and dumb, because there never happens an really interesting thing.

- It must give LOTS of money, because hgetting only a few coins andto actually have to work for a living is sdtupid, hollow and dumb.

- The amount of Experience points must be in the thousandfs even better even in the ten thousands , because getting only a few hundred is stupid, hollow and dumb.

 

KOTFE and late game SWTOR actually feels to me like that. And that is why I don't like it.

I'm not playing Hello Kitty instead, because that's a game I wouldn't want to play.

Instead, I'm playing Stardew Valley instead, bought Undertale recently, and as having fun playing Tropico 1 last night. And of course Drakensang 2 : The River Of Time - an introvert game for intriovert players.

 

I'm getting old, and my taste has changed. That's why I believe that I don't belong to the norm at all in these forums.

 

Then, Vitiate abruptly stops the war, proposes a treaty claiming seemingly-random planets, and starts the Cold War. An obscure step in his plan to complete the ritual? Makes sense, though if we look at how old Valkorion's children appear to be, they'd be getting born right around this time... coincidence?

 

So, all of this leads to a perfectly reasonable question: why didn't we just come out and say this in the game?

• First, we only have so much room to tell a story, so we have to pick what seems most crucial. If a detail isn't vital to understanding the plot or really entertaining or personal, then we don't have time to spend talking about it. Maybe we assessed things wrong, or aimed to cover too much ground in too little time so too much was left out - perfectly fair feedback, and something I would certainly take moving forward. But in principle, there will always be details we don't explain purely because we don't have time to do so.
  
• Beyond that, I don't like explaining every single detail of everything anyway. I think it's boring. It's boring to write, and it's (almost always) boring to experience as a player. It's fun to read in a Wookieepedia article sometimes! But I don't think it's the job of the story to lay out every single thing (the movies certainly don't do so). Plus...
  
• Mysteries are fun, and I like leaving at least a few things up to players to work out, theorize, or decide for themselves. Surely it's more fun to leave some things to the imagination?
  
• Selfishly, it's good for us as writers to leave some things vague so that we can expand or change them later. For example, I never said anything about Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion's original body anywhere up above, because I think it'd be a pretty cool plot element to explore someday. Maybe we won't get around to it, maybe we will, but if it's something that we can't give a lot of love now and want to do later, I won't hesitate to leave it out so that we have room to do so. Plus, as this thread plainly demonstrates, people don't like it when you retcon past details, so if those details aren't there to retcon...
  
• Lastly, and this is specific to this particular situation, but the only real source that could give the player all of this information directly is Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion himself. There's clearly no reason he would tell someone about a lot of these things if his goal is to seduce and destroy them, so we used more indirect means to reference them where it made sense.
  

 

So, there's my giant post about Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion and our reasons for going about it as we did. Having a reason to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do, of course, so I'm happy to hear everyone's feedback and take it in mind going forward. But, as usual, please be cool about it and be respectful to one another

 

Though as others have clarified, I haven't been the Lead Writer since late 2015

 

 

Thanks for this short story on Valkorian. You should upload it to his Wookipedia profile (if it isn't already there with all details)!

 

I have a few comments and questions regarding the story:

- Revan states more than once (on the Malestrom Prison flahspoint and on the Revan book), that he tried to convince the Emperor against invading the Republic over the centuries.

The book shows that, while Valkorian probed his mind, he fed him back with fear from the Republic, making he believe that a new war would bring the Empire to the same end of the Great Hyperspace War. This made Valkorian work on improving the empire forces and delayed the war for some centuries.

On the Malestrom Prison flahspoing, he once again states that he tried to convince the Emperor that "peace was in his best interest".

Here is the question: Does these facts still hold in the story? Why didn't Valkorian never mention Revan our their past disputes?

 

- The story details are very nicely told through the chapters! And they definitively leaves many topics open new EU content, such as books, comics, RPG stories,... I do hope to see more of them soon, the Old Republic was the best story era for many of us here.

 

- A third party coming into the story once in a while is always nice to shake things a bit and introduce a fast growth in the known galaxy. KOTFE and KOTET did this very elegantly.

I do agree with the many players that Republic vs Empire is still the core of the Star Wars universe and things should always come back to that.

Iokath started doing that very nicely, keep up the good story coming! (And, please, don't let the evil minds over there keep poisoning the great story with mindless grinds for paid dailies that made some many people hate it before knowing it!

For me, KotFEET didn't work. Not because of the lore behind it, because I'm one of those people who don't care much about that.

I DO care about what happens to my characters. ALL my characters and their stories and their companions.

KotFEET doesn't work for most of my characters. Light or dark or die-hard Empire or goody two-shoes Jedi... very few of them ever wanted to be even close to the kind of power the Outlander-Commander-Empress should wield. Not even in name with Lana and Theron actually running things.

 

If I look past that, KotFEET still didn't work for me. There was too little actual gameplay where we could have seen just how evil (or not!) Valkorion or Arcann or Vaylinn were considered by both Zakuulans and afflicted Rep/Emp citizens. Instead time and effort and money was spent on cutscene after cutscene featuring this dysfunctional family--which our characters had no ingame excuse for knowing.

 

And the companions... The reason for them disappearing made sense, sure. But there should have been a solid plan in place for how they were going to be brought back before they were sent away. ALL of them. 80% less Arcann/Vaylin squabble again-cutscenes in exchange for more companions coming back and sidequests that show just how crazy Vaylin has become? That would have worked so much better for me.

 

So for me, the background lore, while somewhat interesting, doesn't matter nearly as much as how it is told together with gameplay and player agency. KotFEET just didn't hit most of those notes for me, and even if it could have for a couple of playthroughs, the storytelling was way too linear for me to want to repeat it.

Hi Keith,

 

I think you did great in supporting Charles, especially from some nasty attacks. Though as mentioned by others guess it should have been done in a more private way. Still I respect your choice and I certainly get why you did it. Personally I would have been way less tolerant towards some players. But I guess different temper...

 

A good PR agent would have told you to write something along: Guys we truly appreciate your feedback and rest assured every single bit of detailed input will be dissected and took into account to make the game better. Now as I personally work with Charles on a daily basis I can assure you there's no more dedicated person to SW and SWTOR than him. Am I always amazed by not only his wast knowledge of SW but also his ability to deliver high quality story in regards of all the constraints and last minute shifts he and his team has to cope with.

 

We all know story is a matter of personal perspective and preference. Now on the interned we tend to forget there are people behind words. As such I'd please ask you to consider this when answering on the forums, refraining from harsh comments. Again your feedback is appreciated and our aim is to deliver content you love and bring as many more players as possibly we can!

 

May the force be with you!

.

 

Now we all know people do appreciate the increase in communication and all the details, so back to the basis if you don't mind.

.

.

Players still posting are frustrated..

Years of wrong decisions, sometimes backed up by half backed explanations or poor statements eroded the players patience.

In the last X-Pack I personally saw a shift and a new paradigm. Many players that have been subscribed continually since launch posted for the first time on the forums to mention they are done with the game.

Also I noticed people that continually supported the game whatever bad the decisions started criticizing it.

 

Then Charles post can feels like an attempt to justify elements and shifts that makes no sense in many players mind. In a game with happy players, it would have been fine. Though here it mostly added some fuel to the fire. To me the biggest error was mentioning to keeping things unexplained and that it's not fun writing details.

 

Finally players are passionate, especially true with MMO ones that spent way too more time in the virtual world.

Look, I saw players cry when they removed the Creature Handler in SWG with the NGE.

I mean people get that attached to their virtual characters and pets.

 

All in all if the story, the quantity and quality of the content answered the players expectations, you would see way less negative comments.It's the past that brought you here, now the climb will be harder than ever. Would be way easier to make a new game than fixing this one for sure.

Edited July 1, 2017 by Deewe

So, there's my giant post about Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion and our reasons for going about it as we did. Having a reason to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do, of course, so I'm happy to hear everyone's feedback and take it in mind going forward. But, as usual, please be cool about it and be respectful to one another

 

*applause*

Sorry, but while in spirit I understand, saying what Keith said never goes over well. It reads exactly like "you don't have the right to criticize if you've never made a game."

 

Does Charles, Keith or Musco go to where you work and tell you how to do your job? How would you feel if they did? I guarantee you wouldn't like it. You can give constructive criticism of the story, the game, whatever that you pay for and leave it at that. Trouble is, you don't leave it at that. You seem to take things very personally.

Valkorion

 

Thanks for this insight... it was a great read, although imo y'all should have taken more time to flesh out some of these facts (especially in KotET) so the story would have flowed better. I also think there should have been separate storylines for force users & non force users. And lastly... aside from the missing companions, my biggest complaint about KotFE/KotET was

 

 

Personally, I loved the class stories, I REALLY enjoyed SoR, and I mostly enjoyed the KotFE story (KotET seemed rushed and half done, and no companions returned which was a huge turn off for me). And I look forward to the next story expansion in this game. Just please take the time to make it as epic as we know y'all can do.

However, gamers have played a great many games over their lives, and while not all of them appreciate the hard work that goes into it, many do, despite never having been a part of the game making process, have a unique perspective that often those who develop these video games lose sight of, even if they are gamers themselves - They know what they like, they know what's good and what isn't generally, and they are passionate.

 

See, the old "those who haven't done it shouldn't criticize" argument, no matter what form it takes or whether it is insinuated or flat said, always backfires. ALWAYS.

 

^ This.

 

Since I came back Keith has been on a Straight A streak with all his posts.

 

This veiled "don't criticise if you haven't done it" comment just dumped the average to a C+.

 

All The Best

This isn't about hiding behind a defensive wall, it's about treating others (not just the Dev Team), with respect and allowing them to provide their viewpoints without being mocked and mistreated. Not everyone likes to be bashed around and for many, they simply don't participate which narrows the view to just a few players. That's not healthy for our game, either.

 

Keith, could you and your staff have the same policy please? I've tried to go into arbitration three times previously over the lack or respect your staff has towards your players. Thanks.

 

Oh and I'll take that public apology from when you came after me now.

Edited July 1, 2017 by dr_mike

Does Charles, Keith or Musco go to where you work and tell you how to do your job? How would you feel if they did? I guarantee you wouldn't like it. You can give constructive criticism of the story, the game, whatever that you pay for and leave it at that. Trouble is, you don't leave it at that. You seem to take things very personally.

 

You must not have read any of my follow-up posts. Because your tone is also something that if Keith is being honest is not appreciated. One can gather from your post that if you do not go lock step in with the development team that you therefore are unwelcome here.

 

Tuning out negative feedback from people passionate about the product you provide is a recipe for disaster for any company. If you want to step off your soapbox and try rephrasing in a more respectful tone I'll address you. In the meantime, one of my previous posts where I explained why developers shouldn't take the tone that you just took with me properly rebuts how you phrased that.

 

You're talking about me taking things personally but you just made it personal yourself. I on the other hand I'm talking about the game.

Keith, could you and your staff have the same policy please? Thanks.

 

I'll take that public apology from when you came after me now.

 

You know, I feel like this team really wants to communicate with us but by God they really need someone who's an expert in marketing and PR with regards to the masses to figure out how not to keep stepping in it over and over again and someone to pull them back when they cross that line and either intentionally or unintentionally insult the people playing their game.

^ This.

 

Since I came back Keith has been on a Straight A streak with all his posts.

 

This veiled "don't criticise if you haven't done it" comment just dumped the average to a C+.

 

All The Best

If I may don't take it bad ; pretty sure Keith is very well aware of the fact that some people posting here either have or have already worked in the video game industry, or writing or say movie industry. Though what you may notice those people, while also passionate, tend to be more specific in the feedback and usually respect others.

If I may don't take it bad ; pretty sure Keith is very well aware of the fact that some people posting here either have or have already worked in the video game industry, or writing or say movie industry. Though what you may notice those people, while also passionate, tend to be more specific in the feedback and usually respect others.

 

Oh how about folks who worked on vBulletin v1 when back and sit here wondering why they're running a version from 6 years ago.

 

Sorry, it;s just a pet peeve of mine. I have seen extra links in the footer.

 

edit: After Keith's post, I dont feel like hanging around today

Edited July 1, 2017 by dr_mike

Hey Charles,

 

Although a portion of this is a gold post, please read it from my perspective as a player. Thank you for taking the time to write this up. I can tell how much you wanted to explain and how diligent you were to provide the details about KotFE and KotET. Everyone has been asking for more communication from the Dev Team, and you have done just that and I know we can count on more insight from you going forward.

 

I find it strange when anyone, who's never been on a Dev Team, been a writer, had to deliver a story, work with the voice actors, adjust the dialog, make changes to the Cinematics, and keep our attention through a great story, simply brush it aside or make snide remarks. It may nor may not be what we all wanted and we all have our opinions, but personally, if I was sitting across the table from you, and you told me this story, I would be more in awe and feel very humbled to just have that opportunity.

 

Now from Keith the Lead Producer and the guy who happens to sit next to you each day, I loved reading this tonight and am extremely thankful you are on the SWTOR team. Every day I get the chance to interact with you, discuss ideas, kick around new functions and features, talk about where you want to take the story, what areas of the game we want to see enhanced, what threads we should be responding to, what we want to do at our next Live Stream or the upcoming Cantina, and more. I seriously cannot wait to give everyone more details about what we're planning and when we plan to release it.

 

I sincerely appreciate your enthusiasm for the game and your leadership. Have a fun and safe 4th of July weekend.

 

All the best,

 

Keith

 

So, what you've done here is present an argument from authority fallacy. You've just dismissed the opinions of anyone who doesn't fit your particular criteria for valid criticism out of hand and declared that the only true response should either be one of adoration, as a player, or adoration as a fellow developer. And you knew that what you were saying was inappropriate as a dev speaking to his customer base, so you changed the color of those lines to 'player', to give yourself some deniability when called on it. However, due to your current position, when posting on these forums, your posts are always from the position of a developer. You don't get to crap on critical players' heads in 'player' color and then switch back to 'dev' color on a whim.

 

There are tens of thousands of posts stretched out over the past two years outlining in exacting detail what people did or did not like about the storyline and implementation of KOTFE/KOTET, many begging for dev response or even acknowledgement. Those threads were hidden, shuffled around, or outright deleted and never addressed by the devs. If some people, now, after all that time, see the lead writer try to explain away the failures of that story and cover over the massive plot holes and inconsistencies by posting some notes he had that he thought were too "boring" to bother putting in the game for players to experience, and don't react with fawning adoration, it should hardly be viewed as "strange" and then ignored.

 

By BW's own admission, 1/3 of the Valkorian storyline was stripped away due to the poor reception of KOTFE, leading to a condensed conclusion of events in KOTET. These expansions were not resounding successes. I would think this might lead to some self-reflection that maybe -maybe- everything the writing team chose to run with wasn't gold, instead of making excuses for the shortcomings and trying to explain away glaring character and plot inconsistencies with what boils down to "writing is hard and I got bored". The actual writer's bible notes are interesting on their own, but do nothing to actually fix the dissonance between pre-KOTFE SWTOR and post-KOTFE SWTOR, especially if you're not going to go back and insert or alter content to sync the two eras of the game, because as outlined, those notes are not completely accurate to the vanilla game or it's original direction. They just aren't.

 

It would have been nice to see a post where a dev acknowledged that there actually were some issues with the product that could and should have been better handled, and that they would try and avoid falling into those same traps going forward. Instead, it's all backslapping and self-congratulations. I'm reminded of the streams, actually.

 

Moves like this burn through goodwill, Keith. From me, anyway, since maybe I'm the only one who is on the whole displeased with KOTFE/KOTET and mostly just sticks around to play Star Wars Barbie and run endless alts through the vanilla game.

 

Vitiate should never have been Valkorion. Making them the same will never really make sense, because it was something decided on years after vanilla was locked in stone. There is zero build up to it in any of the storylines, because of this. Even SoR/Ziost didn't really point to what became the Zakuul storyline, and comes across as more of a hybrid of the last assets developed by the original team married to what would become KOTFE/KOTET going forward. I think it was the decision to make the Emperor a living god and the conflating of Vitiate/Valkorion that eventually lead to all of the problems in the expansions: how companions were used (or forgotten), retcons to beloved vanilla plots and NPCs, having to give petty, human-level motivations to a living god, crushing all class stories into one, disregarding key parts of how any of them had ended, Valkorion and Family taking on too much importance to the story to the detriment of player agency.

 

Had Valkorion been a foreign threat outisde of Vitiate's plotting to eat all life, Zakuul could have been dealt with on it's own terms, without having to force vanilla plots to contort and fit with some mega plot by Vitiate that's constantly changing and makes no sense from scene to scene because he's suddenly become two completely different characters with opposite aims. If you think of KOTOR I & II as World War I, and vanilla SWTOR up through ROTHC as World War II, SoR/RotE into KOTFE/KOTET could have been the Cold War against the Soviets. Each period was just as world-changing, important, and exciting. Stalin and Co. were just has dangerous and scary as Hitler and the Nazis, only the dynamics and alliances were different. Stalin didn't need to secretly be Hitler all along, and if you were reading history as a story, it would be hugely disappointing (and nonsensical) if that turned out to be the twist.

 

I'll post a disclaimer that I don't speak for anyone else, just to make sure people who are thrilled to pieces don't think I'm speaking for them in any way, shape or form.

Do people realize that they're not being forced to play. If I worked on this game and I was in charge I'd never listen to the rude or mean people, if I did, I'd end up throwing myself off a cliff. Hats off to the team for taking this on. They are HUMAN, not bots! If you really hate it why play at all? The team has been extraordinarily gracious in this thread! Obi-Wan would be proud.

Do people realize that they're not being forced to play. If I worked on this game and I was in charge I'd never listen to the rude or mean people, if I did, I'd end up throwing myself off a cliff. Hats off to the team for taking this on. They are HUMAN, not bots! If you really hate it why play at all? The team has been extraordinarily gracious in this thread! Obi-Wan would be proud.

 

I work in Face To Face Customer Service.

 

Its the mean and nasty people you NEED to engage with - they're the people walking away not spending money that becomes my salary.

 

If the ONLY people I listened to and engaged with were the people already happy with things then I could never help my company grow.

 

All The Best

I work in Face To Face Customer Service.

 

Its the mean and nasty people you NEED to engage with - they're the people walking away not spending money that becomes my salary.

 

If the ONLY people I listened to and engaged with were the people already happy with things then I could never help my company grow.

 

Exactly. That's why I roll my eyes every time I see one of the apologists on this forum go "If you don't like it, leave!" If everyone who has a problem or a criticism with this game left, the game wouldn't stay up much longer.

Hey Charles,

 

Although a portion of this is a gold post, please read it from my perspective as a player. Thank you for taking the time to write this up. I can tell how much you wanted to explain and how diligent you were to provide the details about KotFE and KotET. Everyone has been asking for more communication from the Dev Team, and you have done just that and I know we can count on more insight from you going forward.

 

I find it strange when anyone, who's never been on a Dev Team, been a writer, had to deliver a story, work with the voice actors, adjust the dialog, make changes to the Cinematics, and keep our attention through a great story, simply brush it aside or make snide remarks. It may nor may not be what we all wanted and we all have our opinions, but personally, if I was sitting across the table from you, and you told me this story, I would be more in awe and feel very humbled to just have that opportunity.

 

Now from Keith the Lead Producer and the guy who happens to sit next to you each day, I loved reading this tonight and am extremely thankful you are on the SWTOR team. Every day I get the chance to interact with you, discuss ideas, kick around new functions and features, talk about where you want to take the story, what areas of the game we want to see enhanced, what threads we should be responding to, what we want to do at our next Live Stream or the upcoming Cantina, and more. I seriously cannot wait to give everyone more details about what we're planning and when we plan to release it.

 

I sincerely appreciate your enthusiasm for the game and your leadership. Have a fun and safe 4th of July weekend.

 

All the best,

 

Keith

 

Keith, I've been a big supporter of you from the beginning. I think you've done some smart things with this game, and I do honestly believe you are trying to turn this game in a new, better direction by listening to player feedback. Thank you for this. Please keep my positive opinion of you in mind as you read the next paragraphs.

 

I do not believe the post I have just quoted of yours was at all appropriate to post. The fact you didn't put part of it in yellow does not change the fact that it reads very much like you as the Lead Producer are directly slamming a portion of your player base--specifically, those who do not think the story told in the last two expansions was very good, or even any good.

 

I am one of the people who did not enjoy "Keeping Up With the Valkorions". I feel that story has huge plot holes and has no replay value, among several other critiques. This does not mean I have anything against Charles Boyd as a person. I just don't like the story he helped create. That's all. I'm critiquing the product, not the person who produced it.

 

Now, anyone who is personally insulting Charles Boyd as a person over the issue of not liking the story, I agree those people are absolutely in the wrong and have been very rude. However, you did not make that distinction in your post. In my opinion, you slighted and denigrated anyone who didn't like the Valkorion Family Feud story with the argument of "Well, I don't see you having done any better with your own video game!"

 

I know Charles is your co-worker and friend, and you want to defend him. That is a very noble and understandable thing to do. However, I don't think your post was the appropriate way to do it. Even if you didn't mean it in a derogatory or insulting way towards a portion of your player base (which I think you probably didn't, you seem like a cool and stand-up sort of guy), it can very easily be read that way, even by people who support you and think you're doing a good job.

 

Please reconsider what you posted and try to see it from my point of view, as well as the point of others who feel personally attacked by said post. Thank you.

Edited July 1, 2017 by AscendingSky

I did enjoy a few chapters of KotFE like the last chapter chapter 9, 6, and especially the HK Bonus Chapter but it was kinda of a dissapointment. KotET did a lot better and I love KotET better than KotFE. Sometimes I feel like certain parts from RotHC did better than KotFE. The problem is most probaly that the story barly changed at all.