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casirabit's Avatar


casirabit
06.23.2017 , 09:40 AM | #331
Quote: Originally Posted by Sargrith View Post
I've seen more than a few people say they liked how companions were returned via chapters. I actually don't like getting them back that way. Because it creates a roadblock in the story if you don't want that companion back. I would rather alerts that I can ignore or bypass.
A better way of handling that in the story sense is give you an opportunity to reject the companion instead of just alerts. The story for a lot of us is better, if they give an indepth story for that companion but there needs to be a way to reject a companion instead of accepting them.
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menofhorror's Avatar


menofhorror
06.23.2017 , 09:49 AM | #332
Quote: Originally Posted by TUXs View Post
I wonder how much of that is because it was so rushed though? If Charles actually had to cut 2/3 of his story, it seems like much more could have been done to bring the story better closure. I obviously can't speak for Charles, but I have to assume that he's not entirely pleased with the story as it is either. I actually feel sorry for him, as a writer, having your work judged based on a 1/3 completed story isn't exactly fair to him.
It is what it is though. But to be fair I highly doubt that even with the full trilogy they planned they could have explained Vitiate being main antagonist to the jedi knight, being trapped! in Voss because of Baras (which is why the hand sends you there), also requiring a ritual to bring a new voice into existence when in 3.0 it showed that Vitiate can just casually control anyone he wants, AND at all the same time being Valkorion and a family father and ruler to Zakuul?

I am sure Charles tried and all and I understand that they had to change their plans with the story because class stories got scrapped but there is no way he could have explained that plothole.

EzioMessi's Avatar


EzioMessi
06.23.2017 , 09:57 AM | #333
Quote: Originally Posted by menofhorror View Post
It is what it is though. But to be fair I highly doubt that even with the full trilogy they planned they could have explained Vitiate being main antagonist to the jedi knight, being trapped! in Voss because of Baras (which is why the hand sends you there), also requiring a ritual to bring a new voice into existence when in 3.0 it showed that Vitiate can just casually control anyone he wants, AND at all the same time being Valkorion and a family father and ruler to Zakuul?

I am sure Charles tried and all and I understand that they had to change their plans with the story because class stories got scrapped but there is no way he could have explained that plothole.
Well, on Voss, Vitiate's Voice was trapped by Sel Makor, who's as much of an Eldritch Abomination as he is, so he probably had to concentrate most of his power in that Voice, not on his Dromund Kaas Voice, or on Valkorion. And thanks to that, he was weakened enough for the Jedi Knight to strike down, which could very easily explain away him not being able to puppeteer an army to stop the JK, and the JK and T7 were both immune to his puppeteering anyways. As for Valkorion on Zakuul, it's been stated that he would go kinda "comatose" ish for months at a time, implying he had a finite amount of attention to divide amongst his Voices, with Valkorion being no exception.
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menofhorror's Avatar


menofhorror
06.23.2017 , 10:01 AM | #334
Quote: Originally Posted by EzioMessi View Post
Well, on Voss, Vitiate's Voice was trapped by Sel Makor, who's as much of an Eldritch Abomination as he is, so he probably had to concentrate most of his power in that Voice, not on his Dromund Kaas Voice, or on Valkorion. And thanks to that, he was weakened enough for the Jedi Knight to strike down, which could very easily explain away him not being able to puppeteer an army to stop the JK, and the JK and T7 were both immune to his puppeteering anyways. As for Valkorion on Zakuul, it's been stated that he would go kinda "comatose" ish for months at a time, implying he had a finite amount of attention to divide amongst his Voices, with Valkorion being no exception.
That's all assumptions on your part because guess what, the plot itself doesn't tell us anything. But here is a question to you: Why did the sith warrior have to kill the voice on Voss? It was in order for the emperor to get a new voice. But here is the plothole: If the emperor can have multiple voices at once then why did the sith warrior need to go kill the voice on Voss?

Also implying isn't enough. The story itself should explain or give enough clues and hints for explanation.

ZionHalcyon's Avatar


ZionHalcyon
06.23.2017 , 10:06 AM | #335
Quote: Originally Posted by menofhorror View Post
That's all assumptions on your part because guess what, the plot itself doesn't tell us anything. But here is a question to you: Why did the sith warrior have to kill the voice on Voss? It was in order for the emperor to get a new voice. But here is the plothole: If the emperor can have multiple voices at once then why did the sith warrior need to go kill the voice on Voss?

Also implying isn't enough. The story itself should explain or give enough clues and hints for explanation.
Exactly. If the story needs players to come up with pretzel logic to explain its inconsistencies, then the story itself failed. And there is no way to spin that.

menofhorror's Avatar


menofhorror
06.23.2017 , 10:10 AM | #336
Quote: Originally Posted by ZionHalcyon View Post
Exactly. If the story needs players to come up with pretzel logic to explain its inconsistencies, then the story itself failed. And there is no way to spin that.
Agreed.

But I do appreciate Charles coming out and saying their original plans. He didn't have to do that and it's really that they are so open but I do think they have to think of a new strategy regarding the story. The story is definitely a very hard aspect since there can go so much wrong and we are all only human so we can only try.

But bringing back companions like Elara and Dorne will be a mistake too. You can have companion-centric "chapters" without another plot distracting.

CharlesBoyd's Avatar


CharlesBoyd
06.23.2017 , 10:10 AM | #337 This is the last staff post in this thread.  
So as you can all see from reading this thread, opinions tend to vary, which makes assessing story feedback very difficult

Story is a personal and emotional experience by design, so feelings about it run high and can be polarizing. It is impossible to change an experience like that retroactively through arguments or debates, so I would urge everyone to be respectful, share your thoughts, and not make it about being "right" or "wrong".

As a point of clarification, when I mentioned that we condensed the story based on feedback, it was not that we felt the overall story of KOTFE/monthly chapters were received poorly at large (quite the opposite, really) it was that the pacing of the story was widely seen as too slow/drawn out. We took that feedback, assessed our plans, ultimately agreed, and made a change.

One last note about numbers: it's commonly asked how we balance feedback against data and metrics, so this is a great place to use as an example. Numerically speaking, KOTFE and KOTET were our most successful expansions by a very significant margin. We didn't change anything in the story based on numbers (the numbers would've said to keep doing exactly what we were doing), we changed them based on the passionate feedback we received from y'all.

So keep it up! But, y'know, be cool to each other in the process
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SFDebris's Avatar


SFDebris
06.23.2017 , 10:13 AM | #338
As someone who went from committed player to occasional dabbler because of KOTFE, I wanted to re-address the points brought up here.
Quote: Originally Posted by CharlesBoyd View Post

B) The most common issues that we saw from the community feedback after KOTFE and the first few monthly chapters were:
  1. The story felt dragged out (monthly chapters in particular)
  2. At least partly due to #1, the companion-focused chapters were not as well-received as the KOTFE ones (although desire to get companions back remained high).
  3. Many players felt that there weren't enough choices in the storyline with big enough impacts/consequences, or that those impacts/consequences were delayed so far that they didn't feel meaningful or connected.
  4. Some folks simply didn't like the core premise. Introducing a new empire, expanding on Vitiate/Valkorion, players frozen in carbonite for five years, missing companions, etc.

1) Personally, this had no effect on my viewpoint.
2) It depended. Kaleo's was long and tedious, while Gault and Vette's was fun.
3) Somewhat, see below.
4) I was hesitant, but open-minded.

Choices mattering is actually a subset of the larger issue which led me to despise KOTFE, which is that "choices matter" means "wrong choices are punished." The close of the final chapter is the most glaring, the game actively seeks to humiliate the player whenever they don't follow the "pure light side Jedi" path. You already begin with a scripted step into a trap, then every time the player tries to do anything they want to (that isn't what a Jedi Knight would do) they fail at it. And THEN Koth uses his own personal matter transporter to get on board your most important war asset in the middle of a battle and steals it, just in case you didn't already feel like a failure and an idiot already. THEN adds literal insult to this injury by getting yelled at by Shan for trying to shoot down your mortal enemy.

The problem with KOTFE was failure at the most fundamental level, it - was - not - fun. "Choices mattered" only meant you got to choose how you hated yourself while you played. Did you break character just to not have to deal with BS, or did you play as your character would and watch them get humiliated and fail? This is antithetic to the entire purpose of a game, your crowning moment when you rolled credits was the closest I ever got to permanently quitting the game. The point which ultimately stopped me was that I have the Sith Inquisitor story to analyze, which convinced me to stay.

Let me repeat that: The only thing that stopped me from quitting was that someone paid me not to.

To give an example of what I'm referring to with "pure light side Jedi," the bombing of Zakuul had a choice matters of either a) nothing changes, or b) you lose Koth and he magically sneaks in and steals your ship. That's not "choice matters," that's "WRONG choices matter, and are punished." What (a) should have been was that Arkhan had more resources to throw at you because they were not diverted towards dealing with the fallout of your attack, allowing, say, Lana to be kidnapped at the climax, and the future chapter is now saving Lana or recovering the Gravestone (this could be easily implemented as identical chapters save for the climax). That says that choices matter, that you were now choosing either to limit your warfare (but learn that someone you care about will suffer terribly because of it) or be prepared to wage absolute war (but alienate your allies). That, at least, says that your role as leader comes with burdens, that you will have to make personal sacrifices depending on how you choose to wage war. As presented, it says "tow the line, or be humiliated."

What I have seen since has been a step in the right direction, but the bitter taste KOTFE has left in my mouth has yet to be washed out completely. And when I do give my look at Sith Inquisitor, I will express at length the level of my disappointment with that story.

Not because it had monthly chapters

Not because of companion chapters

Not because of the core premise

And not even, specifically, about choices mattering

But because KOTFE forgot that Star Wars: The Old Republic, is supposed to be fun.
* * *

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menofhorror's Avatar


menofhorror
06.23.2017 , 10:17 AM | #339
Quote: Originally Posted by CharlesBoyd View Post
So as you can all see from reading this thread, opinions tend to vary, which makes assessing story feedback very difficult

Story is a personal and emotional experience by design, so feelings about it run high and can be polarizing. It is impossible to change an experience like that retroactively through arguments or debates, so I would urge everyone to be respectful, share your thoughts, and not make it about being "right" or "wrong".

As a point of clarification, when I mentioned that we condensed the story based on feedback, it was not that we felt the overall story of KOTFE/monthly chapters were received poorly at large (quite the opposite, really) it was that the pacing of the story was widely seen as too slow/drawn out. We took that feedback, assessed our plans, ultimately agreed, and made a change.

One last note about numbers: it's commonly asked how we balance feedback against data and metrics, so this is a great place to use as an example. Numerically speaking, KOTFE and KOTET were our most successful expansions by a very significant margin. We didn't change anything in the story based on numbers (the numbers would've said to keep doing exactly what we were doing), we changed them based on the passionate feedback we received from y'all.

So keep it up! But, y'know, be cool to each other in the process
Very interesting.

Thank you for your output on this topic!

Ottoattack's Avatar


Ottoattack
06.23.2017 , 10:22 AM | #340
Quote: Originally Posted by ZionHalcyon View Post
Exactly. If the story needs players to come up with pretzel logic to explain its inconsistencies, then the story itself failed. And there is no way to spin that.
Logic, I think we passed that point a long time ago