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Alssaran's Avatar


Alssaran
06.22.2017 , 01:22 PM | #211
Quote:
I absolutely love where GC and gearing is right now...for PvE.
I agree. GC at it's current iteration is alright, provided PvP gearing gets tweaked just a tiny bit. Supplementary boxes would never have been an issue. It was the totalitarian reliance on these boxes for set gear that soured the cake for me.

Edit:

Quote:
The argument that "some people like it" doesn't hold water, because more people don't, because that ratio IS measurable by anyone willing to look, and because the game commits the cardinal sin of literary world building - you do not betray your own story.
The first part is what I mentioned a few pages ago, admittedly with some more text. Often enough, whether a feature is liked or disliked really depends on focus groups and what kind of features the player likes. Heck, liking a story might even depend on the person enjoying story at all.

However, KotET wasn't really that binary for most of the conversation cycle. Most of this forum was filled with criticism, sometimes valuable and constructive, and sometimes inflamatory. I've heard people leveling alts to replay the class stories dozens of times in the past months. I've never heard someone say they would love to replay KotET though. Agreed, it's a limited sample size when my own perception is concerned, but the forums, reddit, twitter and guild chats across servers do paint an interesting picture of indifference to KotET. Nobody is faulted for liking it, but please don't downplay the criticism it received.

OneHit's Avatar


OneHit
06.22.2017 , 01:41 PM | #212
Quote: Originally Posted by ZionHalcyon View Post
And to be clear - I don't fault anyone who likes KotFE. Different strokes for different folks.

But don't misrepresent or else intentionally downplay that those people are (or at least were) in the minority, and the majority by all measurements hated the new story direction.

And by challenging the developers to put out a better, more cohesive story to the one we all fell in love with pre-KotFE, the underlying idea is that it ends up being worth it because you may be able to get some of the players who left BACK - likely slowly at first, but via word of mouth, you may be able to build the population back up, and more players playing benefits EVERYONE.
Same. And I don't ever feel like I've been "what this game needs is less story. F those guys". I've always been like "good for them. I want ops!" Till one of them pops off about silent majorities and how the chapters were so worth sacrificing end game content. It wasn't. Even a lot of the influencers were complaining about the story at the end of kofte. And they get free stuff for promoting the game!

So ya. I think a fair compromise for everyone is SoR type expansion. Or a rise of the hutt cartel. Or more and I'd pay the standard $60 expansion fee every year.

scardera's Avatar


scardera
06.22.2017 , 02:03 PM | #213
it has been 5 years player ask for a credit legacy bank and we are still waiting

Deewe's Avatar


Deewe
06.22.2017 , 02:18 PM | #214
Quote: Originally Posted by TUXs View Post
NONE of that was Keith's idea...I blame Ben for the entire Ziost/KOTFE/KOTET fiasco. Every bit of it! And for every bit of terrible communication we've suffered through the past 4 years - since Keith, Charles AND Eric, have all posted more in the time that Keith has been in charge, than during the entirety of Ben's reign.

Keith better not get discouraged...he's already done more good for this game in a few months, than Ben did in years. If he starts to stray, I'll be sure to let him know
I would not go into blaming Ben so much because we don't really know how much his hands where tied by James and other executives. Still guess your last sentence and the one below paint a pretty good portrait of the game and the communication.
Quote: Originally Posted by Going View Post
No disrespect to ben but holy crap does this new producer have some great direction. I haven't seen communication like this since launch.
Now to me, the extract of the below comment are the very substance of the problem with SWTOR story writing atm
Quote: Originally Posted by ZionHalcyon View Post
Sorry that I am so hard nosed about this, but the truth is that in a sense, it almost goes back to the debates about the old Star Wars books that are legends territory now - some people were just content to read those books and have the names of the characters be the same as the names of the characters in the movies, and therefore loved the stories. Others however, would notice that for instance, "Luke Skywalker" was acting in a manner that wasn't how the movie character would act, or that scenes in some books seemed to be written around a character saying his "catch phrase" rather than serving the story. It was why Timothy Zahn always got such high praise - he wrote all the Star Wars characters as they would have been in the movies, and actually captured the spirit and essence of Star Wars in his books. As an author, he was true to the integrity of the overall Star Wars story.

Likewise here, the story BioWare told was rich, compelling, and flat out captured the spirit and essence of Star Wars - right up until KOTFE, where you are pulled right out of the previous plot and put into a setting, scenario, and story that feels very generic, very forced, and almost screams "please forget about everything before KOTFE! Those stories never really happened!" in terms of the overall tone, at least for those who loved Ziost and everything that came before.
To this issue the solution is, as well said below, not to bend and accept average/mediocre content.
Quote: Originally Posted by ZionHalcyon View Post
And to be clear - I don't fault anyone who likes KotFE. Different strokes for different folks.

But don't misrepresent or else intentionally downplay that those people are (or at least were) in the minority, and the majority by all measurements hated the new story direction.

And by challenging the developers to put out a better, more cohesive story to the one we all fell in love with pre-KotFE, the underlying idea is that it ends up being worth it because you may be able to get some of the players who left BACK - likely slowly at first, but via word of mouth, you may be able to build the population back up, and more players playing benefits EVERYONE.
Although as long as they keep delivering one fits all classes story they won't make it great, even if it better fits a true SW setting.

Same thing goes for PvP and PvE you have to distinguish them at some point. Although that pertains to another topic.
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casirabit's Avatar


casirabit
06.22.2017 , 02:21 PM | #215
Keith,

I wanted to touch on something in the bad feeling podcast, I have a scoundrel healer. It has been my main since launch and it is fun and sure it doesn't have the strong healing like a sage does but I do love it. My boyfriend told me that it can be hard to actually learn the healing of a scoundrel but once you take the time to learn it, you can be just as awesome a medic than one of the easier one. I appreciate hearing that someone else likes their scoundrel healer. So +100000 for you.
A girl should be two things: classy and fabulous. A girl should also always be a lady even when arguing. If you like redheads click my Referral link Referral: http://www.swtor.com/r/VkfKqj

kodrac's Avatar


kodrac
06.22.2017 , 02:28 PM | #216
Quote: Originally Posted by ZionHalcyon View Post
So basically what you're admitting to is that you have an obscene level of bias, did see all the people leaving but don't care. In other words you're saying I'm right but you don't care. Good to know. I'm sure that's useful feedback so as to not consider your opinion, since you seem to be very acutely aware you are in the minority and simply don't bother to read things that disagree with you.
Zion, bro, just stop engaging this individual. It's a waste of time. I'll refer you to this thread since you've been gone a while:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=923534

He's as selfish as they come. No need wasting your breath over.

kodrac's Avatar


kodrac
06.22.2017 , 02:30 PM | #217
Quote: Originally Posted by TUXs View Post
NONE of that was Keith's idea...I blame Ben for the entire Ziost/KOTFE/KOTET fiasco. Every bit of it! And for every bit of terrible communication we've suffered through the past 4 years - since Keith, Charles AND Eric, have all posted more in the time that Keith has been in charge, than during the entirety of Ben's reign.

Keith better not get discouraged...he's already done more good for this game in a few months, than Ben did in years. If he starts to stray, I'll be sure to let him know
Agreed!

CharlesBoyd's Avatar


CharlesBoyd
06.22.2017 , 02:37 PM | #218 Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread. Next  
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSpuds View Post
Would it be possible for us to have a genuine example of that, even if it is from something a few years back.

So we can see a) what was planned, b) what feedback was received, c) how that feedback led to changes, d) what was actually released.
This is a great chance to talk about story, and how folks' feedback on story is integrated. Let's use KOTFE, the monthly chapters, and KOTET as the example.

A) The original plan was that we would have a trilogy of "Knights of" expansions focused on dealing with Valkorion and his Eternal Empire, with episodic chapters between them. The major story beats would occur in the expansions, while the episodic chapters would be just that: episodic, mostly stand-alone beats focused on returning companions and side stories.

B) The most common issues that we saw from the community feedback after KOTFE and the first few monthly chapters were:
  1. The story felt dragged out (monthly chapters in particular)
  2. At least partly due to #1, the companion-focused chapters were not as well-received as the KOTFE ones (although desire to get companions back remained high).
  3. Many players felt that there weren't enough choices in the storyline with big enough impacts/consequences, or that those impacts/consequences were delayed so far that they didn't feel meaningful or connected.
  4. Some folks simply didn't like the core premise. Introducing a new empire, expanding on Vitiate/Valkorion, players frozen in carbonite for five years, missing companions, etc.

C) Changes that were made as a result of that feedback:
  1. We compressed the story such that it would be completed in Knights of the Eternal Throne.
  2. Later monthly chapters were modified to focus more on the core storyline, and less on companion returns.
  3. The writers constructed the storyline of KOTET specifically to offer bigger choices that would pay off in visible and interesting ways.
  4. This was the core creative vision of the entire thing, so there wasn't much changed here - it wouldn't really be feasible. That's not to say that we ignored this feedback or don't take it seriously; it's just that any creative endeavor has some core concept at its heart that can't be changed without scrapping everything. This was the story direction that excited us as creators and fans, so it's the one we pursued even as we made the above changes along the way.

D) The end result: the overall storyline was cut down by more than a third so that it would play out more quickly, while simultaneously introducing more choices and consequences. Companion returns had to be put on the backburner to achieve these changes, and my original plan to do entire chapters for each of them just aren't feasible at this point, so we're currently working on plans to get them back as expediently as possible. (If I sound a little sad about that part in particular, I am, but I think it's perfectly reasonable that folks are out of patience on that one )

Overall, story is one of the most difficult areas to implement feedback, since we've usually constructed the next several beats by the time players see any of it and provide feedback. But hopefully this post helps to demonstrate that we still try very hard to implement feedback-driven changes into story regardless of the challenges.

Keep the great posts and thoughts - and especially feedback! - coming
Charles Boyd | Creative Director
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JakRoanin's Avatar


JakRoanin
06.22.2017 , 02:55 PM | #219
Writing a video game and actually making it work is a creative process and speaking as an amateur writer, nothing creative ever goes exactly as planned.

DarthSpuds's Avatar


DarthSpuds
06.22.2017 , 03:02 PM | #220
@Charles.

Thank for the attempt of an example of the kind I asked for.

But I'd love to know what meaningful choices and consequences do YOU think were in KOTFE /KOTET?

There were none.

With the exception of the presence or absence of a few Companions EVERYONE ended KOTET exactly the same as everyone else. Even the "choice" on your leadership style once on the eternal throne was effectively meaningless.

Where was the choice on Iokath to tell both the Empire and the Republic to "get off my planet", as I am now the commander of the most powerful force in the galaxy.

Given what happened the first time I approached Iokath why would I be moronically stupid enough to go in with the entire Eternal Fleet, without first sending a few probes to see what would happen - we know for a fact the Eternal Fleet has access to probes, it was a probe encounter that kicked off KOTFE Ch.1.

There have been no meaningful or intelligent choices anywhere in KOTFE/ET or Iokath so far.

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