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Is it wrong that, revisiting SoR, made me think what the hell went wrong w KotFE?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Is it wrong that, revisiting SoR, made me think what the hell went wrong w KotFE?
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ludoviccb's Avatar


ludoviccb
06.30.2017 , 08:55 PM | #101
The Kotfe/Kotet story arc could have worked if it was done to include the class stories instead of forcing all the classes in a story that doesn't really fit any of them.

This is how I would have done it personnally for KotFE.

For the intial chapters, I would still have 9 chapters, 3 for the Outlander (which would be either the Sith Warrior or the Jedi Knight since they are the only ones with any interactions before Ziost with the Emperor). The 1st one would cover the capture of the Outlander and contact with the Emperor, the 2nd one the escape and finding the Gravestone and the last one would cover taking the Gravestone to Odessen and it would end with the foundation of the Alliance.

For the 6 others classes, one chapter each to show what happenned to them in the 5 years and that end with a call to go to Odessen and them becoming one of the leaders of the alliance.

For the Kotfe following chapters, I would have put another 2 Outlander chapters (12 : Vision in the Dark and 16: The Battle of Odessen) and 6 chapters that are doable by one imperial and 1 republic classes.

Those chapters would be Anarchy in Paradise (chapter 10) and Profit and Plunder (Chapter 13) for the Smuggler and Agents since they are infiltration type of mission. For Profit and Plunder, I would have added a mention about needing that money to get the mandalorian on board for

For the Jedi Consular and the Sith inquisitor, I would have put Disavowed (chapter 11) and another chapter that would be about expanding the contacts on Zakuul that would result in recruiting Scorpio and learning the location of a Eternal Fleet isolated ship from Scorpio. That extra chapter would have been in between the Mandalore's Revenge and the Gemini Deception chapters.

Mandalore's Revenge (Chapter 14) and Gemini Deception (Chapter 15) for the Trooper and Bounty Hunter.

For the alerts, except getting them voiced, I would have kept them as is.

For the companions returning from the different chapters, I would have put them in the Alliance base once their chapter is completed by one toon accross the legacy and the character completed it's chapters until that character appear in the story. This would be like the Agent/Smuggler coming back to Odessen with Vette and Gault after they finished their heist and they are now in the Alliance. They would have a quest marker and could be recruited/reunited by the different classes. That way, a specific reunion scene that isn't tied up with the chapter could be implemented.

Using this method, the same overall story could have been told, but it would have kept most of the individuality of the classes.
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KeithKanneg's Avatar


KeithKanneg
06.30.2017 , 09:49 PM | #102 Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread. Next  
Hey Charles,

Although a portion of this is a gold post, please read it from my perspective as a player. Thank you for taking the time to write this up. I can tell how much you wanted to explain and how diligent you were to provide the details about KotFE and KotET. Everyone has been asking for more communication from the Dev Team, and you have done just that and I know we can count on more insight from you going forward.

I find it strange when anyone, who's never been on a Dev Team, been a writer, had to deliver a story, work with the voice actors, adjust the dialog, make changes to the Cinematics, and keep our attention through a great story, simply brush it aside or make snide remarks. It may nor may not be what we all wanted and we all have our opinions, but personally, if I was sitting across the table from you, and you told me this story, I would be more in awe and feel very humbled to just have that opportunity.

Now from Keith the Lead Producer and the guy who happens to sit next to you each day, I loved reading this tonight and am extremely thankful you are on the SWTOR team. Every day I get the chance to interact with you, discuss ideas, kick around new functions and features, talk about where you want to take the story, what areas of the game we want to see enhanced, what threads we should be responding to, what we want to do at our next Live Stream or the upcoming Cantina, and more. I seriously cannot wait to give everyone more details about what we're planning and when we plan to release it.

I sincerely appreciate your enthusiasm for the game and your leadership. Have a fun and safe 4th of July weekend.

All the best,

Keith
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Estelindis's Avatar


Estelindis
06.30.2017 , 09:58 PM | #103
Quote: Originally Posted by CharlesBoyd View Post
Since Valkorion is one of the biggest discussion points lately, and it's been a while so I feel like it's free range to discuss, I'll just lay out everything we had in mind for Vitiate/Valkorion and y'all can have something concrete to discuss and/or kick me about
Thank so much for posting this! It explains a lot. I'm going to try to keep it in mind whenever I replay the Zakuul story. I expect it'll help things to hang together better.

For the most part, the stuff you explain fits together reasonably well. The main thing that bothers me is how blastedly obvious Valkorion's intentions were in every respect. In itself, that's not too bad. Writing a genuinely surprising twist is hard. So, fine, let his eventual betrayal be obvious. I can RP some of my characters as blind to it and others as aware. But please do let us have that option! My consular fully expected that Valkorion was manoeuvering her towards the Eternal Throne solely to serve his own ends. Often, she was given the opportunity to state her distrust of Valkorion, which I truly appreciate - but I greedily wanted that option at every opportunity! For example, when Lana suggests talking to Valkorion at the start of chapter 12, it took me out of my character that she went along with it. In my mind, she distrusted everything Valkorion said. She knew he was manipulative and always motivated by self-interest. As such, she always rejected his power. Why didn't this make much of a difference?

Quote: Originally Posted by CharlesBoyd View Post
And then he arranges and guides the player in doing just that, all the while laying the groundwork for dominating their mind at the moment of their victory and commanding a newly-reshaped galaxy as a heroic liberator - an all-new experience to try out.
How can Valkorion succeed just as much at dominating the mind of a character who always accepts his power as a character who rejects it at every turn? I was particularly bothered that auto-dialogue forced my character to call Valkorion "my emperor" when she never would have said that. There was great reactivity re. how the player treated Arcann, Senya, and Koth, but seemingly little in how they treated Valkorion. As far as I can tell, reactivity amounted to nothing more than him occasionally commenting on whether you were going along with him or not. I don't remember any other differences. Shouldn't accepting or rejecting his power have mattered a lot more?
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Hudlar's Avatar


Hudlar
06.30.2017 , 10:19 PM | #104
Thanks so much for posting this, Charles. It was very helpful to have the timeline laid out like this.

For what it's worth, I enjoyed both KotFE and KotET, though I agree with the criticism that they worked much better for Force-using characters. Since I did enjoy them, I was actually kind of annoyed by the super-fast pivot back to siding with the Republic/Empire on Iokath. Like Casirabit upthread, I was playing a character who took the Alliance seriously, and he wouldn't have willingly backed either the Republic or the Empire in that situation, at least without a lot more story buildup.

Anyway, thanks again for the great post. I look forward to seeing where the story goes next.

cagthehack's Avatar


cagthehack
06.30.2017 , 10:38 PM | #105
Thanks Charles.

I enjoyed KOTFE/KOTET. I have issue with some of the mechanics (the mouse droid quest, the slow walkers, etc, etc) but all in all I like the story and pace. But you sacrificed everything I loved about the base game to deliver it.

The loss of companions hit me the hardest. But I accepted that situation assuming my companions (especially my LI) would be reintroduced in a meaningful way. They were not. None of them were. Most were cameo appearances at best. And finally getting my ship back. And it's empty. Didn't even feel like home anymore.

The other issue I had is the KOTFE/KOTET story is designed for forces users. I can't imagine running my trooper or agent through it. I won't make any sense. I'm grateful for this actually. Because although I enjoyed the story, I would not enjoy it 10 times. I've ran it twice; once with my Sith Warrior and second with my Jedi. All my other alts are just waiting. Even my other force user alts.

And from a lore POV: this expac diminishes the jedi -vs- sith paradigm. You've tried to bring that back, rather sloppily, when forcing us to choose between Empire or Republic (Iokath). But that's not the same. Now my Sith Warrior, who relished in killing Republic citizens can support the Republic. What?

I would have preferred no choice.

Al in all, it wasn't the story itself that bothered me. But everything else the expacs did. And I'm not even mentioned the gear situation (don't want to start another flame war).

Fireswraith's Avatar


Fireswraith
06.30.2017 , 10:50 PM | #106
Quote: Originally Posted by CharlesBoyd View Post

......Since Valkorion is one of the biggest discussion points lately....
Special Valkorian companion like HK-51 and Treek a possibility? Would be so cool!

MandFlurry's Avatar


MandFlurry
06.30.2017 , 10:59 PM | #107
Quote: Originally Posted by omaan View Post
TIME TO admit that players prefer republic vs empire story content rather than fighting some third party.... fighting third party content should be provided rarely as a distraction and something new, but main story content must be related to war between reps and imps
That would be Bs, as that would be a lie, a Lot of players are sick and tired of this Stupid and Pathetic Junk of a Sith Empire and Republic that are supposed to be essentially destroyed. Also, not everyone hates KOTFE and KOTET, Most of the stories are ver goog, while others were poorly implemented because of time restraints.

I can Honestly say at least half of the players would love a 3rd Faction like the Mandalorian faction, that's a fact. Good thing is they are not using that faction, instead since Lauanch and earlier in Beta the Games direction was to take down Evil beings that are destroying not just the Republic or Sith Empire, but Both factions.

The Alliance we have from KOTFE and KOTET should have been done earlier by Flashpoints and Ops, since The Dread Conflicts were a major threat to both the Republic and Sith Empire.

Making that 3rd Faction was the best thing to happen to this MMO, where both sides would, and could always do Flaspoints, Uprisings, and Op's together makes sense from the Dread Council Ops onwards.

So stop this stupid Bs that only people with small minds can think up along the line of what would be a stupid MMO it we don't have our own 3rd Faction we built. You guy have your own game, and We can have Our 3rd Faction that can still have All the Pvp , Better Ops and Flashpoints with us having a Our 3rd Factions and better stories.
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LtGeneralGezlin's Avatar


LtGeneralGezlin
06.30.2017 , 11:00 PM | #108
Quote: Originally Posted by KeithKanneg View Post
Hey Charles,

Although a portion of this is a gold post, please read it from my perspective as a player. Thank you for taking the time to write this up. I can tell how much you wanted to explain and how diligent you were to provide the details about KotFE and KotET. Everyone has been asking for more communication from the Dev Team, and you have done just that and I know we can count on more insight from you going forward.

I find it strange when anyone, who's never been on a Dev Team, been a writer, had to deliver a story, work with the voice actors, adjust the dialog, make changes to the Cinematics, and keep our attention through a great story, simply brush it aside or make snide remarks. It may nor may not be what we all wanted and we all have our opinions, but personally, if I was sitting across the table from you, and you told me this story, I would be more in awe and feel very humbled to just have that opportunity.

Now from Keith the Lead Producer and the guy who happens to sit next to you each day, I loved reading this tonight and am extremely thankful you are on the SWTOR team. Every day I get the chance to interact with you, discuss ideas, kick around new functions and features, talk about where you want to take the story, what areas of the game we want to see enhanced, what threads we should be responding to, what we want to do at our next Live Stream or the upcoming Cantina, and more. I seriously cannot wait to give everyone more details about what we're planning and when we plan to release it.

I sincerely appreciate your enthusiasm for the game and your leadership. Have a fun and safe 4th of July weekend.

All the best,

Keith
I totally agree with the bolded part, Keith. It's actually the reason why I have stopped going to the Subreddit (Nothing you can do there), or posting on the forums very rarely, as it feels like there is just a lot of negativity for something we all love (The story) and if you loved it, you are someone who doesn't understand it or likes retcons.
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Xo-Lara's Avatar


Xo-Lara
06.30.2017 , 11:03 PM | #109
Quote: Originally Posted by KeithKanneg View Post
Now from Keith the Lead Producer and the guy who happens to sit next to you each day, I loved reading this tonight and am extremely thankful you are on the SWTOR team. Every day I get the chance to interact with you, discuss ideas, kick around new functions and features, talk about where you want to take the story, what areas of the game we want to see enhanced, what threads we should be responding to, what we want to do at our next Live Stream or the upcoming Cantina, and more. I seriously cannot wait to give everyone more details about what we're planning and when we plan to release it.

I sincerely appreciate your enthusiasm for the game and your leadership. Have a fun and safe 4th of July weekend.

All the best,

Keith
Hey Keith, as the guy that sits across from him at the table, can you find a way to let the writers work on adding the other details to the story in the future? Please?
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MandFlurry's Avatar


MandFlurry
06.30.2017 , 11:12 PM | #110
Quote: Originally Posted by Estelindis View Post
Thank so much for posting this! It explains a lot. I'm going to try to keep it in mind whenever I replay the Zakuul story. I expect it'll help things to hang together better.

For the most part, the stuff you explain fits together reasonably well. The main thing that bothers me is how blastedly obvious Valkorion's intentions were in every respect. In itself, that's not too bad. Writing a genuinely surprising twist is hard. So, fine, let his eventual betrayal be obvious. I can RP some of my characters as blind to it and others as aware. But please do let us have that option! My consular fully expected that Valkorion was manoeuvering her towards the Eternal Throne solely to serve his own ends. Often, she was given the opportunity to state her distrust of Valkorion, which I truly appreciate - but I greedily wanted that option at every opportunity! For example, when Lana suggests talking to Valkorion at the start of chapter 12, it took me out of my character that she went along with it. In my mind, she distrusted everything Valkorion said. She knew he was manipulative and always motivated by self-interest. As such, she always rejected his power. Why didn't this make much of a difference?



How can Valkorion succeed just as much at dominating the mind of a character who always accepts his power as a character who rejects it at every turn? I was particularly bothered that auto-dialogue forced my character to call Valkorion "my emperor" when she never would have said that. There was great reactivity re. how the player treated Arcann, Senya, and Koth, but seemingly little in how they treated Valkorion. As far as I can tell, reactivity amounted to nothing more than him occasionally commenting on whether you were going along with him or not. I don't remember any other differences. Shouldn't accepting or rejecting his power have mattered a lot more?

This is another thing that most people Don't get.

1) It's the fact that he is like a God no doubt, and kill us at any turn, but because Our Characters were not afraid to stand up to him and take our Saber or shots, actually take a toll on his own mission, he's suddenly interested in this 1 being ( Our Character).

2) He always see's everyone probably as a Guinea pig from my Psych observations, He likes to watch, and Not take over. Sometimes he will come to us as he see's himself and Power of All things and asks us if we want to use his power. We Are his test Subjects. He can of course come and go at any time he pleases, but can sense from the other side of the galaxy where we are on getting His Will done, though we don't know we are being set up.

It is very common for Demi-gods to just see us all as guinea pigs and use us as lab rats as well.
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