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Class Changes: Madness Sorcerer / Balance Sage


EricMusco

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Respectfully, without addressing the Force negative rotation that hinders the spec in sustained fights and cuts down the use of Lightning strike or all together (also forcing the use of consumption) this doesn't change much at all. Broken rotation is still broken and should have been addressed first.

 

Aside from the listed changes, the team is looking into the "Force negative" nature of the rotation also. It is possible changes could happen there for 5.3 as well, but nothing is settled yet which is why I didn't include it above. I will let you know if/when I get more info.

 

-eric

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Then look at the Virulence changes. It got nerfed to roughly 9890 DPS from 10900 DPS. Meaning 9890 should be the new 97,5% of target DPS.

Result: 10143 DPS = 100%

Trying to justify that they know what they are doing is a futile attempt.

 

I agree that one still appears out of balance compared to the commando, vanguard, shadow, and sage. Those 4 appear in line with each other. All I can say is that those 4 don't appear to have rotation changes, when they changed the gunslinger the rotation changed so we may have to throw in more flurry of bolts than we think.

At the end of the day I hope your correct but it doesn't appear to me that you are.

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Aside from the listed changes, the team is looking into the "Force negative" nature of the rotation also. It is possible changes could happen there for 5.3 as well, but nothing is settled yet which is why I didn't include it above. I will let you know if/when I get more info.

 

-eric

 

Please make it happen in 5.3. People won't last till another patch.

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Then look at the Virulence changes. It got nerfed to roughly 9890 DPS from 10900 DPS. Meaning 9890 should be the new 97,5% of target DPS.

Result: 10143 DPS = 100%

Trying to justify that they know what they are doing is a futile attempt.

 

Yeah no way this (madness) will pull 10100 dps with these changes unless the deathmark %s stack (150% on first dot etc) which I do not believe they do.

 

We can accept bioware that your combat team sets certain "dps" number targets for class categories, what is unacceptable then is when the actual numbers after the changes do not align with those targets. You had enough time (months) to fix this.

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This Changes dear Bioware will do nothing for the class.

Our Force Managment ist bad with Madness. If you die in a Operation as a Madness Sorc or Sage you have more then 15 seconds to reign your force. You have to spam this Utility (Sorry dont know the english Name). In this Time you cannot make damage. You know this Bioware? :(

 

You nerf our Selfheals our Bubble and then so small buff for Sage/Sorc.

 

Do you know Bioware that our Deahfield was once 8 meters?

Do you know our small Selfheals from our dots was once 50 or 100% more?

Do you know our 2 dps Specs are 8 Months in PVE and PVP in the Top 3 of worst specs?

A Dot sentinal or Marauder do more Selfheal then my Madness Sorc. I know its Group Heal. Please Tell me who is better for a Op Group Dot Marauder or Dot Sorc after 5.3? You take the Class with more dps and with more Group Utilitys.

 

Please explain me why you nerf the bubble for 5%? Are we the Heal to Full Class Number 1?

 

Please look at our Utility Skillfull and Compare this to other Classes? You know what im mean? You know PVP? The Root Kick Need to be in the Skillfull Tier. Like the Assasin. :eek:

 

Sorry for my bad english. :o

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Yes, I tried ranked with a balance sage, always picked first, tunneled into oblivion, then my team had to manage a 3v4. But that's not something balancing numbers can predict. Tanks will ward the healer, not the DPS. Healers are gonna heal the tank, not the DPS.

Dps sorcs could certainly be made viable for the PVP Arenas, if they could deal damage under pressure, which they currently cannot. As it stands, dps sorcs can only free cast and then kite when attacked, otherwise they are toast.

Boosting the static barrier, rather than nerfing it, could help sorcs stay in the fight a bit longer, rather than just run away at the first sign of trouble.

Edited by ViktorAres
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Aside from the listed changes, the team is looking into the "Force negative" nature of the rotation also. It is possible changes could happen there for 5.3 as well, but nothing is settled yet which is why I didn't include it above. I will let you know if/when I get more info.

 

-eric

 

This is *****. Its barely possible to do nim with one sorc some time. But with two it's impossible!!!! if u making class balance where is this **** balance while jugg venge will do 11k by pressing only three buttons or lethality op. I love sorc. I dont want to reroll on assassin or jugg or mara how i suppoused to play like this. madness should be in same position as io merc and viru sniper wat the hell are u doing !? what if in my team both players play sorcs how we have to raid with this **** damage out put

Edited by Darrahsrhaw
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Uh.

 

None of you are going to be able to get jobs in the game development business again after prospective employers see how many bees you've thrown in our proverbial bonnets.

 

So are sorcs basically the gimp from pulp fiction? Can you put gags, whips, and handcuffs on the cartel market so I can REALLY RP these "buffs"?

Edited by Hoppinswtor
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Then look at the Virulence changes. It got nerfed to roughly 9890 DPS from 10900 DPS. Meaning 9890 should be the new 97,5% of target DPS.

Result: 10143 DPS = 100%

Trying to justify that they know what they are doing is a futile attempt.

 

If that is seriously your justification for "target dps" then you need to stop, for 2 reasons.

 

1. You should never use the absolute luckiest parses for balance, you should be using average parses.

 

2. Virulence has a "dummy rotation" that is very much different than a rotation that you can't use in operations that heavily utilizes roll and does significantly more dps. It's similar to balancing engineering dps based on roll dps on dummies, you don't account for it. Yes it will make for higher dummy parses but it is impractical for real fights.

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Let's do the math, shall we:

 

5 percent nerf to static barrier

10 percent nerf to dark heal (when you factor in force management issues)

25 percent nerf to resurgence (when you factor in force management issues)

 

5 percent buff to affliction

5 percent buff to creeping terror

5 percent buff to demolish

10 percent buff to force leech (heal + dmg)

 

What does this spell, ladies and gentlemen? N to the E to the R to the F.

 

I'd be content with these "changes" if you just gave me back my 8-meter deathfield.

Edited by Hoppinswtor
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We sorcs/sages do not want to be op, we just want to have at least one spec (it should be 2 if balanced well actually)in a strong position for PvE Nim/mm raiding so we don't quit the game. Right now the dps specs have too many liabilities for this, and the heal spec will probably be mediocre as a choice for endgame progression after the changes. And these changes to madness still keep it in the realm of "mediocre" to "extremely sub-optimal" for endgame raiding and content I am afraid. Please listen to the player-base. If we are to have nerfed healing and survivability as to all the nerfs to madness since 4.0, at least make us good glass-cannons at dishing out dps. These changes are too small to bring us in line to dps-wise to the burst melee specs of the game currently. If your combat team believe it is sufficient, please Eric let us know, what is the target dps number we are expected to pull on average (46%) crit ratio for 5 min on a single target is after this change on madness. We know carnage and concealment op pull around 10K currently given such a crit number. And we don't want any spec (burst melee) to be adjusted down they are fine, especially concealment op which I believe is in a perfect place right now, but if your chart for dps hold true, we should be parsing as much as a concealment op after these changes, maybe a little less but within the 1% ballpark. Edited by ottffsse
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As a madness main sorc since 1.0 these changes are at least a step in the right direction. I would have perfered a calculated damage increase to force lighting to average out the DPS instead but thats because i never liked using lighiting strike in rotation to start with. As for everyone complaining about force management I think a reduced cost of Force Leech would do the class wonders in longer sustained fights (Master Mode raids)

 

Target dps seems to be aimed at HM dps checks. Which isnt the hardest PvE content in the game which seems like a rather large design flaw

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As a madness main sorc since 1.0 these changes are at least a step in the right direction. I would have perfered a calculated damage increase to force lighting to average out the DPS instead but thats because i never liked using lighiting strike in rotation to start with. As for everyone complaining about force management I think a reduced cost of Force Leech would do the class wonders in longer sustained fights (Master Mode raids)

 

Target dps seems to be aimed at HM dps checks. Which isnt the hardest PvE content in the game which seems like a rather large design flaw

 

Makes me wonder if they intend to soon put in a new tier of gear (say in August/september), so all the DPS classes will basically be back to where it is currently for the nerfed classes, or better for the buffed classes.

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Makes me wonder if they intend to soon put in a new tier of gear (say in August/september), so all the DPS classes will basically be back to where it is currently for the nerfed classes, or better for the buffed classes.

 

it's like credit card debt

 

just did more proper number crunching and it's basically a 2.5 percent dps gain (2-3 percent depending on deathmark consumption). Combine that with the 5 percent selfheal nerf (closer to 10 percent due to force management issues) and you are actually overall nerfing one of the worst pvp classes (and specs).

 

again, good luck finding work in this industry after this game dies.

Edited by Hoppinswtor
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Well... There is some question that I think should be answered.

First... I know that you're doing changes based on a "target dps", so you're just fighting PvE dummies to see the result of your changes ? Or do you really test these changes with "real" content ? (At least Veteran Operation and some intense warzone/arena).

 

We all know that you make these changes with "tons of data" that you probably took somewhere in a dark and unknown place ( :p ) but, as we all know, data isn't enough to do cool things in a game with such broken class balance. Sadly, what we're seeing now is that none of the "class change team" really know what they want to achieve with specific class (Nerf dark heal and static barrier then 5% up Force Leech... It may be for survival purpose, but in the end it doesn't change anything and is even worst for lightning spec).

I'd even say that they don't know how to play these class... At least in content other than heroic2+ quest or story mode KOTFE/KOTET chapters.

 

Sorry for the lack of trust, but we cannot see the devs team like "good" or "average" swtor players with what you've done for now. ^^ You're taking each class separately and doing balances for a target dps that only some class can reach with proper rotation. I'd really like to see if you've done some testing to every changes you've made this far. And I mean real testing, not PvE Dummies : Veteran Operation, at least some warzone against good players...

Also if you used specific rotation when doing so or if you just made some rollface against your keyboard. (It may work with carnage marauder and arsenal merc, but it don't work with everything.)

 

In short, show us that you've really thought about these changes and made some test that proved this was the right thing to do. :p For now, all we're seeing is some changes that are mostly made for the purpose of changing things. :D

 

Like always, you're saying that our feedback is something important, but we would love to have YOUR feedback on what we said about every changes and how you're gonna adjust things with said feedback. :p

 

And now, back to madness sorc'. :D

yeah, fine, more damage is good... Well... 5% is like... a tiny buff... But it's better than nothing !

And again, the big concern with the spec is Force management. If you've ever played madness sorcerer in a long fight (and I hope you've already done it !), you'd know that you're going to be short with your Force reserve at some point. This happens generally way before other class or spec and is something that should be focused on. :p

 

*put keyboard away before writing another text-brick* :rak_03:

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Hey folks,

 

Below you will find the upcoming changes for Madness and Balance coming in Game Update 5.3:

 

-eric

 

Well, refreshingly honest, I like it. A negligible dps buff coupled with a significant defense nerf, meaning Sages/Sorcerers' are meant, by dev design, to remain at the bottom of both PvP and PvE for the foreseeable future, and fed only enough buffs to avoid hindering on other classes' fun during group Operations. Coupled with further dev honesty about cancelled story content and still missing companions, it paints a clear picture.

 

 

 

 

I recently ran through KotFE and KotEE with a Warrior and a Consular, and story-wise, it's much more enjoyable with the Warrior, who gets Vette in the story, force-chokes everyone in sight and forms an alliance with Empress Acina. Consular gets nothing in the chapters, no dedicated scenes or companions back (not even during the Satelle Shan or Saresh reunions), and even during Alliance Command missions he only gets Qyzen the unvoiced one-eyed-lizard back. While I haven't tried it, playing with a Hunter/Agent/Trooper/Knight would probably be much more interesting, mainly due to the old companions bringing flavor to the story. Consular and Sorcerer didn't get any dedicated story moments in the last two expansions, and apparently that won't change for awhile due to their specific content getting canned.

 

 

 

 

I'm guessing players are being encouraged, mechanically speaking, to play other classes instead whose stories are more detailed. This is very good to know in advance. I'll just retire my Consular and try bringing a Hunter or Agent through Zakuul/PvP instead.

 

Thank you for the clarification, Eric.

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Aside from the listed changes, the team is looking into the "Force negative" nature of the rotation also. It is possible changes could happen there for 5.3 as well, but nothing is settled yet which is why I didn't include it above. I will let you know if/when I get more info.

 

-eric

Just so you know, resource management is a problem for many other specs besides Madness/Balance:

  • Any Trooper/Hunter spec except Gunnery/Arsenal (especially AS/IO)
  • Scrapper/Concealment (a little bit)
  • All the Gunslinger/Sniper specs except possibly SS/MM
  • Serenity/Hatred (though we'll see how this improves in 5.3)

It's particularly noticeable in Balance/Madness only because your autoattack's range isn't as large as the others, should you need to fall back on it due to running out of energy.

Go to page 7 of the thread where you announced which specs were getting changes; you'll find my suggestions for improving this issue for many of the specs I listed above (I've run the numbers on this, which is how I'm so confident and detailed in my suggestions):

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=923981&page=7

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these changes are ruining pve progression groups that are finally able to do this stuff with out being in top 5% your sm stuff is stale ,boring and been way to dumb down and now finding people to do harder content will be even harder imo the nerfs are too much and buffs not enough to even out the nerfs can see a new mmo in my future after 31/2 years just not enough to stay anymore sad thought was actually gonna get better u want to fix pvp make pvp gear again and stop ruining pve 6 months of work on a progression toon gone and most pvpers will just switch to what ever toon ends up being op this time
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To add:

I suggest adjusting the cooldowns of the key abilities to bring them in line with each other:

  • Vanquish/Demolish: 15sec
  • Force Serenity/Force Leech: 12sec
  • DoTs: 18sec

Moreover, a 5% increase to occasional selfheals is hardly a survivability increase. As others have said, Balance/Madness needs more substantial healthsteal/defensive buffs to be viable in PvP.

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I completely agree with the general sentiment here, that these buffs are nowhere near where they should be. I played madness for years and had to switch to Assassin for PvE progression, once 5.0 hit. Please Bioware -

I have faith in you - don't mess this up.

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To people who complain about energy management - why didn't you ask BW fix "force-master" gear? I mean bonus for 4 pieces - "Reduces cost of... Force Lightning... by 2..." It's already in game and it's doesn't work since release of "force-master" gear with current bonuses.

Check your combat logs, force lightning consumes 36 force, like you dont have gear at all.

Edited by BlevatToshnit
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To people who complain about energy management - why didn't you ask BW fix "force-master" gear? I mean bonus for 4 pieces - "Reduces cost of... Force Lightning... by 2..." It's already in game and it's doesn't work since release of "force-master" gear with current bonuses.

Check your combat logs, force lightning consumes 36 force, like you dont have gear at all.

 

Class set bonuses should be an EXTRA / Buff to the class .... NOT a 100% necessity to FIX a class ....

 

i ALLWAYS hate it soo much when playing other mmos that use set bonuses and people telling other to just get this and this set and will be better or this and this Bonus fixes that and that...

 

NO !!!! a class should be fine from the get go....

Edited by Zolxtren
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